Is 'soul sleep' doctrinal?

[Butch5]

Put me present with the Lord, put me under the alter, put me anywhere in white robes. Just get me to Heaven.  Thank you Lord. 

You'll get lonely there.

[Butch5]

I already answered your question.

 

And you contradicted yourself.

 

 

If these commentaries are the doctrines of men, then what does that make yours.

 

I didn’t quote commentaries,  I gave you Scripture.

  

 

Because you said it was nonsense, post 132 (From Butch: "I’m sorry, that’s just nonsense. It’s this kind of nonsense that leads people astray. You really should search the Scriptures rather than these commentaries. The fact that one can find commentaries that oppose each other on the same passage is reason enough to forego reading them.") You see Butch, the thing about searching scriptures on your own is that it's easier to twist them on your own. You see how that works? You don't understand what the tree of life is, and that's ok. The tree of life in Genesis and Revelation cannot be compared as both physical trees on earth. The tree of life is a physical tree in Genesis, but it is also a symbolic metaphor to describe the love and healing of God in Revelation. This tree of life comes from the throne of God in heaven. That's why I'm asking you if you believe that believers in Christ are indwelled with the Holy Spirit. I'm trying to teach you something, but you have to answer my questions in order for that to happen. http://en.wikipedia....ki/Tree_of_life

 

It’s nonsense because it’s nothing more that the opinion of some guy and it contradicts Scripture. You said, “ You see Butch, the thing about searching scriptures on your own is that it's easier to twist them on your own.”

What do you think your commentators do? They read the Scriptures for themselves. I can’t believe you said that. If you really believe that I’m afraid you’ll never understand the Scriptures. Are you really willing to place your eternal life in the hands of some dead guys that you don’t even know?

Judgment is not ceasing to exist, I'm sorry Butch. What's the definition of the Greek word translated judgment?

 

They’re destroyed after the judgment.

[Guest DRS81]

 

I already answered your question.

 

And you contradicted yourself.

 

How am I contradicting myself. What specifically do you disagree with here...

 

"I'm a give you a really simple example. If God made our bodies and gave us spirit/life through his spirit and stopped there, then what's the point of that. Our souls control our will, mind and emotions. If God stopped at just body and spirit/life, then we would be no more than zombies walking around. We all might as well be hooked up to hospital tubes and live off machines. Is the three parts clicking yet. Take your time Butch."

 

If these commentaries are the doctrines of men, then what does that make yours.

 

 

I didn’t quote commentaries,  I gave you Scripture.

 

You don't get it do you. You are not the final say in all scripture, and you think commentary isn't the final say. This is what we call a crossroads. They call this a crossroads because it is specifically your belief system that overrides anything we say. If your beliefs change then your outcome changes. But stubbornness is just that.

 

It’s nonsense because it’s nothing more that the opinion of some guy and it contradicts Scripture. You said, “ You see Butch, the thing about searching scriptures on your own is that it's easier to twist them on your own.”

What do you think your commentators do? They read the Scriptures for themselves. I can’t believe you said that. If you really believe that I’m afraid you’ll never understand the Scriptures. Are you really willing to place your eternal life in the hands of some dead guys that you don’t even know?

 

It doesn't contradict scripture Butch. You're talking about the tree of life in Genesis. I'm talking about the tree of life in Revelation. You are getting them confused. The tree of life in heaven is on either side of the the river of life in heaven. This is biblical, and is also a fact of heaven. Anointing from God is biblical because God is alive in Heaven. God being alive is biblical. (Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.) Believers in Christ receiving this anointing comes directly from the Father in heaven, directly from the throne of the Father. This anointing is called the river of life. (Rev 22:1-2 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.) The fact that you don't understand this is not good. Do you know what anointing is?

 

1. THIS IS DESCRIBING HEAVEN - Flowing from the throne of God

2. THIS IS DESCRIBING HEAVEN - Through the middle of the street of the city

 

Rev 22:1-2 looks like this...

 

 

FAMILY WORSHIP: The Tree of Life http://www.newchurchvineyard.org/new-church/tree-of-life/activities/familyoverview

Read about the Tree of Life in three different parts of the Word:

Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 2:8-12)

    Garden of Eden was like heaven on earth.

     The Tree of Life was in the middle of the garden.

     The Lord told Adam and Eve that they couldn’t eat fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

    A river went out from Eden.

Tree of Life in the Holy City (Revelation 22:1-5)

    John saw the Tree of Life in the Holy City.

    There were 12 different kinds of fruits on the tree.

    The leaves were used for healing people.

    The Tree of Life is on either side of the river of water of life.

 

 

 

Judgment is not ceasing to exist, I'm sorry Butch. What's the definition of the Greek word translated judgment?

 

 

They’re destroyed after the judgment.

 

If that's true then why are you ignoring the word Judgment, does it scare you?

[Butch5]

DRS81---How am I contradicting myself. What specifically do you disagree with here...

"I'm a give you a really simple example. If God made our bodies and gave us spirit/life through his spirit and stopped there, then what's the point of that. Our souls control our will, mind and emotions. If God stopped at just body and spirit/life, then we would be no more than zombies walking around. We all might as well be hooked up to hospital tubes and live off machines. Is the three parts clicking yet. Take your time Butch."

 

You contradicted yourself because in one sentence you said that body and spirit became a soul (which is correct). Then you said that body soul and spirit became a man. Scripture says that man is a soul, not has a soul

 

 

If these commentaries are the doctrines of men, then what does that make yours.

I didn’t quote commentaries,  I gave you Scripture.

 

 

You don't get it do you. You are not the final say in all scripture, and you think commentary isn't the final say. This is what we call a crossroads. They call this a crossroads because it is specifically your belief system that overrides anything we say. If your beliefs change then your outcome changes. But stubbornness is just that.

 

This is straw man. I never said I was the final authority. Actually, all I’ve given you is Scripture. You have presented at least three different commentaries. Do you really think they trump Scripture? It doesn’t matter how many commentators or commentaries that you present that say man lives on after death. The Scriptures “DON’T”. They say the dead know nothing, cannot praise God, etc. You can believe the Scriptures or your commentaries. I’d suggest that it’s not me who is being stubborn. You have no Scripture that teaches man lives apart from the body, all you can present are passages from which you infer the idea. On the hand I have presented clear passages of Scripture that tell how man was created, what he was create from, how he dies, and what happens to those components when he dies. I’m don’t have to infer anything, it’s plainly stated in the Scriptures.

 

You said if I answered your question you’d show me where Scripture teaches your doctrine, I’m still waiting.

It’s nonsense because it’s nothing more that the opinion of some guy and it contradicts Scripture. You said, “ You see Butch, the thing about searching scriptures on your own is that it's easier to twist them on your own.”

What do you think your commentators do? They read the Scriptures for themselves. I can’t believe you said that. If you really believe that I’m afraid you’ll never understand the Scriptures. Are you really willing to place your eternal life in the hands of some dead guys that you don’t even know?

 

 

It doesn't contradict scripture Butch. You're talking about the tree of life in Genesis. I'm talking about the tree of life in Revelation. You are getting them confused. The tree of life in heaven is on either side of the the river of life in heaven. This is biblical, and is also a fact of heaven. Anointing from God is biblical because God is alive in Heaven. God being alive is biblical. (Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.) Believers in Christ receiving this anointing comes directly from the Father in heaven, directly from the throne of the Father. This anointing is called the river of life. (Rev 22:1-2 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.) The fact that you don't understand this is not good. Do you know what anointing is?

1. THIS IS DESCRIBING HEAVEN - Flowing from the throne of God

2. THIS IS DESCRIBING HEAVEN - Through the middle of the street of the city

That’s not the issue. The contradiction is the idea that man lives apart from the body, when the Scriptures say the dead know nothing.

This bit about the tree of life in heaven is simply an opinion. There’s nothing in Scripture saying the tree of life is in heaven. It was in the garden and will be there again. In Rev.22 John is seeing fulfilled the prophecy that Ezekiel spoke of.

 

KJV  Ezekiel 47:1 Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood toward the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar.

2 Then brought he me out of the way of the gate northward, and led me about the way without unto the utter gate by the way that looketh eastward; and, behold, there ran out waters on the right side.

3 And when the man that had the line in his hand went forth eastward, he measured a thousand cubits, and he brought me through the waters; the waters were to the ankles.

4 Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through the waters; the waters were to the knees. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through; the waters were to the loins.

5 Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over.

6 And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen this? Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river.

7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.

8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.

9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.

10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.

11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.

12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

13 Thus saith the Lord GOD; This shall be the border, whereby ye shall inherit the land according to the twelve tribes of Israel: Joseph shall have two portions.

14 And ye shall inherit it, one as well as another: concerning the which I lifted up mine hand to give it unto your fathers: and this land shall fall unto you for inheritance.

(Eze 47:1-14 KJV)

 

As you can see this is what John saw in Rev. 22 and it’s a real place here on earth. It’s talking about the land that God promised to give to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. In that land will be a river flowing from the throne of God. Notice everywhere the river goes it brings life. Notice in the prophecy that Real places are being spoken of. “from Engedi even unto Eneglaim” These are real places. Notice that the river will flow through the desert and into the sea, that’s the Dead Sea. At this time nothing lives in the Dead Sea yet this prophecy says that it will, at that time, be teaming with fish. The vision that John see in Rev.22 is the fulfillment of this prophecy. It’s not some imagined place in heaven.

 

 

If that's true then why are you ignoring the word Judgment, does it scare you?

 

No! Why are you making straw man arguments, do the Scriptures scare you?

[Guest DRS81]

You contradicted yourself because in one sentence you said that body and spirit became a soul (which is correct). Then you said that body soul and spirit became a man. Scripture says that man is a soul, not has a soul

 

No you're just not there yet. There are three parts to man. Body/Spirit/Soul. God created body, God created life/spirit, God created soul. What are you confused with.

 

If these commentaries are the doctrines of men, then what does that make yours.

I didn’t quote commentaries,  I gave you Scripture.

 

and you are nobody.

 

This is straw man. I never said I was the final authority. Actually, all I’ve given you is Scripture. You have presented at least three different commentaries. Do you really think they trump Scripture?

 

Anybody can dish out scripture Butch. It's knowing what they're talking about that's important.

 

This bit about the tree of life in heaven is simply an opinion. There’s nothing in Scripture saying the tree of life is in heaven. It was in the garden and will be there again. In Rev.22 John is seeing fulfilled the prophecy that Ezekiel spoke of.

 

KJV  Ezekiel 47:1 Afterward he brought me again unto the door of the house; and, behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the forefront of the house stood toward the east, and the waters came down from under from the right side of the house, at the south side of the altar.

2 Then brought he me out of the way of the gate northward, and led me about the way without unto the utter gate by the way that looketh eastward; and, behold, there ran out waters on the right side.

3 And when the man that had the line in his hand went forth eastward, he measured a thousand cubits, and he brought me through the waters; the waters were to the ankles.

4 Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through the waters; the waters were to the knees. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through; the waters were to the loins.

5 Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over.

6 And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen this? Then he brought me, and caused me to return to the brink of the river.

7 Now when I had returned, behold, at the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.

8 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.

9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.

10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.

11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.

12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

13 Thus saith the Lord GOD; This shall be the border, whereby ye shall inherit the land according to the twelve tribes of Israel: Joseph shall have two portions.

14 And ye shall inherit it, one as well as another: concerning the which I lifted up mine hand to give it unto your fathers: and this land shall fall unto you for inheritance.

(Eze 47:1-14 KJV)

 

As you can see this is what John saw in Rev. 22 and it’s a real place here on earth. It’s talking about the land that God promised to give to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. In that land will be a river flowing from the throne of God. Notice everywhere the river goes it brings life. Notice in the prophecy that Real places are being spoken of. “from Engedi even unto Eneglaim” These are real places. Notice that the river will flow through the desert and into the sea, that’s the Dead Sea. At this time nothing lives in the Dead Sea yet this prophecy says that it will, at that time, be teaming with fish. The vision that John see in Rev.22 is the fulfillment of this prophecy. It’s not some imagined place in heaven.

 

No, Ez 47 and Rev 22 are talking about two completely different things. Do you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Do you know what anointing is?

 

 

If that's true then why are you ignoring the word Judgment, does it scare you?

 

 

No! Why are you making straw man arguments, do the Scriptures scare you?

 

What does the word judgment mean at the great white throne Butch. What does it mean to you when I say God takes sin seriously?

[Remnantrob]

No you're just not there yet. There are three parts to man. Body/Spirit/Soul. God created body, God created life/spirit, God created soul. What are you confused with.

 

Actually Butch gave you scripture showing that what makes a man is body plus spirit and he is described as becoming a soul according to the bible.  I'm not 100% in agreement with butch about everything he's saying but if you're being honest about the scripture being presented he's dead on with what this part of his presentation. 

 

and you are nobody

 

 

I thought this was kind of harsh but I get what you are trying to say.  The problem is that he is sticking to thus saith the Lord and you're sticking to thus saith Matthew Henry or some other bible commentary.  Let the scriptures speak for themselves.  If your position is correct you should be able to show a+b=c.  Butch has got you here as well if you're being honest with yourself. 

 

Anybody can dish out scripture Butch. It's knowing what they're talking about that's important

 

 

I don't think he has a problem with this statement.  I think that he wants you to allow the holy spirit to assist you interpreting scripture and not rely so heavily on bible commentators.

 

What does the word judgment mean at the great white throne Butch. What does it mean to you when I say God takes sin seriously?

 

I like this question you asked him and can't wait to hear his answer.  This is better than tv.  That was my two cents unsolicited of course.

[Butch5]

 

 

No you're just not there yet. There are three parts to man. Body/Spirit/Soul. God created body, God created life/spirit, God created soul. What are you confused with.

 

It’s not I that’s confused. 1+1=2. You’re trying to say that 1+1=3, it just doesn’t add up no matter how you try to do it.

 

 

and you are nobody.

Ah, so now it's not only straw man arguments, but ad Hominems?

 

That’s a great argument in favor of your commentaries.

 

 

 

Anybody can dish out scripture Butch. It's knowing what they're talking about that's important.

And any of your commentators can pretend they know what the Scriptures mean. The bottom line is that the Scriptures are the truth and anything that contradicts they is error. All three of your commentaries have contradicted the Scriptures thus they are error.

 

 

 

No, Ez 47 and Rev 22 are talking about two completely different things. Do you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Do you know what anointing is?

Anyone looking at the Scriptures without an agenda can see that John is speaking of Ezekiel’s prophecy. If you one let’s their theological bias drive their interpretation they are destined for error.

It’s even more misleading when lets theological bias and commentaries drive their interpretation of Scripture

 

What does the word judgment mean at the great white throne Butch. What does it mean to you when I say God takes sin seriously?

 

What it means to me is that you are presenting straw man arguments which is suspect is because your arguments cannot be supported from Scripture and that you’re struggling to rebut the arguments I’ve presented. If you’re not going to address the real issue there really no point in chasing rabbits.

The word judgment has nothing to do with the argument. The destroy is what is at issue.

[Butch5]

I found this rather interesting. You've posted John Gill's commentary several times, however, regarding Luke 16 it seems John Gill disagrees with you. He actually present the story as an allegory as I said. He's not talking about people living outside of their bodies. He gives about 16 pages to the story of the rich man an lazarus, you should check it out. Tell me if you agree with Gill here.

 

John Gill Commentary on Luke 

 

 

 

 Ver. 19. There was a certain rich man, etc.] In Beza's most ancient copy,and in another manuscript of his it is read by way of preface, “he said also
another parable”: which shows, that this is not a history of matter of fact,
or an historical account of two such persons, as the “rich” man and the
beggar, who had lately lived at Jerusalem; though the Papists pretend, to
this day, to point out the very spot of ground in Jerusalem, where this rich
man's house stood: nor is it to be understood parabolically of any particular
rich man, or prince; as Saul the first king of Israel; or Herod, who now was
re

igning, and was clothed in purple, and lived in a sumptuous manner: nor
of rich men in general, though it greatly describes the characters of such, at
least of many of them; who only take care of their bodies, and neglect their
souls; adorn and pamper them, live in pleasure, and grow wanton, and have
no regard to the poor saints; and when they die go to hell; for their riches
will not profit them in a day of wrath, nor deliver from it, or be regarded by
451
the Judge, any more than hills and mountains will hide them from his face:
but by the rich man are meant, the Jews in general; for that this man is
represented, and to be considered as a Jew, is evident from Abraham being
his father, and his calling him so, and Abraham again calling him his son,
(<421624>Luke 16:24,25) of which relation the Jews much boasted and gloried
in; and from his brethren having Moses and the prophets, (<421629>Luke 16:29)
which were peculiar to the Jewish people; and from that invincible and
incurable infidelity in them, that they would not believe, though one rose
from the dead, (<421631>Luke 16:31) as the Jews would not believe in Christ
though he himself rose from the dead, which was the sign he gave them of
his being the Messiah: and the general design of the parable, is to expose
the wickedness and unbelief of the Jews, and to show their danger and
misery, for their contempt and rejection of the Messiah; and particularly the
Pharisees are designed, who being covetous, had derided Christ for what
he had before said; and, who though high in the esteem of men, were an
abomination to God, (<421614>Luke 16:14,15). These more especially boasted
of Abraham being their father; and of their being the disciples of Moses,
and trusted in him, and in his law; and thought they should have eternal life
through having and reading the books of Moses and the prophets: these
may be called “a man”, because this was the name by which the Jews style
themselves, in distinction from the Gentiles, whom they compare to beasts;
(see Gill on “<401526>Matthew 15:26”) and this they ground on a passage in
(<263431>Ezekiel 34:31) “and ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men”:
upon which their note is f485,
“ye are called, μda, “men”, but the nations of the earth are not
called men.”
And they may be called a “certain” man, a famous man, a man of note, as
the Jews, and especially the Pharisees, thought themselves to be; and
therefore coveted the chief places in the synagogues, and at feasts, and
loved salutations and greetings in market places, and to be called of men
Rabbi, and master: as also a “rich man”; for the Jews in general were a
wealthy people, lived in a very fruitful country, and were greatly indulged
with the riches of providential goodness; and particularly the Pharisees,
many of whom were of the great sanhedrim, and rulers of synagogues, and
elders of the people; and who by various methods, amassed to themselves
great riches, and even devoured widows' houses; (see <420624>Luke 6:24
18:18,23 20:47) and they were also rich in outward means and ordinances,
having the oracles of God, his word, worship, and service; and as to their
452
spiritual and eternal estate, in their own esteem; though they were not truly
rich in grace, not in faith, nor in spiritual knowledge, nor even in good
works, of which they so much boasted; but in appearance, and in their own
conceit, they were rich in the knowledge of the law, and in righteousness,
which they imagined was perfect, and so stood in need of nothing; no, not
of repentance, and especially of Christ, or of any thing from him:

[Guest DRS81]

I like this question you asked him and can't wait to hear his answer.  This is better than tv.  That was my two cents unsolicited of course.

 

Yeah right, better than cable and it's free.

 

 

 

 

No, Ez 47 and Rev 22 are talking about two completely different things. Do you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Do you know what anointing is?

Anyone looking at the Scriptures without an agenda can see that John is speaking of Ezekiel’s prophecy. If you one let’s their theological bias drive their interpretation they are destined for error.

It’s even more misleading when lets theological bias and commentaries drive their interpretation of Scripture

 

Do you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Do you know what anointing is?

To really understand Rev 22:1-2, you would have to understand the love of the Holy Spirit so....

 

Well would you look at that, another commentary that disagrees with you.

No sign of the word Ezekiel in...The river of life - Revelation 22:1-5 http://www.easyenglish.info/bible-commentary/revelation-lbw.htm

What other scriptures do you have in your arsenal.

 

The word judgment has nothing to do with the argument. The destroy is what is at issue.

What it means to me is that you are presenting straw man arguments which is suspect is because your arguments cannot be supported from Scripture and that you’re struggling to rebut the arguments I’ve presented. If you’re not going to address the real issue there really no point in chasing rabbits.

 

Of course it does, nonbelievers will all be judged at the great white judgment throne.

 

Avoiding the word judgment doesn't make it go away...

[Butch5]

DRS81---Do you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
Do you know what anointing is?
To really understand Rev 22:1-2, you would have to understand the love of the Holy Spirit so....

 

Another straw man?

Well would you look at that, another commentary that disagrees with you.
No sign of the word Ezekiel in...The river of life - Revelation 22:1-5 http://www.easyengli...elation-lbw.htm
What other scriptures do you have in your arsenal.

 

Should we assume that this commentary takes precedence over the Scriptures?

Of course it does, nonbelievers will all be judged at the great white judgment throne.

 

That’s irrelevant to question of whether they live apart from body.

 

You still didn't show where Scripture teaches that man lives apart from the body. You if I answered your you would. I answered your question.