Is it possible to walk away from every temptation

[Guest shiloh357]

 

Being a believer in Jesus is not about behavioral reform.  You can reform for a little while but if you have not been born again, you won't last.   The reason we have so many people who fall away back into sin, is that they were external participants, but never truly changed people.   The Bible says that if we truly belong to Jesus, if we are under His grace, sin shall not have dominion over us.  Peter in this entire chapter is talking about false teachers their misguided disciples, who are like dogs that return to their vomit and end up in a worse state of sin than  before. 

 

 

1 John 2

6He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

 

 

1 Peter 2

21For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps:

 

The Christian life is about a transformation enacted by the Holy Spirit.   That is not the same as behavioral reform.  Behavioral reform is something I do in my own strength and depends solely on my own ability change myself from outside.   Jesus changes me from the inside as He indwells me in the Person of the Holy Spirit.  God always works from the inside out.   John and Peter both reflect a life that is produced by inward working of the Holy Spirit, not the strength of personal will or human effort.

 

There's only one way to escape the pollutions of the world. To say we are able to do it on our own is to say the Blood of Jesus is unnecessary. 

 

There are many religionists who live lives of extreme piety, who do not engage in sinful devices who can fast and pray for extended periods of time.  They live good, moral lives and are the epitome of what it means to be a good, upstanding person.   But as is the case, there are many of these same people who, over time, are eventually overcome by their sinful desires and eventually return to their old lifestyle of sin before they began being "religious."  That is what Peter is talking about.   Peter says they are like the dog  that returns to his vomit or like the pig who returns to the mud.  They return because they were still sinners, they had reformed their behavior, but they remained as they were.   A dog returns to his vomit because that is what dogs do.   Sinners who have not been born again, return to their sin  because that is what sinners do.  They were never transformed.

 

 

shiloh357, on 06 Jan 2014 - 05:02 AM, said:

 

Quote

Revelation 3

5He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

 

  Here is is talking about those who "overcome."   The Bible says in I John 5:4-5 tells us that those who are overcomers are those who have put their trust in Jesus.   So when Jesus talks about those who "overcome" he is referring to those who put their faith in Him. 

 

So  according to Jesus, those who put their faith in Him, will be clothed in white garments and will not have their names blotted out of the book of life.   The phrase "I will not" in the Greek is a double negative.  It reads in Greek, "I will not, no, never."   

 

So this verse affirms eternal secuirty when we read it for what it says, "He who puts his faith in me, will be clothed in white garments I will not, no, never blot his name from the book of life." 

 

 

The implication is there that names can indeed be removed from the Book of Life.

 

 

No, not really.   The point is that the one who overcomes (puts their faith in Jesus) will not be blotted out.  The verse doesn't say that if we live right we won't get blotted out.  It says that the one who overcomes by placing faith in Jesus is assured that God won't blot his name out of the book of life.  It is the opposite of what you are claiming it says.  What's more, it uses the emphatic double negative that says "I will not no, never..."   The point Jesus is making is that one who trusts in Him is securely saved and has a guaranteed future with Him.

 

 

 

Of course it is. Why would nonbelievers be doing all those works? 

 

Because Jesus said he never knew them.  How could they be believers if Jesus said that He NEVER knew them?   Your assertion makes no sense.  Nonbelievers do good works too.  They often do more good works than some Christians, but they are still going to hell.

 

Those people fully expected to get into heaven, which made them believers.

 

The OSAS doctrine states that all one has to do is believe. This passage makes it clear that that is not the case. OSAS is a lie.

 

But notice the nature of their appeal to Jesus:   They appealed to Jesus on the basis of their works.  "Didn't we do all these marvelous things in your Name?"   They believed their works were meritorious enough to grant them access into heaven.   Unbelievers appeal to God on the basis of works.   Believers appeal to God on the basis of His grace.  They may have fully expected to be let in, but their basis and grounds for that belief were insufficient. 

 

This doesn't disprove eternal security because these people were never known by Jesus thus never saved to begin with.

 

The author of Hebrews was referencing believers because he included himself when he stated "we". "If we willfully sin..."

 

The problem is that he is not limiting the discussion to "we" believers, but to "we" people,  or "we human beings."   When "we" receive the knoweldge of the truth, but choose to act in manner that is contrary to that knowledge then we face the consequences.  That is true in any context.

 

The writer of Hebrews is simply making the point to those Jews who are sitting on the fence, who know the truth but are wavering under pressure to forsake the truth and continue living under the Old Testament economy.   His point is that if we acknowledge the truth but continue to remain in sin, in this case choosing to remain under the OT economy, there is nothing left for them.  So long as they remain in that state of rejection of Christ, there is no sacrifice for sin that remains for them becuase they have rejected the only means of salvation.

 

Those verses are self explanatory. No amount of twisting can get them to say anything other than what they say.

 

They are self-explanatory, but you have completely ignored their immediate literary context in order to string them together to make the Bible appear to say what it doesn't say.

[Guest man]

 

 

Being a believer in Jesus is not about behavioral reform.  You can reform for a little while but if you have not been born again, you won't last.   The reason we have so many people who fall away back into sin, is that they were external participants, but never truly changed people.   The Bible says that if we truly belong to Jesus, if we are under His grace, sin shall not have dominion over us.  Peter in this entire chapter is talking about false teachers their misguided disciples, who are like dogs that return to their vomit and end up in a worse state of sin than  before. 

 

 

1 John 2

6He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

 

 

1 Peter 2

21For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps:

 

The Christian life is about a transformation enacted by the Holy Spirit.   That is not the same as behavioral reform.  Behavioral reform is something I do in my own strength and depends solely on my own ability change myself from outside.   Jesus changes me from the inside as He indwells me in the Person of the Holy Spirit.  God always works from the inside out.   John and Peter both reflect a life that is produced by inward working of the Holy Spirit, not the strength of personal will or human effort.

 

There's only one way to escape the pollutions of the world. To say we are able to do it on our own is to say the Blood of Jesus is unnecessary. 

 

There are many religionists who live lives of extreme piety, who do not engage in sinful devices who can fast and pray for extended periods of time.  They live good, moral lives and are the epitome of what it means to be a good, upstanding person.   But as is the case, there are many of these same people who, over time, are eventually overcome by their sinful desires and eventually return to their old lifestyle of sin before they began being "religious."  That is what Peter is talking about.   Peter says they are like the dog  that returns to his vomit or like the pig who returns to the mud.  They return because they were still sinners, they had reformed their behavior, but they remained as they were.   A dog returns to his vomit because that is what dogs do.   Sinners who have not been born again, return to their sin  because that is what sinners do.  They were never transformed.

 

 

shiloh357, on 06 Jan 2014 - 05:02 AM, said:

 

Quote

Revelation 3

5He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

 

  Here is is talking about those who "overcome."   The Bible says in I John 5:4-5 tells us that those who are overcomers are those who have put their trust in Jesus.   So when Jesus talks about those who "overcome" he is referring to those who put their faith in Him. 

 

So  according to Jesus, those who put their faith in Him, will be clothed in white garments and will not have their names blotted out of the book of life.   The phrase "I will not" in the Greek is a double negative.  It reads in Greek, "I will not, no, never."   

 

So this verse affirms eternal secuirty when we read it for what it says, "He who puts his faith in me, will be clothed in white garments I will not, no, never blot his name from the book of life." 

 

 

The implication is there that names can indeed be removed from the Book of Life.

 

 

No, not really.   The point is that the one who overcomes (puts their faith in Jesus) will not be blotted out.  The verse doesn't say that if we live right we won't get blotted out.  It says that the one who overcomes by placing faith in Jesus is assured that God won't blot his name out of the book of life.  It is the opposite of what you are claiming it says.  What's more, it uses the emphatic double negative that says "I will not no, never..."   The point Jesus is making is that one who trusts in Him is securely saved and has a guaranteed future with Him.

 

 

 

Of course it is. Why would nonbelievers be doing all those works? 

 

Because Jesus said he never knew them.  How could they be believers if Jesus said that He NEVER knew them?   Your assertion makes no sense.  Nonbelievers do good works too.  They often do more good works than some Christians, but they are still going to hell.

 

Those people fully expected to get into heaven, which made them believers.

 

The OSAS doctrine states that all one has to do is believe. This passage makes it clear that that is not the case. OSAS is a lie.

 

But notice the nature of their appeal to Jesus:   They appealed to Jesus on the basis of their works.  "Didn't we do all these marvelous things in your Name?"   They believed their works were meritorious enough to grant them access into heaven.   Unbelievers appeal to God on the basis of works.   Believers appeal to God on the basis of His grace.  They may have fully expected to be let in, but their basis and grounds for that belief were insufficient. 

 

This doesn't disprove eternal security because these people were never known by Jesus thus never saved to begin with.

 

The author of Hebrews was referencing believers because he included himself when he stated "we". "If we willfully sin..."

 

The problem is that he is not limiting the discussion to "we" believers, but to "we" people,  or "we human beings."   When "we" receive the knoweldge of the truth, but choose to act in manner that is contrary to that knowledge then we face the consequences.  That is true in any context.

 

The writer of Hebrews is simply making the point to those Jews who are sitting on the fence, who know the truth but are wavering under pressure to forsake the truth and continue living under the Old Testament economy.   His point is that if we acknowledge the truth but continue to remain in sin, in this case choosing to remain under the OT economy, there is nothing left for them.  So long as they remain in that state of rejection of Christ, there is no sacrifice for sin that remains for them becuase they have rejected the only means of salvation.

 

Those verses are self explanatory. No amount of twisting can get them to say anything other than what they say.

 

They are self-explanatory, but you have completely ignored their immediate literary context in order to string them together to make the Bible appear to say what it doesn't say.

 

 

 

Follow your convictions shiloh357. 

[Guest DRS81]

Follow your convictions shiloh357. 

 

You're grasping at straws. The one's that believe that OSAS is false, what they do is pick out scriptures that have nothing to do with salvation itself. I've seen it on other forums too.

[Guest man]

 

Follow your convictions shiloh357. 

 

You're grasping at straws. The one's that believe that OSAS is false, what they do is pick out scriptures that have nothing to do with salvation itself. I've seen it on other forums too.

 

 

 

So don't listen to me.

 

It's that simple.

 

You also should follow your convictions DRS81.

[Willa]

I think you're right there because have knowledge of Jesus and faith of Jesus is different. Salvation comes through faith. Let's focus on this "knowledge"..

 

2 Peter 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

 

You're right, it is different. But you're ignoring the obvious. One cannot escape the pollutions of the world without faith in Christ Jesus.

2 Peter 2:20 Wuest Expanded Translation For if, having escaped the polutions of the world through an EXPERIENTIAL KNOWLEDGE of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, in these moreover again being entangled, they have been overcome with the result that they are in a state of subjection, the last things have become to them worse than the first ones;---

[Willa]

Man, you didn't listen to me, either. Perhaps the people that think they need to get saved again each time they deliberately sin are also wrong. The verse in Hebrews 10:26 that states "If we sin willfully" speaking of deliberate sin, is in the progressive tense. It means if we go on sinning, or if we continually are sinning willfully.

Those who commit a deliberate sin does not have to get saved again. It means the person has to confess his sin to be forgiven and cleansed from unrighteousness. 1 John 1: 5-9 He has broken fellowship with God and needs to be restored just like having a fight with your wife means you need to confess your error and ask for her forgiveness. It does not mean you get divorsed every time you have a fight and then have to remarry.

God does chasten those he loves as sons. He scourges us but we are still sons, and it yields the peacable fruit of righteousness.

Sins that are not deliberate are continually cleanses by the blood of Jesus as we have fellowship with God and other Christians and are walking in the light. The confession part in 1 John 1:5-9 is for the deliberate sins.

The Hebrews 10:26 passage is referring to those who in the end commit blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, the unforgivable sin.

These are apostate Christians. God keeps those who want to be saved. The ones who ignore the conviction of sin or who continue to sin defiantly even after being chastened by God, and go their own way, are lost but it may take years. Look how many centuries it took for God to divorse Israel. He is very patient with us and waits with open arms for the prodigals to return. Those who think they need to be saved again each time they deliberately sin may think our God is a hard God as did the man who buried his talents. This is a false concept of God as is the concept that God will keep people who no longer want to be kept, or that He permissibly allows people to sin without repentance. He does give us free will. But ignoring the Holy Spirit hardens hearts so that eventually they don't care if they are saved.

Yet from God's perspective, He forsees those who will endure to the end and has chosen them whom He forknew. Being outside of our perspective of time, He sees the end from the beginning.

For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence firm to the end. Heb.3:14 So perhaps OSAS is slightly closer to the truth than you think.

Blessings,

Willa

[Guest man]

 

 

I think you're right there because have knowledge of Jesus and faith of Jesus is different. Salvation comes through faith. Let's focus on this "knowledge"..

 

2 Peter 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

 

You're right, it is different. But you're ignoring the obvious. One cannot escape the pollutions of the world without faith in Christ Jesus.

2 Peter 2:20 Wuest Expanded Translation For if, having escaped the polutions of the world through an EXPERIENTIAL KNOWLEDGE of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, in these moreover again being entangled, they have been overcome with the result that they are in a state of subjection, the last things have become to them worse than the first ones;---

 

 

 

Man, you didn't listen to me, either. 

 

 

The above post is the only time you addressed me directly in this thread, and all you posted was a different translation of that verse from Peter.

 

What did you expect me to say?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So perhaps OSAS is slightly closer to the truth than you think.

 

 

If that is your belief, you have every right to pursue it. 

[Willa]

Post number 82 was what I was referring to. I don't usually direct to anyone in particular but to the general conversation. Sorry, I was just hasseling you. But I do believe that the truth may lie somewhere between the two views. Man has responsibility to choose. But in the end, God is soverign and even uses our choices though they may be wrong. Wasn't Bathsheba in the linage of Jesus? In the same vein, Jacob said you meant it for evil but God meant it for good, referring to when he was sold into slavery by his brothers.

Yes, it is possible to walk away from every temptation. Jesus did it and is without sin. But I don't think any man has done it since then. God has made ways of escape and in theory we may be able, but man is frail in himself and must lean on God's strength. Man is still inconsistant. When we compare ourselves with the perfection of Christ, no man has achieved that kind of perfection here on earth because we are not God. We may overcome one bad habit but we always find that there are other areas of our lives that need to change.

That is why we are told that we are being changed from glory to glory.

We do not hear the Father clearly all the time and only say the things we hear Him say, or do only the things He tells us to do, as Jesus did. This is perfection. Our God is so amazing! I long for the day that we will all be so in sync with Him.

Meanwhile we are stuck with each other as we are. We are told to forbear one another in love, even if we do have funny ideas and different understanding of Scripture.

Blessings, and here is where I would post a big grin with lots of hugs but my pad in incapable of carying on like that.

Willa

[Guest DRS81]

 

I just gave you 6 passages from the Word of God that shows your OSAS doctrine is false. Seven with the one from 2 Peter.

 

Your commentaries were written by men, the author of the bible is God.

 

In whom do you put your trust?

Actually none of the passages you presented address OSAS much less call it false.  Let's look at them:

 

[Guest man]

Meanwhile we are stuck with each other as we are. We are told to forbear one another in love, even if we do have funny ideas and different understanding of Scripture.

 

 

There's nothing funny about the OSAS doctrine. Yes it's a misunderstanding of scripture, but it's a deadly misunderstanding. 

 

When people are taught that all they need to get into heaven is to simply believe, it's dangerous, because it's not true. Matthew 7:21 clearly points that out. 

 

OSAS teaches that once you believe, you're sealed and there are no consequences to sinning. One can die in their sins and still gain entry into heaven. If this is true, why does the bible teach that we need to repent of our sins? Isn't it a waste of time if we're going to heaven anyway? It doesn't make sense. 

 

1 Corinthians 10 gives us OT examples of what happens when we turn from God. Why did Paul feel it was necessary to include those examples if we are "sealed"?

 

There are countless examples throughout scripture that negates this OSAS doctrine. People are just too lazy and blind to see it. They would rather be spoon fed the scriptures. Who cares what it means, as long as it sounds nice. Wouldn't want to offend anyone with the truth.