The age ol' question about God - FW vs P

[OneLight]

Some of us are predetermined.  Imagine the universe as a giant chess set.  God puts predetermined people into place in order to ensure that his plans prosper.  He thinks many moves ahead for example, Isaiah 42 was used to confirm Jesus, but if Jesus lives in us, and God speaks through prophets, then if God sent another prophet to the level of Ezekiel, then that prophet would share and finish Isaiah 42.  Some of us don't have much of a choice (Bond Servant of Christ), we just are; however, knowing everything is boring, and God likes it when his creation surprises him.  Great Commission. 

 

Life is not a chess game, my friend.  We have a free will to choose to follow Christ or to not.  Nor is God surprised, which would mean He is not "all knowing" or "Omniscience" as scripture tells us in so many places.

[Tristen]

 

I'll never understand why people struggle with this.

 

Just becasue God knows the end from the beginning, doesn't mean that we don't have free will.

 

 

 

Agreed.

 

I think an anachronistic assumption is being applied; i.e. that future knowledge somehow has the power to influence present decisions – when in reality, the opposite is true; i.e. decisions made in the present directly influence the future (and therefore any knowledge of it).

 

Time is linear/unidirectional. It only travels in one direction. My decisions today may impact future events, but what happens in the future (regardless of God's knowledge of it) does not influence my current capacity to make a free-will decision.

We exist within time. God is not so restricted. So God can perceive the entire dimension of time. But from within time, it is logically inconsistent to imply that future events have "already happened". If the events had "already happened", they would be in the past. Only the past can affect the present. And only the past and present can affect the future. But it doesn't work the other way. The future has no power over the present any more than we have power to change the past. God's infinite knowledge and eternal perspective does not change this.

 

 

 

I have always read “predestined” in the Bible to mean that God has a prepared destiny for us. By this definition, there is no conflict with free-will. By free-will, we decide how fully we are prepared to commit ourselves to that destiny. That is; “we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them” (Ephesians 2:10).

[Organic Medicine]

Free will vs Predestination

 

1.  Does scripture contradict itself by saying we have free will to salvation, yet does God choose who shall be saved. 2. If God chooses his people, and if man is spiritually corrupt because of sin, then WHY also write scriptures of repentance. 3. Are these scriptures of repentance speaking for ALL people or the one's he predestined. 4. Since Romans 1:20 already says God is in creation and they are without excuse then why does the Christian need to spread the gospel. 5. Couldn't Christians just avoid all that persecution by trusting in Romans 1:20 and predestination. 6. Why would a loving God predestine a few people to heaven and the rest to hell. 7. Isn't predestination the opposite of free will. 8. Is it safe to say we cannot know the mind of God and just lean on faith alone. 9. The christian asks "if predestination is truth then why me, why have I been chosen??" Blessings, David. Let us pray for discernment.

 

Matt 4:17 From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near."

 

Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

vs

 

Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

 

Romans 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

 

Matt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”

The Bible doesn't say that God chooses who will or will not be saved.  

 

The biblcial doctrine of predestination pertains to what God has predestined believers to become AFTER they are saved; it doesn't say that God predestines some to be saved and others to be lost.

 

Romans 9 is not about salvation.   It focuses on the sovereignty of God in tersm of God's sovereign choice to use people for a particular purpose.  Paul, in Romans 9 is defending God's justness in causing a partial blindness to come upon the Jews so that Jesus would be rejected and the promise of salvation could be fulfilled.  Paul uses the example of Pharoah through whom God used to show His power.  

 

God did not create Pharoah simply to destroy him. God does not create people to send them to hell.  There are incompetent and sloppy theologians who take that heretical view of God.   But the notion that God creates some people to send to hell violates the biblical revelation of God's nature and character.

 

Predistination in the NT is always about service not salvation.  The Bible does not take the extremist position that every event is willed by God.  There are hyper sovereignty people who think that every action, good or bad, sinful or righteous, is willed by God, but that is an unbalanced and extreme view of God that the Bible doesn't support.  IT is not rooted in the Bible at all. 

 

The free will vs. sovereignty debate often gets very contentious because it asking the wrong question from the outset and this leads to confusion and endless debate.   The question is usually about whether or not God gives us the freewill to choose to believe the Gospel.  But that is the wrong question.   The correct question is, "what is the relationship of my choices in life, good or bad, to the sovereign will of God over my and direction it is headed?

What about children who die at birth ,or too young to know God I have my own theories,but they are not

the same as most christians. I would like to know from the point of view of somone who is exclusively bible based in their beliefs,and ignores other manifestaions of God's Creative will in history and in science ad even parts of the bible,which are ignored or denied ?

Thankyou in advance for anything which helps. May God bless you,(que Dieu vous benice)

[Guest]

.... What about children who die at birth, or too young to know God....

 

 

Beloved

 

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

 

For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

 

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

 

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 1 Corinthians 15:20-23

 

As I See It

 

Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him. Job 13:15

 

Men Who Know God

 

For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. Hosea 6:6

 

And Who Trust In His Love

 

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

 

But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. John 3:16-21

 

Seldom Doubt The Eternal Rest Of

 

For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. Jeremiah 29:11

 

These Little Ones

 

And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?

 

But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me. 2 Samuel 12:22-23

 

~

 

That Said

 

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

 

Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

 

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Matthew 7:13-15

 

I Have No Doubt

 

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

 

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:35-36

 

None Will Stand Before God

 

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

 

And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:10-11

 

And Accuse Him Of Being Unfair Or Unreasonable

 

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. Isaiah 1:18

 

Or Will Stand And Tell Him There Is Any Other Way

 

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

 

To Him But By The Blood

 

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Revelation 1:5

 

Of Jesus

 

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

 

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

 

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

 

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

 

To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

 

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 3:19-28

 

Love, Your Brother Joe