Intercession by saints - is only God omnipotent?

[enoob57]

The idea of praying to the dead assumes that the the dead are conscious which is expressly denied in Scripture

Luke 16:23-24

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off,

and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that

he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented

in this flame.

KJV

that would mean Jesus is lying here wouldn't it? Love, Steven

[OakWood]

As an ex-Cathloic, I've never completely given up asking the departed saints to pray with me and for me. God would have no problem allowing them to hear our prayers if He so desired. If we ask a friend to pray for us or to pray along with us is he or she "interceding" for us? If a person here can pray for us, why not a departed saint who is with God face to face? I never thought of them interceding as Jesus does.

 

Did you miss my point about omnipotence?

[WillfromTexas]

 

The idea of praying to the dead assumes that the the dead are conscious which is expressly denied in Scripture

Luke 16:23-24

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off,

and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that

he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented

in this flame.

KJV

that would mean Jesus is lying here wouldn't it? Love, Steven

 

 

 

No.  It means Jesus is telling a parable and you take it literally.  The irony Jesus was trying to use seems to be lost on most.  Jesus was explaining to the Jews that being a descendent of Abraham or being rich were NO guarantee of salvation.

 

It amazes me that so many astute bible scholars still believe in 'immortal souls', immortal spirits, etc...  The Bible clearly states where all the dead are...  They are DEAD!  Death is refered to as sleep repeatedly.  The Bible also states that only God has natural immortality.  We are bestowed immortality when we become like Jesus at the resurrection of the saints.  Why does Jesus need to raise all the dead to eternal life or judgement if you think we're already spooks in Heaven?

 

1 Timothy 6:16

Who alone has immortality [in the sense of exemption from every kind of death] and lives in unapproachable light, Whom no man has ever seen or can see. Unto Him be honor and everlasting power and dominion. Amen (so be it).

 

I know it is jarring theology but it is straight from the Bible.  Immortal soul theology was taught to me as well before I studied the scriptures for myself and found out we are VERY mortal beings, what constitutes life, and where the dead are now.

 

Study the 'Life Principle'.  Without God's breath of life and your physical body- you cease to exist.  When you die the breath of life returns to God but it isn't 'you' it doesn't contain your memories or personality.  The combination of God's breath+physical body=a living soul.  To ancient rabbis this wasn't even a question.

 

The dead are all asleep in the ground...  All the dead Saints including King David and Mary are all asleep waiting the second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.  So praying for saints to pray for you is completely fruitless and unBiblical.  Jesus is our High Priest and only one you need to have your prayers heard directly by God.

 

Genesis 2:7

Then the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath or spirit of life, and man became a living being.

 

Job 27:3

As long as my life is still whole within me, and the breath of God is [yet] in my nostrils,

 

Acts 2:29

Brethren, it is permitted me to tell you confidently and with freedom concerning the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

 

1 Corinthians 15:52

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the [sound of the] last trumpet call. For a trumpet will sound, and the dead [in Christ] will be raised imperishable (free and immune from decay), and we shall be changed (transformed).

 

Ecclesiastes 9:5

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; and they have no more reward [here], for the memory of them is forgotten.

 

JOHN 11:

¹¹ He said these things, and then added, Our friend Lazarus is at rest and sleeping; but I am going there that I may awaken him out of his sleep.

¹² The disciples answered, Lord, if he is sleeping, he will recover.

¹³ However, Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He referred to falling into a refreshing and natural sleep.

¹⁴ So then Jesus told them plainly, Lazarus is dead,

 

²⁰ When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went to meet Him, while Mary remained sitting in the house.

²¹ Martha then said to Jesus, Master, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.

²² And even now I know that whatever You ask from God, He will grant it to You.

²³ Jesus said to her, Your brother shall rise again.

²⁴ Martha replied, I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

 

 

Notice even Martha had her theology right.  Believing in ghosts or disembodied spirits will open people up to many deceptions.  If a relative came to you as a spirit, and know that your loved one is sleeping until the day of resurrection, then you know it is a deceiving spirit.  That's why when people see these visions of Mary (Jesus Mother) they are duped into believing evil spirits.

 

Since I was raised like how you believe I can understand brother.  When I was 7 years old they showed me 'The Burning Hell!!' at the small church by my Grandma's house.  Most preachers preach we're immortal souls but fail to see that the entire concept comes from Plato.  It's the mixing of Platonian ideals with Biblical ones that birthed this theology.

 

[Butch5]

 

The idea of praying to the dead assumes that the the dead are conscious which is expressly denied in Scripture

Luke 16:23-24

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off,

and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that

he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented

in this flame.

KJV

that would mean Jesus is lying here wouldn't it? Love, Steven

 

No, actually, it's an allegory. The story is really about how the priesthood is going to be taken away from the Jewish leadership. Notice the similarities between the rich man and the priesthood. The Levites were the priests. Notice the rich man has 5 brothers, Levi had 5 brothers. Notice the rich man was dressed in purple and fine linen. Fine linen was what the priest wore and in Jesus day they served as a kind of priestly king. Purple was the color of royalty. Notice Lazaus' name is given, it means "God help". Notice where Lazarus is taken, it's to Abraham's bosom. What did Jesus say?

 

11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Mat 8:11-12 KJV)

 

Being in Abraham's bosom is being accepted into the kingdom of God. Notice He said the children of the kingdom shall be cast out. The Jews were the children of the kingdom before Christ came. Jesus said they would be cast out. Look at the rich man, he was a Jew, he calls Abraham father. There are more things that could be pointed out also. Another thing to note is that this story is one of several. Notice prior to this Jesus speaks of the unfaithful steward. Who was that? It was the Jewish leadership that was God's steward and they were unfaithful, Jesus rebuked them many times. Also notice the statement about adultery. Jesus had already called the Jewish leadership adulterers. These stories convey a common theme.

[Butch5]

 

 

The idea of praying to the dead assumes that the the dead are conscious which is expressly denied in Scripture

Luke 16:23-24

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off,

and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that

he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented

in this flame.

KJV

that would mean Jesus is lying here wouldn't it? Love, Steven

 

 

 

No.  It means Jesus is telling a parable and you take it literally.  The irony Jesus was trying to use seems to be lost on most.  Jesus was explaining to the Jews that being a descendent of Abraham or being rich were NO guarantee of salvation.

 

It amazes me that so many astute bible scholars still believe in 'immortal souls', immortal spirits, etc...  The Bible clearly states where all the dead are...  They are DEAD!  Death is refered to as sleep repeatedly.  The Bible also states that only God has natural immortality.  We are bestowed immortality when we become like Jesus at the resurrection of the saints.  Why does Jesus need to raise all the dead to eternal life or judgement if you think we're already spooks in Heaven?

 

1 Timothy 6:16

Who alone has immortality [in the sense of exemption from every kind of death] and lives in unapproachable light, Whom no man has ever seen or can see. Unto Him be honor and everlasting power and dominion. Amen (so be it).

 

I know it is jarring theology but it is straight from the Bible.  Immortal soul theology was taught to me as well before I studied the scriptures for myself and found out we are VERY mortal beings, what constitutes life, and where the dead are now.

 

Study the 'Life Principle'.  Without God's breath of life and your physical body- you cease to exist.  When you die the breath of life returns to God but it isn't 'you' it doesn't contain your memories or personality.  The combination of God's breath+physical body=a living soul.  To ancient rabbis this wasn't even a question.

 

The dead are all asleep in the ground...  All the dead Saints including King David and Mary are all asleep waiting the second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.  So praying for saints to pray for you is completely fruitless and unBiblical.  Jesus is our High Priest and only one you need to have your prayers heard directly by God.

 

Genesis 2:7

Then the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath or spirit of life, and man became a living being.

 

Job 27:3

As long as my life is still whole within me, and the breath of God is [yet] in my nostrils,

 

Acts 2:29

Brethren, it is permitted me to tell you confidently and with freedom concerning the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

 

1 Corinthians 15:52

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the [sound of the] last trumpet call. For a trumpet will sound, and the dead [in Christ] will be raised imperishable (free and immune from decay), and we shall be changed (transformed).

 

Ecclesiastes 9:5

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; and they have no more reward [here], for the memory of them is forgotten.

 

JOHN 11:

¹¹ He said these things, and then added, Our friend Lazarus is at rest and sleeping; but I am going there that I may awaken him out of his sleep.

¹² The disciples answered, Lord, if he is sleeping, he will recover.

¹³ However, Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He referred to falling into a refreshing and natural sleep.

¹⁴ So then Jesus told them plainly, Lazarus is dead,

 

²⁰ When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went to meet Him, while Mary remained sitting in the house.

²¹ Martha then said to Jesus, Master, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.

²² And even now I know that whatever You ask from God, He will grant it to You.

²³ Jesus said to her, Your brother shall rise again.

²⁴ Martha replied, I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

 

 

Notice even Martha had her theology right.  Believing in ghosts or disembodied spirits will open people up to many deceptions.  If a relative came to you as a spirit, and know that your loved one is sleeping until the day of resurrection, then you know it is a deceiving spirit.  That's why when people see these visions of Mary (Jesus Mother) they are duped into believing evil spirits.

 

Since I was raised like how you believe I can understand brother.  When I was 7 years old they showed me 'The Burning Hell!!' at the small church by my Grandma's house.  Most preachers preach we're immortal souls but fail to see that the entire concept comes from Plato.  It's the mixing of Platonian ideals with Biblical ones that birthed this theology.

 

Great post will. The mixing of the two is Gnosticism and there are still remnants of it is the church today. This "Immortal Soul" doctrine is one as is the OSAS doctrine. Another is the "Heavenly Destiny" doctrine.

[AlanLamb0986]

I believe in saintly intercession, just not as the Catholic Church views it. I think we all believe in it. Firstly, what's intercession. It isn't the same as taking the place as the Mediator, there's only one who mediates for us and that's Christ Jesus.

 

 

The definition isn't bypassing Jesus, because the definition says that it is 'a prayer TO God', not a prayer by God. Since Jesus is God, He not only Mediates between the Father and us, but also intercedes for us (Hebrews 7:25)

 

Mediation: "to intervene in order to settle a dispute. God the Father had the dispute with man, so God the Son died for our sins"

Intercession: "Entreaty in favor of another, especially a prayer or petition to God in behalf of another."

 

Intercession, as defined above, is what happens after we were reconciled by Jesus' death. Jesus couldn't intercede for us, until He had mediated for us,

 

Do you pray to God for others? Yes? Then by definition, you are interceding for them. We intercede (ask God's blessings upon) for a person while praying in the name of Jesus. No problem so far, right? The reason I believe in saintly intercession is because we are interceding, and we are the saints. We know that Catholics have this warped concept of Sainthood, but the Bible makes it clear that we are the Bride, and all are Saints within the Church.

When Christ died for us, we were given His righteousness in place of our sin. Jesus, as God, is perfectly righteous:

 

"God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." 2 Corinthians 5:21

 

So our righteousness is perfect in spite of ourselves, because it is the same righteousness of Jesus Christ. We are, by definition, Saints. The difference is that Catholics have this hierarchy of Saints, then Jesus, then the Father. So they pray to Saints, the Saints pray to Jesus- it's all very 'Chinese Whispers.' But we, as the Saints of Jesus, intercede for others in the name of Jesus. There's no middle man between us and Jesus as the Catholic Church views it. I don't believe that the Saints who have died can intercede for us, only the living Saints. The dead don't suddenly become omniscient and omnipresent, giving them the ability to hear all prayers, that's a ridiculous idea. And a Saint can only intercede for you if they are asked to. If a dead Saint isn't omniscient, a living one definitely isn't. If you have a prayer request, it needs to be known.

 

Catholic view                                                           True view

The Father                                                              The Father

 

The Son                                                                  The Son

 

The Saints                                                               The Church who ARE the Saints

 

The other Christians

Edited January 16, 2014 by AlanLamb0986

[enoob57]

The idea of praying to the dead assumes that the the dead are conscious which is expressly denied in Scripture

Luke 16:23-24

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off,

and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that

he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented

in this flame.

KJV

that would mean Jesus is lying here wouldn't it? Love, Steven

 

 

No.  It means Jesus is telling a parable and you take it literally.  The irony Jesus was trying to use seems to be lost on most.  Jesus was explaining to the Jews that being a descendent of Abraham or being rich were NO guarantee of salvation.

 

It amazes me that so many astute bible scholars still believe in 'immortal souls', immortal spirits, etc...  The Bible clearly states where all the dead are...  They are DEAD!  Death is refered to as sleep repeatedly.  The Bible also states that only God has natural immortality.  We are bestowed immortality when we become like Jesus at the resurrection of the saints.  Why does Jesus need to raise all the dead to eternal life or judgement if you think we're already spooks in Heaven?

 

1 Timothy 6:16

Who alone has immortality [in the sense of exemption from every kind of death] and lives in unapproachable light, Whom no man has ever seen or can see. Unto Him be honor and everlasting power and dominion. Amen (so be it).

 

I know it is jarring theology but it is straight from the Bible.  Immortal soul theology was taught to me as well before I studied the scriptures for myself and found out we are VERY mortal beings, what constitutes life, and where the dead are now.

 

Study the 'Life Principle'.  Without God's breath of life and your physical body- you cease to exist.  When you die the breath of life returns to God but it isn't 'you' it doesn't contain your memories or personality.  The combination of God's breath+physical body=a living soul.  To ancient rabbis this wasn't even a question.

 

The dead are all asleep in the ground...  All the dead Saints including King David and Mary are all asleep waiting the second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.  So praying for saints to pray for you is completely fruitless and unBiblical.  Jesus is our High Priest and only one you need to have your prayers heard directly by God.

 

Genesis 2:7

Then the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath or spirit of life, and man became a living being.

 

Job 27:3

As long as my life is still whole within me, and the breath of God is [yet] in my nostrils,

 

Acts 2:29

Brethren, it is permitted me to tell you confidently and with freedom concerning the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

 

1 Corinthians 15:52

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the [sound of the] last trumpet call. For a trumpet will sound, and the dead [in Christ] will be raised imperishable (free and immune from decay), and we shall be changed (transformed).

 

Ecclesiastes 9:5

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; and they have no more reward [here], for the memory of them is forgotten.

 

JOHN 11:

¹¹ He said these things, and then added, Our friend Lazarus is at rest and sleeping; but I am going there that I may awaken him out of his sleep.

¹² The disciples answered, Lord, if he is sleeping, he will recover.

¹³ However, Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He referred to falling into a refreshing and natural sleep.

¹⁴ So then Jesus told them plainly, Lazarus is dead,

 

²⁰ When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went to meet Him, while Mary remained sitting in the house.

²¹ Martha then said to Jesus, Master, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.

²² And even now I know that whatever You ask from God, He will grant it to You.

²³ Jesus said to her, Your brother shall rise again.

²⁴ Martha replied, I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

 

 

Notice even Martha had her theology right.  Believing in ghosts or disembodied spirits will open people up to many deceptions.  If a relative came to you as a spirit, and know that your loved one is sleeping until the day of resurrection, then you know it is a deceiving spirit.  That's why when people see these visions of Mary (Jesus Mother) they are duped into believing evil spirits.

 

Since I was raised like how you believe I can understand brother.  When I was 7 years old they showed me 'The Burning Hell!!' at the small church by my Grandma's house.  Most preachers preach we're immortal souls but fail to see that the entire concept comes from Plato.  It's the mixing of Platonian ideals with Biblical ones that birthed this theology.

Wow all this effort and the refute is so simple! as to Lazarus-

Whether parable or not it is about consciousness immediate after death. This soul

sleep- sold by SDA, JW or other is in direct denial of other passages of Scipture

Heb 9:27-28

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that

look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

KJV

I love how this Scripture directs us to Christ and at His death He in the immediate

went to the captives preaching and led them out at His Resurrection!

Eph 4:8-10

8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave

gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first

into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended

up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

KJV

1 Cor 15:12-13

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that

there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead,

then is Christ not risen:

KJV

1 Peter 3:18-19

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might

bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison

KJV

this clearly being irrefutable evidence that after Jesus died He was consciously descended

into the earth preaching to the captives His Work of Grace then leading out of paradise

side of hades (Abrahams Bosom) the OT saints awaiting His Work of redemption!

2 Cor 5:6-8

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body,

we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be

present with the Lord.

KJV

Phil 1:20-23

20 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed,

but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body,

whether it be by life, or by death. 21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose

I wot not. 23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with

Christ; which is far better:

KJV

Clear and simply Paul who scripted the majority of the NT knew and preach the immediacy of

presence with Christ in consciousness of life when death occurred AND clearly taught so!

Love, Steven

[Butch5]

 

 

 

The idea of praying to the dead assumes that the the dead are conscious which is expressly denied in Scripture

Luke 16:23-24

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off,

and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that

he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented

in this flame.

KJV

that would mean Jesus is lying here wouldn't it? Love, Steven

 

 

 

No.  It means Jesus is telling a parable and you take it literally.  The irony Jesus was trying to use seems to be lost on most.  Jesus was explaining to the Jews that being a descendent of Abraham or being rich were NO guarantee of salvation.

 

It amazes me that so many astute bible scholars still believe in 'immortal souls', immortal spirits, etc...  The Bible clearly states where all the dead are...  They are DEAD!  Death is refered to as sleep repeatedly.  The Bible also states that only God has natural immortality.  We are bestowed immortality when we become like Jesus at the resurrection of the saints.  Why does Jesus need to raise all the dead to eternal life or judgement if you think we're already spooks in Heaven?

 

1 Timothy 6:16

Who alone has immortality [in the sense of exemption from every kind of death] and lives in unapproachable light, Whom no man has ever seen or can see. Unto Him be honor and everlasting power and dominion. Amen (so be it).

 

I know it is jarring theology but it is straight from the Bible.  Immortal soul theology was taught to me as well before I studied the scriptures for myself and found out we are VERY mortal beings, what constitutes life, and where the dead are now.

 

Study the 'Life Principle'.  Without God's breath of life and your physical body- you cease to exist.  When you die the breath of life returns to God but it isn't 'you' it doesn't contain your memories or personality.  The combination of God's breath+physical body=a living soul.  To ancient rabbis this wasn't even a question.

 

The dead are all asleep in the ground...  All the dead Saints including King David and Mary are all asleep waiting the second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.  So praying for saints to pray for you is completely fruitless and unBiblical.  Jesus is our High Priest and only one you need to have your prayers heard directly by God.

 

Genesis 2:7

Then the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath or spirit of life, and man became a living being.

 

Job 27:3

As long as my life is still whole within me, and the breath of God is [yet] in my nostrils,

 

Acts 2:29

Brethren, it is permitted me to tell you confidently and with freedom concerning the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

 

1 Corinthians 15:52

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the [sound of the] last trumpet call. For a trumpet will sound, and the dead [in Christ] will be raised imperishable (free and immune from decay), and we shall be changed (transformed).

 

Ecclesiastes 9:5

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; and they have no more reward [here], for the memory of them is forgotten.

 

JOHN 11:

¹¹ He said these things, and then added, Our friend Lazarus is at rest and sleeping; but I am going there that I may awaken him out of his sleep.

¹² The disciples answered, Lord, if he is sleeping, he will recover.

¹³ However, Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He referred to falling into a refreshing and natural sleep.

¹⁴ So then Jesus told them plainly, Lazarus is dead,

 

²⁰ When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went to meet Him, while Mary remained sitting in the house.

²¹ Martha then said to Jesus, Master, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.

²² And even now I know that whatever You ask from God, He will grant it to You.

²³ Jesus said to her, Your brother shall rise again.

²⁴ Martha replied, I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

 

 

Notice even Martha had her theology right.  Believing in ghosts or disembodied spirits will open people up to many deceptions.  If a relative came to you as a spirit, and know that your loved one is sleeping until the day of resurrection, then you know it is a deceiving spirit.  That's why when people see these visions of Mary (Jesus Mother) they are duped into believing evil spirits.

 

Since I was raised like how you believe I can understand brother.  When I was 7 years old they showed me 'The Burning Hell!!' at the small church by my Grandma's house.  Most preachers preach we're immortal souls but fail to see that the entire concept comes from Plato.  It's the mixing of Platonian ideals with Biblical ones that birthed this theology.

 

Wow all this effort and the refute is so simple! as to Lazarus-

Whether parable or not it is about consciousness immediate after death. This soul

sleep- sold by SDA, JW or other is in direct denial of other passages of Scipture

Heb 9:27-28

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that

look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

KJV

I love how this Scripture directs us to Christ and at His death He in the immediate

went to the captives preaching and led them out at His Resurrection!

Eph 4:8-10

8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave

gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first

into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended

up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

KJV

1 Cor 15:12-13

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that

there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead,

then is Christ not risen:

KJV

1 Peter 3:18-19

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might

bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison

KJV

this clearly being irrefutable evidence that after Jesus died He was consciously descended

into the earth preaching to the captives His Work of Grace then leading out of paradise

side of hades (Abrahams Bosom) the OT saints awaiting His Work of redemption!

2 Cor 5:6-8

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body,

we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be

present with the Lord.

KJV

Phil 1:20-23

20 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed,

but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body,

whether it be by life, or by death. 21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose

I wot not. 23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with

Christ; which is far better:

KJV

Clear and simply Paul who scripted the majority of the NT knew and preach the immediacy of

presence with Christ in consciousness of life when death occurred AND clearly taught so!

Love, Steven

 

enoob57,

 

None of these passages teach that man is conscious after death, you're reading that into the text. You have to remember that Paul was a Pharisee and the Pharisees didn't believe in a "ghost" that lived on after death, Neither did Jesus. We could go through each of these passages and see that they are not teaching a "ghost" theology. One must bring that idea to the text. As Will pointed out the idea of the "immortal soul" comes from Plato and Greek philosophy.

 

The only hope of an afterlife in the Scriptures is the resurrection. The OT is clear that the dead are dead, they know nothing. If the story of Lazarus and the rich man was true then it would be wrong. Hades is not the place of burning and torment, that is Gehenna or the Lake of Fire. However, Jesus said the rich man was in Hades, not Gehenna. What was Jesus referring to? I's suggest a passage from Deuteronomy. 

 

17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.

18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.

19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.

20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.

24 They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust. (Deu 32:17-24 KJV)

 

The "lowest hell" is the lowest Hades (Septuagint). Notice that the fire in Hades in this passage is God's anger and judgment. The rich man being in torment in Hades is suffering God's anger. The Jewish leadership was also about to suffer God's anger. In 70 AD God disbanded the priesthood. They have not existed since. This section of Scripture is a warning to the priesthood that they were about to be relieved of their position as God's stewards.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Butch5

[enoob57]

enoob57,

 

None of these passages teach that man is conscious after death,

when the plain sense of Scripture is rejected there leaves no sense in further discussion!

I have no interest in The Word literally says this but it really means this... I consider it a

perversion of the plain sense seek no other sense of hermeneutics. There is no such thing as

soul sleep in Scripture active consciousness is indicated by the Scripture I gave you. If you wish

to point out the Scripture I gave you as not doing so I will respond... but not to vague statements

you have made! Love, Steven

[Butch5]

 

enoob57,

 

None of these passages teach that man is conscious after death,

when the plain sense of Scripture is rejected there leaves no sense in further discussion!

I have no interest in The Word literally says this but it really means this... I consider it a

perversion of the plain sense seek no other sense of hermeneutics. There is no such thing as

soul sleep in Scripture active consciousness is indicated by the Scripture I gave you. If you wish

to point out the Scripture I gave you as not doing so I will respond... but not to vague statements

you have made! Love, Steven

 

Do you think every story Jesus told was something that actually happened? The Scriptures state clearly that He spoke in parables so that the Jews would not understand Him. 

 

33 And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it.

34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples. (Mar 4:33-34 KJV)

 

34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: (Mat 13:34 KJV)

 

The passages you've posted don't teach a consciousness after death and before the resurrection. for instance you quoted 2 Cor. 5. Let's look at a larger section of the chapter.

 

KJV  2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

(2Co 5:1-9 KJV)

 

In this passage Paul is saying the exact opposite of what you're claiming the passage says. Paul was aware that the Greek philosophers taught the immortal soul idea. Look at what he says. When speaking of the current body and the eternal body he say he doesn't want to be unclothed (without a body) but he would rather be overclothed (eternal body) that death (current) body might be swallowed up of life (eternal body). Paul is not talking about putting off the body and existing as a "ghost" somewhere. He talking about an eternal incorruptible body being put on "over" his corruptible body so that life (eternal) might swallow up death (current). He says,

 

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. (2Co 5:3 KJV)

 

He saying that we should not be found without a body. He's not looking to put off the body. 

 

We can go through each of these passages if you'd like. 

Edited January 17, 2014 by Butch5