Butch5 Posted January 15, 2014 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 559 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 136 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/09/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/01/1962 Share Posted January 15, 2014 See, I don't know where I stand with this. John 3:16 says that only those that believe shall have eternal life. But if Hell means that the body and soul remains conscious after entering the lake, doesn't that mean that the non-believers also have eternal life, even if it is excruciatingly painful? The Bible says that God is love in 1 John 4:8, and I know that the cost of sin is death, but Paul never said that the cost of sin is eternal suffering. The Bible says that there will be eternal suffering in Hell, but maybe it just means that the consequences of denying Jesus are eternal- in this case an eternal death. Matthew 10:28 says that we should fear God, because He can destroy both the body AND the soul. But then in Matthew 13:50, Jesus said there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth, so only conscious people can weep and gnash teeth. So if people don't atone through Christ, wouldn't that mean that the destruction of body and soul is the debt paid, because that's the only way the unsaved can pay back the debt? If we look at the Law of Moses, God didn't order that the animal be slowly drained of it's blood during sacrifices, in order to prolong the pain. Maybe I'm just going a bit off there though. We all know that all mankind has sinned, and Jesus will come to destroy evil at the Second Coming. We were told that we were objects of wrath, who never did good, never seeking God, so He sought us out. We were, by all intensive purposes, breaders and multipliers of sin. If Hell is eternal punishment, then evil hasn't been destroyed, just contained Also, maybe 'death' doesn't mean what we think. Maybe God doesn't view the 'death' that we call 'death' as 'death' at all. I don't think that death means to be absent from God in Hell, because there's no scripture to support it. ALL things were created by God, that includes Hell, so God must preside over it. It's Christ that throws the Devil into Hell, so Christ must be Lord over Hell. Paul Walsher said that Hell isn't Hell because of the absence of God. It's Hell because of the presence of God and the absence of Grace. To be honest, I don't know. There's verses that support a conscious suffering (with the gnashing of teeth), and those that support soul destruction (the second death.) Hi Alan, The idea of eternal torment requires that one lives forever or is immortal. The Bible does not teach that man is immortal but rather that God (The Father) alone has immortality. The idea of eternal punishment is not only not biblical it impugns the character of God. You pointed out that the wages of sin is death. This is what God told Adam He told Adam in the day he ate from the tree of knowledge he would die. I was Satan who told the lie. He said, they would not surely die, but be as gods. That's what he immortal soul idea is, it's being immortal like God. Man being immortal in and of himself is a lie from Satan. As Scripture says, God (the Father) alone has immortality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertStone Posted January 16, 2014 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 12 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/16/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 16, 2014 Hi everyone, The words Eternal and Everlasting describe attributes of God. When it says Eternal life and Eternal damnation, it is synonymous with God's life and God's damnation. In other words, the kind of life that God lives and shares with us, or the kind of damnation that God gives to those who deserve such a fate. Now, the second death is for those who reject God and therefore cannot have Eternal life - to be with God and enjoy that existence, but must be sent off to another place of existence. This would be Satan and his followers from when they were cast out of heaven, and those of us on earth who willfully rebel against God and reject Him outright. These are the ones who would go to outer darkness and gnash their teeth forever, etc. It seems that all others will go on to enter into the presence of God, the kingdom of God, or the many mansions of God, as the scriptures say. What these mansions are and what it entails is hard to tell, but Paul gives a description of the kinds of resurrected bodies we will receive in 1 Corinthians 15. He tells of bodies being like the glory of the sun, or the moon, or the stars - each one having different glories. These are those that are saved from the second death and go on to live in God's presence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted January 16, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,135 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted January 16, 2014 See, I don't know where I stand with this. John 3:16 says that only those that believe shall have eternal life. But if Hell means that the body and soul remains conscious after entering the lake, doesn't that mean that the non-believers also have eternal life, even if it is excruciatingly painful? The Bible says that God is love in 1 John 4:8, and I know that the cost of sin is death, but Paul never said that the cost of sin is eternal suffering. The Bible says that there will be eternal suffering in Hell, but maybe it just means that the consequences of denying Jesus are eternal- in this case an eternal death. Matthew 10:28 says that we should fear God, because He can destroy both the body AND the soul. But then in Matthew 13:50, Jesus said there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth, so only conscious people can weep and gnash teeth. So if people don't atone through Christ, wouldn't that mean that the destruction of body and soul is the debt paid, because that's the only way the unsaved can pay back the debt? If we look at the Law of Moses, God didn't order that the animal be slowly drained of it's blood during sacrifices, in order to prolong the pain. Maybe I'm just going a bit off there though. We all know that all mankind has sinned, and Jesus will come to destroy evil at the Second Coming. We were told that we were objects of wrath, who never did good, never seeking God, so He sought us out. We were, by all intensive purposes, breaders and multipliers of sin. If Hell is eternal punishment, then evil hasn't been destroyed, just contained Also, maybe 'death' doesn't mean what we think. Maybe God doesn't view the 'death' that we call 'death' as 'death' at all. I don't think that death means to be absent from God in Hell, because there's no scripture to support it. ALL things were created by God, that includes Hell, so God must preside over it. It's Christ that throws the Devil into Hell, so Christ must be Lord over Hell. Paul Walsher said that Hell isn't Hell because of the absence of God. It's Hell because of the presence of God and the absence of Grace. To be honest, I don't know. There's verses that support a conscious suffering (with the gnashing of teeth), and those that support soul destruction (the second death.) Hi Alan, The idea of eternal torment requires that one lives forever or is immortal. The Bible does not teach that man is immortal but rather that God (The Father) alone has immortality. The idea of eternal punishment is not only not biblical it impugns the character of God. You pointed out that the wages of sin is death. This is what God told Adam He told Adam in the day he ate from the tree of knowledge he would die. I was Satan who told the lie. He said, they would not surely die, but be as gods. That's what he immortal soul idea is, it's being immortal like God. Man being immortal in and of himself is a lie from Satan. As Scripture says, God (the Father) alone has immortality. Butch 1 Cor 15:44b - If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. All will be resurrected,Some to everlasting Life and some to everlasting punishment, 2 Thes 1:9 - They shall be punished with everlasting destruction and be shut out from the presence of the Lord and the majesty of his power. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Izzel Posted January 16, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 514 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 62 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/01/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/07/1989 Share Posted January 16, 2014 (edited) See, I don't know where I stand with this. John 3:16 says that only those that believe shall have eternal life. But if Hell means that the body and soul remains conscious after entering the lake, doesn't that mean that the non-believers also have eternal life, even if it is excruciatingly painful? The Bible says that God is love in 1 John 4:8, and I know that the cost of sin is death, but Paul never said that the cost of sin is eternal suffering. The Bible says that there will be eternal suffering in Hell, but maybe it just means that the consequences of denying Jesus are eternal- in this case an eternal death. Matthew 10:28 says that we should fear God, because He can destroy both the body AND the soul. But then in Matthew 13:50, Jesus said there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth, so only conscious people can weep and gnash teeth. So if people don't atone through Christ, wouldn't that mean that the destruction of body and soul is the debt paid, because that's the only way the unsaved can pay back the debt? If we look at the Law of Moses, God didn't order that the animal be slowly drained of it's blood during sacrifices, in order to prolong the pain. Maybe I'm just going a bit off there though. We all know that all mankind has sinned, and Jesus will come to destroy evil at the Second Coming. We were told that we were objects of wrath, who never did good, never seeking God, so He sought us out. We were, by all intensive purposes, breaders and multipliers of sin. If Hell is eternal punishment, then evil hasn't been destroyed, just contained Also, maybe 'death' doesn't mean what we think. Maybe God doesn't view the 'death' that we call 'death' as 'death' at all. I don't think that death means to be absent from God in Hell, because there's no scripture to support it. ALL things were created by God, that includes Hell, so God must preside over it. It's Christ that throws the Devil into Hell, so Christ must be Lord over Hell. Paul Walsher said that Hell isn't Hell because of the absence of God. It's Hell because of the presence of God and the absence of Grace. To be honest, I don't know. There's verses that support a conscious suffering (with the gnashing of teeth), and those that support soul destruction (the second death.) Man will cease to exist burnt to a cripse Edited January 16, 2014 by Izzel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butch5 Posted January 16, 2014 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 559 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 136 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/09/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/01/1962 Share Posted January 16, 2014 See, I don't know where I stand with this. John 3:16 says that only those that believe shall have eternal life. But if Hell means that the body and soul remains conscious after entering the lake, doesn't that mean that the non-believers also have eternal life, even if it is excruciatingly painful? The Bible says that God is love in 1 John 4:8, and I know that the cost of sin is death, but Paul never said that the cost of sin is eternal suffering. The Bible says that there will be eternal suffering in Hell, but maybe it just means that the consequences of denying Jesus are eternal- in this case an eternal death. Matthew 10:28 says that we should fear God, because He can destroy both the body AND the soul. But then in Matthew 13:50, Jesus said there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth, so only conscious people can weep and gnash teeth. So if people don't atone through Christ, wouldn't that mean that the destruction of body and soul is the debt paid, because that's the only way the unsaved can pay back the debt? If we look at the Law of Moses, God didn't order that the animal be slowly drained of it's blood during sacrifices, in order to prolong the pain. Maybe I'm just going a bit off there though. We all know that all mankind has sinned, and Jesus will come to destroy evil at the Second Coming. We were told that we were objects of wrath, who never did good, never seeking God, so He sought us out. We were, by all intensive purposes, breaders and multipliers of sin. If Hell is eternal punishment, then evil hasn't been destroyed, just contained Also, maybe 'death' doesn't mean what we think. Maybe God doesn't view the 'death' that we call 'death' as 'death' at all. I don't think that death means to be absent from God in Hell, because there's no scripture to support it. ALL things were created by God, that includes Hell, so God must preside over it. It's Christ that throws the Devil into Hell, so Christ must be Lord over Hell. Paul Walsher said that Hell isn't Hell because of the absence of God. It's Hell because of the presence of God and the absence of Grace. To be honest, I don't know. There's verses that support a conscious suffering (with the gnashing of teeth), and those that support soul destruction (the second death.) Hi Alan, The idea of eternal torment requires that one lives forever or is immortal. The Bible does not teach that man is immortal but rather that God (The Father) alone has immortality. The idea of eternal punishment is not only not biblical it impugns the character of God. You pointed out that the wages of sin is death. This is what God told Adam He told Adam in the day he ate from the tree of knowledge he would die. I was Satan who told the lie. He said, they would not surely die, but be as gods. That's what he immortal soul idea is, it's being immortal like God. Man being immortal in and of himself is a lie from Satan. As Scripture says, God (the Father) alone has immortality. Butch 1 Cor 15:44b - If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. All will be resurrected,Some to everlasting Life and some to everlasting punishment, 2 Thes 1:9 - They shall be punished with everlasting destruction and be shut out from the presence of the Lord and the majesty of his power. In Christ Montana Marv Hi MM, I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Spiritual is an adjective, it describes qualities of the resurrected body. That's not speaking of man being immortal. Paul states plainly that the Father alone has immortality. He said that God gives life and used the present tense. Therefore the only was person can live forever is if God continually gives them life. The Scriptures are clear that the wages of sin is death. There is nothing in Scripture that says the wages of sin is eternal burning. The Lake of Fire which is where the burning takes place is called "The Second Death". It would not be called the second death if no one died. If people going there lived forever it wouldn't be a death. It's called the second death because the wicked die there thus experiencing a second death. The Scriptures don't teach eternal punishment. There are few passage that seem to accommodate that idea if one approaches the Scriptures with the idea already in mind. However, those passages can also be understood differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanLamb0986 Posted January 16, 2014 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 51 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/10/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 16, 2014 See, I don't know where I stand with this. John 3:16 says that only those that believe shall have eternal life. But if Hell means that the body and soul remains conscious after entering the lake, doesn't that mean that the non-believers also have eternal life, even if it is excruciatingly painful? The Bible says that God is love in 1 John 4:8, and I know that the cost of sin is death, but Paul never said that the cost of sin is eternal suffering. The Bible says that there will be eternal suffering in Hell, but maybe it just means that the consequences of denying Jesus are eternal- in this case an eternal death. Matthew 10:28 says that we should fear God, because He can destroy both the body AND the soul. But then in Matthew 13:50, Jesus said there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth, so only conscious people can weep and gnash teeth. So if people don't atone through Christ, wouldn't that mean that the destruction of body and soul is the debt paid, because that's the only way the unsaved can pay back the debt? If we look at the Law of Moses, God didn't order that the animal be slowly drained of it's blood during sacrifices, in order to prolong the pain. Maybe I'm just going a bit off there though. We all know that all mankind has sinned, and Jesus will come to destroy evil at the Second Coming. We were told that we were objects of wrath, who never did good, never seeking God, so He sought us out. We were, by all intensive purposes, breaders and multipliers of sin. If Hell is eternal punishment, then evil hasn't been destroyed, just contained Also, maybe 'death' doesn't mean what we think. Maybe God doesn't view the 'death' that we call 'death' as 'death' at all. I don't think that death means to be absent from God in Hell, because there's no scripture to support it. ALL things were created by God, that includes Hell, so God must preside over it. It's Christ that throws the Devil into Hell, so Christ must be Lord over Hell. Paul Walsher said that Hell isn't Hell because of the absence of God. It's Hell because of the presence of God and the absence of Grace. To be honest, I don't know. There's verses that support a conscious suffering (with the gnashing of teeth), and those that support soul destruction (the second death.) Hi Alan, The idea of eternal torment requires that one lives forever or is immortal. The Bible does not teach that man is immortal but rather that God (The Father) alone has immortality. The idea of eternal punishment is not only not biblical it impugns the character of God. You pointed out that the wages of sin is death. This is what God told Adam He told Adam in the day he ate from the tree of knowledge he would die. I was Satan who told the lie. He said, they would not surely die, but be as gods. That's what he immortal soul idea is, it's being immortal like God. Man being immortal in and of himself is a lie from Satan. As Scripture says, God (the Father) alone has immortality. Butch 1 Cor 15:44b - If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. All will be resurrected,Some to everlasting Life and some to everlasting punishment, 2 Thes 1:9 - They shall be punished with everlasting destruction and be shut out from the presence of the Lord and the majesty of his power. In Christ Montana Marv Hi Montanta. I think you and I have a very different definition of 'destruction.' 2 Thessalonians 1:9 doesn't support eternal punishment, it very clearly supports 'everlasting destruction.' That which has been destroyed has ceased to exist. Something that doesn't exist cannot be punished or rewarded. The reason Paul felt the need to add the everlasting part is because nobody faces everlasting death yet. The whole human population will be resurrected and judged, therefore this first death isn't eternal. After the judgment of the 'quick and the dead', upon which everyone must be temporarily resurrected to receive God's judgment, then the sentencing will be eternal. The reason that the destruction of the soul is considered eternal punishment is for reasons I've just mentioned. Everyone is promised to be raised on the last day for judgment, but once the body and soul is destroyed as punishment, the consequences will be eternal- hence 'eternal punishment.' This isn't my view of Hell, I don't know whether it's eternal suffering or soul destruction, as I've said, there's verses that support both. I have faith in the Cross, redeemed by Grace. So I guess I'm never going to find out, as I hope nobody else on this forum will. Unless we witness the destruction of those outside Christ. Given the option, I think I'll give that a miss, far too terrifying to think about, let alone witness! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts