OEC and The New Heavens and New Earth

[anthonyjmcgirr]

If death was God's will, why would we need to be redeemed from it?

 

 

That's what I'm trying to ask.  Christ's death on the cross did no redeem death!  It redeem spiritual death.  Again, we are only assuming here that man would've been eternal if he had no sinned.  But I haven't seen it written in scripture.  So you are definitely making assumptions.  God said he would die if he ate from the fruit.  But the death wasn't physical, it was spiritual.  How did he know of the concept of death if he had never seen it? 

 

And Enoch went to be with God without physically dying that we know of.  We all could've rode into the sunset with Jesus when our time was done. 

 

So you ask why we would need to be redeemed from it, but we weren't redeemed from it because we still die, meaning He was speaking of spiritual death as it was only spiritual death that occurred from sinning.  I do not see the world being able to inhabit all of these eternal people. 

[Guest shiloh357]

That's what I'm trying to ask.  Christ's death on the cross did no redeem death!  It redeem spiritual death. 

 

More accurately it redeemed us FROM spiritual death.  Technically, Jesus did redeem us from physical death as well.   It's just that our appropriation of freedom from spiritual death is immediate and serves as our guarantee that God will bring us to the full realization of redemption which includes no more physical death or any of the other effects caused by the fall of man in the Garden.

 

 Again, we are only assuming here that man would've been eternal if he had no sinned.  But I haven't seen it written in scripture.  So you are definitely making assumptions. 

 

Just becuase YOU haven't seen it in the Scriptures doesn't mean I am the one making assumptions.   Adam died spritiually the minute he disobeyed God.  His physical death is connected to that because God said the following:

 

And to Adam he said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, 'You shall not eat of it,' cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life; thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return." (Gen 3:17-19)

 

So it is pretty clear that curse of death extended to man spiritually and physically due to Adam's disoebdience.   So if man were already set to die physically even if he hadn't sinned, that curse makes no sense.   So if man hadn't died spiritually, he would not have died physically.

 

God said he would die if he ate from the fruit.  But the death wasn't physical, it was spiritual.  How did he know of the concept of death if he had never seen it? 

 

 

Adam was made in God's image.  What makes you think Adam would not have understood? Again, you are the one making assumptions.   If Adam would not have understood it, why would God have said it in the first place?

So you ask why we would need to be redeemed from it, but we weren't redeemed from it because we still die, meaning He was speaking of spiritual death as it was only spiritual death that occurred from sinning.  I do not see the world being able to inhabit all of these eternal people. 

 

If we are not redeemed from physical death, the New Heavens and New Earth make no sense, as no one will die.   You see, we can know what the earth was like before sin came into it, by simply looking at what it will be like when sinned finally removed from it.   if there is no physical death after sin is removed, it follows that there was no physical death before it came on the scene.

[Guest shiloh357]

Simple question...why would an immortal being need a Tree of Life?

He wouldn't.  The Bible doesn't say that Adam and Eve had to eat from the tree of life in order to remain alive prior to their fall in the Garden.  The Tree of Life only became a problem after they sinned.   Adam and Eve got their life from God.  They would not have had to depend on the tree of life for their existence.  The tree of life isn't the same kind of life that we can get from God.   The tree of life might have provided immortality, but not eternal life.

 

The theological lesson in that story is that after they sinned, God would not let them reach out under their own strength and gain for themselves what they needed to have from God and God alone. If Adam and Eve had reached out and taken from the tree of life, they would have had immtorality but not eternal life.   They would have spent eternity separated from God in misery, sickness and decay.

 

In the same way, people who depend on religion to save them, who depend on good deeds to give them eternal life things they can do in their own strength will only be disappointed and they will spend  their immortality in an eternity separated from God.

[Shar]

 

That's what I'm trying to ask.  Christ's death on the cross did no redeem death!  It redeem spiritual death. 

 

More accurately it redeemed us FROM spiritual death.  Technically, Jesus did redeem us from physical death as well.   It's just that our appropriation of freedom from spiritual death is immediate and serves as our guarantee that God will bring us to the full realization of redemption which includes no more physical death or any of the other effects caused by the fall of man in the Garden.

 

 Again, we are only assuming here that man would've been eternal if he had no sinned.  But I haven't seen it written in scripture.  So you are definitely making assumptions. 

 

Just becuase YOU haven't seen it in the Scriptures doesn't mean I am the one making assumptions.   Adam died spritiually the minute he disobeyed God.  His physical death is connected to that because God said the following:

 

And to Adam he said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, 'You shall not eat of it,' cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life; thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return." (Gen 3:17-19)

 

So it is pretty clear that curse of death extended to man spiritually and physically due to Adam's disoebdience.   So if man were already set to die physically even if he hadn't sinned, that curse makes no sense.   So if man hadn't died spiritually, he would not have died physically.

 

God said he would die if he ate from the fruit.  But the death wasn't physical, it was spiritual.  How did he know of the concept of death if he had never seen it? 

 

 

Adam was made in God's image.  What makes you think Adam would not have understood? Again, you are the one making assumptions.   If Adam would not have understood it, why would God have said it in the first place?

So you ask why we would need to be redeemed from it, but we weren't redeemed from it because we still die, meaning He was speaking of spiritual death as it was only spiritual death that occurred from sinning.  I do not see the world being able to inhabit all of these eternal people. 

 

If we are not redeemed from physical death, the New Heavens and New Earth make no sense, as no one will die.   You see, we can know what the earth was like before sin came into it, by simply looking at what it will be like when sinned finally removed from it.   if there is no physical death after sin is removed, it follows that there was no physical death before it came on the scene.

 

Then how do you interpret Isaiah 65:17-20 that makes reference to the New Heavens and the New Earth and specifically mentions "if someone dies at a hundred, he will be thought a mere youth; he who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed"?

[Enoch2021]

 

That's what I'm trying to ask.  Christ's death on the cross did no redeem death!  It redeem spiritual death. 

 

More accurately it redeemed us FROM spiritual death.  Technically, Jesus did redeem us from physical death as well.   It's just that our appropriation of freedom from spiritual death is immediate and serves as our guarantee that God will bring us to the full realization of redemption which includes no more physical death or any of the other effects caused by the fall of man in the Garden.

 

 Again, we are only assuming here that man would've been eternal if he had no sinned.  But I haven't seen it written in scripture.  So you are definitely making assumptions. 

 

Just becuase YOU haven't seen it in the Scriptures doesn't mean I am the one making assumptions.   Adam died spritiually the minute he disobeyed God.  His physical death is connected to that because God said the following:

 

And to Adam he said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, 'You shall not eat of it,' cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life; thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return." (Gen 3:17-19)

 

So it is pretty clear that curse of death extended to man spiritually and physically due to Adam's disoebdience.   So if man were already set to die physically even if he hadn't sinned, that curse makes no sense.   So if man hadn't died spiritually, he would not have died physically.

 

God said he would die if he ate from the fruit.  But the death wasn't physical, it was spiritual.  How did he know of the concept of death if he had never seen it? 

 

 

Adam was made in God's image.  What makes you think Adam would not have understood? Again, you are the one making assumptions.   If Adam would not have understood it, why would God have said it in the first place?

So you ask why we would need to be redeemed from it, but we weren't redeemed from it because we still die, meaning He was speaking of spiritual death as it was only spiritual death that occurred from sinning.  I do not see the world being able to inhabit all of these eternal people. 

 

If we are not redeemed from physical death, the New Heavens and New Earth make no sense, as no one will die.   You see, we can know what the earth was like before sin came into it, by simply looking at what it will be like when sinned finally removed from it.   if there is no physical death after sin is removed, it follows that there was no physical death before it came on the scene.

 

 

Hey Brother,

 

I admit a weakness and some confusion with the Millennium ---- The New Heavens and New Earth.  When you get a chance either here or PM can you expand with some detail (who/what/when/where/why)

 

Thanks!

[Guest shiloh357]

Then how do you interpret Isaiah 65:17-20 that makes reference to the New Heavens and the New Earth and specifically mentions "if someone dies at a hundred, he will be thought a mere youth; he who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed"?

 

 

It doesn't take too much to understand that this not the same "New Heavens and New Earth" that we find in Revelation.   You are operating from the assumption that they are both referring to the same thing.  

 

Yet in Revelation it says, "He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away."  (Rev 21:4)

 

I see no reason to pit the Bible against itself.  God is speaking using imagery of Jerusalem and of a kind of "golden age" if you will, in the Isaiah passage.   He is not referring to what we see in Revelation 21 and 22 given how John describes the New Heavens and New Earth, there.

 

I also used to think this was a reference to the one mentioned in Revelation, but I have since found that to be a mistake.

[anthonyjmcgirr]

Hey I'm not making assumptions.  In fact, I am the one here trying to learn and asking questions.  You're the one walking around here all arrogant, acting like you have all the answers in the world and how dare anyone question your knowledge.  Seriously.  Can you please relax a little and stop being so arrogant?  You don't know anymore than I do EXACTLY what it was like, God's exact purpose, etc.  All we have are a few chapters that depicted the life of a man who lived over 900 years old. 

 

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm here to learn and talk about theories that we all share about this time.  So would you at least admit that you're fallible, that you just have your own theories from what you've read and stop acting like you were there and have all the facts?  Because you don't.  You are seriously making me not even want to post in this section anymore.  You're like the bully of the block and how dare anyone from questioning the Mighty Shiloh. 

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

That's what I'm trying to ask.  Christ's death on the cross did no redeem death!  It redeem spiritual death. 

 

More accurately it redeemed us FROM spiritual death.  Technically, Jesus did redeem us from physical death as well.   It's just that our appropriation of freedom from spiritual death is immediate and serves as our guarantee that God will bring us to the full realization of redemption which includes no more physical death or any of the other effects caused by the fall of man in the Garden.

 

 Again, we are only assuming here that man would've been eternal if he had no sinned.  But I haven't seen it written in scripture.  So you are definitely making assumptions. 

 

Just becuase YOU haven't seen it in the Scriptures doesn't mean I am the one making assumptions.   Adam died spritiually the minute he disobeyed God.  His physical death is connected to that because God said the following:

 

And to Adam he said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, 'You shall not eat of it,' cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life; thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return." (Gen 3:17-19)

 

So it is pretty clear that curse of death extended to man spiritually and physically due to Adam's disoebdience.   So if man were already set to die physically even if he hadn't sinned, that curse makes no sense.   So if man hadn't died spiritually, he would not have died physically.

 

God said he would die if he ate from the fruit.  But the death wasn't physical, it was spiritual.  How did he know of the concept of death if he had never seen it? 

 

 

Adam was made in God's image.  What makes you think Adam would not have understood? Again, you are the one making assumptions.   If Adam would not have understood it, why would God have said it in the first place?

So you ask why we would need to be redeemed from it, but we weren't redeemed from it because we still die, meaning He was speaking of spiritual death as it was only spiritual death that occurred from sinning.  I do not see the world being able to inhabit all of these eternal people. 

 

If we are not redeemed from physical death, the New Heavens and New Earth make no sense, as no one will die.   You see, we can know what the earth was like before sin came into it, by simply looking at what it will be like when sinned finally removed from it.   if there is no physical death after sin is removed, it follows that there was no physical death before it came on the scene.

 

 

Hey Brother,

 

I admit a weakness and some confusion with the Millennium ---- The New Heavens and New Earth.  When you get a chance either here or PM can you expand with some detail (who/what/when/where/why)

 

Thanks!

 

I am a pre-millennial and I lean toward the pre-trib rapture, but I am open to being wrong on the rapture part, as the Bible doesn't give us enough light on that particular issue to be dogmatic on the rapture timing.   However, I am pretty much locked into the Pre-millennial/dispensational camp.

 

I believe that Jesus will return before at the end of the Tribulation, set up His Kingdom on earth and reign for 1,000 years on the Throne of David from the Temple described in Ezekiel 40-48.   This temple will be the millennial temple and will be located in Israel in the midst of the tribes of Israel, after their tribal allotments have been redistributed, per Ez. 48.

 

At the end of the millennium, Jesus will allow Satan to tempt the world again and this result in one last rebellion and an attempt to overthrow the Kingdom and Satan and His armies will be destroyed and cast into the lake of fire.  The heavens and earth will be renovated by fire and there will be a New Heavens and New Earth to follow in which the earth will be restored to its pre-sin condition, no death or pain or suffering and it will be eternal bliss for all followers of Jesus Christ.

 

That's the, "I'm in a hurry and gotta run" version.  I left out a lot of details, but hopefully that gives you a picture of what I believe.

[Guest shiloh357]

Hey I'm not making assumptions.  In fact, I am the one here trying to learn and asking questions. 

 

No, you are are making assumptions and you made some in your last post, like claiming that Jesus' death on the cross didn't redeem us from physical death.

 

 

You're the one walking around here all arrogant, acting like you have all the answers in the world and how dare anyone question your knowledge.  Seriously.  Can you please relax a little and stop being so arrogant? 

 

I'm not arrogant at all.  I simply don't compromise on the truth.  There is a difference. 

 

 

You don't know anymore than I do EXACTLY what it was like, God's exact purpose, etc.

 

Yes I do know because the Bible tells us.  The Bible deals with these issues outside of Genesis, you know.  The Bible serves as an incredible commentary on Genesis.

 

 

All we have are a few chapters that depicted the life of a man who lived over 900 years old. 

 

Nah, we have way more than that, LOL.

 

 

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm here to learn and talk about theories that we all share about this time.  So would you at least admit that you're fallible, that you just have your own theories from what you've read and stop acting like you were there and have all the facts?  Because you don't.  You are seriously making me not even want to post in this section anymore.  You're like the bully of the block and how dare anyone from questioning the Mighty Shiloh. 

 

You can rant all you want, but the problem is that you can't refute one word I have said.   It is not a matter of me thinking I have all of the facts.  I simply have a better grasp on the available facts than you do.   That is why you complain.   If I were wrong, if I have spoken amiss, then all you would need to do is provide the evidence of that.   All you can do is complain that I have the courage to counter your claims with truth.   If I don't have the truth, then prove it.  Stop complaining, and provide a refutation  that shows where I am wrong.  it's an open debate and you are free to refute me.

[Enoch2021]

 

I am a pre-millennial and I lean toward the pre-trib rapture, but I am open to being wrong on the rapture part, as the Bible doesn't give us enough light on that particular issue to be dogmatic on the rapture timing.   However, I am pretty much locked into the Pre-millennial/dispensational camp.

 

I believe that Jesus will return before at the end of the Tribulation, set up His Kingdom on earth and reign for 1,000 years on the Throne of David from the Temple described in Ezekiel 40-48.   This temple will be the millennial temple and will be located in Israel in the midst of the tribes of Israel, after their tribal allotments have been redistributed, per Ez. 48.

 

At the end of the millennium, Jesus will allow Satan to tempt the world again and this result in one last rebellion and an attempt to overthrow the Kingdom and Satan and His armies will be destroyed and cast into the lake of fire.  The heavens and earth will be renovated by fire and there will be a New Heavens and New Earth to follow in which the earth will be restored to its pre-sin condition, no death or pain or suffering and it will be eternal bliss for all followers of Jesus Christ.

 

That's the, "I'm in a hurry and gotta run" version.  I left out a lot of details, but hopefully that gives you a picture of what I believe.

 

 

I am a pre-millennial and I lean toward the pre-trib rapture, but I am open to being wrong on the rapture part, as the Bible doesn't give us enough light on that particular issue to be dogmatic on the rapture timing.   However, I am pretty much locked into the Pre-millennial/dispensational camp.

 

 

So am I.  The Doctrine of Imminence.... Daniels 70 Weeks/ nobody knows the day or hour and a few other passages really drive this home

 

I believe that Jesus will return before at the end of the Tribulation, set up His Kingdom on earth and reign for 1,000 years on the Throne of David from the Temple described in Ezekiel 40-48.   This temple will be the millennial temple and will be located in Israel in the midst of the tribes of Israel, after their tribal allotments have been redistributed, per Ez. 48.

 

 

Who is outside the Gates of Jerusalem during the Millennium?  Is My Question of Questions