Is 'soul sleep' doctrinal?

[Butch5]

 

 

 

 

 

Also, not sure if Butch mentioned this but Job 4:17 says:

 

Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

 

If man is mortal that means he dies.  I've heard the opposite but scripture is saying otherwise.

The physical body dies, but the spirit lives on.  It is the body that is mortal. 

 

 

DUST + BREATH FROM GOD = NEPHESH (living being, soul) Think of the example of a light bulb.

The bulb is like our body. The electricity is like the breath of God. Together, they make up energized light that sheds its brightness around it. Likewise, our body, without God's breath, is dark. We are alive because God puts life into us. Light Bulb + Electricity = Light Body (dust) + Breath from God (spirit) = Living Soul (living being, nephesh)

 

Here is where things get tricky with terminology.  I believe that man is a 3 part being:  body, soul and spirit, and that the spirit inside the body is the real person.  When a person dies, the spirit leaves the body, and the body sleeps in the grave.  The Christian is absent from the body and present with the Lord, like Paul spoke of.  He talked about how it would be better for him to depart and be in the presence of God, but for the sake of those he was leading, it was better he remain.  He had every expectation that if he died, he would immediately be in the presence of God. 

 

Did Paul actually say he expected to immediately be present with the Lord at this death? In that passage he actually says that he is not wanting to be absent from a body. If you look at the entire passage carefully you can see that Paul was actually talking about having a corruptible body and an incorruptible body. In the "now" he has a corruptible one. However, when he puts on his incorruptible one he will be with the Lord. If we look back to the OT passages about the dead we see that the dead know nothing. If the dead know nothing, then one would be conscious one moment, then die and no nothing until they were resurrected. It would seem to them to be immediate even though time had passed. It would seem immediate because they know nothing of the time they were dead. We could easily understand Paul's statement that way. His is in a corruptible body and he wants to put on his incorruptible body which won't happen until he is in the presence of Christ. One moment he is in this corruptible body, then he dies and the next thing he knows he's with the Lord. There is something here that many misread. Paul "Didn't" say to be absent from the body "IS" to be present with the Lord, he said "I am willing" rather to absent from the body "AND" present with the Lord. There's a big difference there.

 

Paul is well aware of the Greek influences on the Corinthians and makes a point to deny an existence outside of the body.

 

KJV  2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. (2Co 5:1-9 KJV)

 

His argument is that he doesn't want to be unclothed (without a body) but rather "Overclothed" with the incorruptible body. He says "that mortality might be swallowed up of life."

 

The Greek word  translated clothed upon in verse 4 means to put on over.

 

1902 evpendu,omai ependuomai {ep-en-doo'-om-ahee}

Meaning:  1) to put on over

 

I used the word "Overclothed". He's saying that he does't expect to put of his flesh body and assume a new one later. He expects to put the new one, the incorruptible one, on over his existing body. He said that mortality my be swallowed up of life (or the incorruptible).

 

His argument actually argues against what many Christians claim from this verse. I used to this verse too to argue this point, however, after seeing it more fully have realized that it was actually saying the opposite of what I was claiming.

 

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you, but I had things to take care of before I could look into your argument.  The house he is speaking of is not his glorified body.  He is speaking of his mansion in heaven that Jesus went away to prepare for the saints.  He is speaking of leaving his earthly tabernacle, (his body) and taking up residence in his home in heaven.  The Greek word translated house literally means a house.  It doesn't mean a body.  He doesn't say he is desiring to have his present body overclothed.  He is saying he is desiring to be absent from his body, and present with the Lord.  You have been saying you want someone to show you scripture that shows a person can be absent from this physical body and elsewhere.  I gave you one. 

 

The word does mean house, he's using it as a metaphor. 

 

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. (2Co 5:1 KJV)

 

It"s the same word so it means the same both times. Either he means a physical building both times or he means a body both times you can't just change it.

 

You said, "He doesn't say he is desiring to have his present body overclothed." That's exactly what he said.

 

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. (2Co 5:3-4 KJV)

 

He said he doesn't want to unclothed but clothed upon. The Greek word that is translated "clothed upon" means to put on over.

 

 

Actually, the Scriptures don't say anything about mansion is Heaven. What Jesus said was in my Father's house there are many mansions (rooms). Jesus didn't refer to Heaven as His Father's house.

 

13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,

14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:

15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

(Joh 2:13-16 KJV)

 

When Jesus spoke of His Father's house it was the temple. The many rooms were built like apartments for the priests when they were serving at the Temple. Jesus told the apostles that they would be reign with Him

 

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Mat 19:28 KJV)

 

And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. (Revelation 1:6 KJV)

 

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. (Rev 5:9-10 KJV)

 

Here is Ezekiel's description of the Temple

 

3 And he brought me thither, and, behold, there was a man, whose appearance was like the appearance of brass, with a line of flax in his hand, and a measuring reed; and he stood in the gate.

4 And the man said unto me, Son of man, behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears, and set thine heart upon all that I shall shew thee; for to the intent that I might shew them unto thee art thou brought hither: declare all that thou seest to the house of Israel.

5 And behold a wall on the outside of the house round about, and in the man's hand a measuring reed of six cubits long by the cubit and an hand breadth: so he measured the breadth of the building, one reed; and the height, one reed.

6 Then came he unto the gate which looketh toward the east, and went up the stairs thereof, and measured the threshold of the gate, which was one reed broad; and the other threshold of the gate, which was one reed broad.

7 And every little chamber was one reed long, and one reed broad; and between the little chambers were five cubits; and the threshold of the gate by the porch of the gate within was one reed.

8 He measured also the porch of the gate within, one reed.

9 Then measured he the porch of the gate, eight cubits; and the posts thereof, two cubits; and the porch of the gate was inward.

10 And the little chambers of the gate eastward were three on this side, and three on that side; they three were of one measure: and the posts had one measure on this side and on that side.

11 And he measured the breadth of the entry of the gate, ten cubits; and the length of the gate, thirteen cubits.

12 The space also before the little chambers was one cubit on this side, and the space was one cubit on that side: and the little chambers were six cubits on this side, and six cubits on that side.

13 He measured then the gate from the roof of one little chamber to the roof of another: the breadth was five and twenty cubits, door against door.

14 He made also posts of threescore cubits, even unto the post of the court round about the gate.

15 And from the face of the gate of the entrance unto the face of the porch of the inner gate were fifty cubits.

16 And there were narrow windows to the little chambers, and to their posts within the gate round about, and likewise to the arches: and windows were round about inward: and upon each post were palm trees.

17 Then brought he me into the outward court, and, lo, there were chambers, and a pavement made for the court round about: thirty chambers were upon the pavement.

18 And the pavement by the side of the gates over against the length of the gates was the lower pavement.

19 Then he measured the breadth from the forefront of the lower gate unto the forefront of the inner court without, an hundred cubits eastward and northward.

20 And the gate of the outward court that looked toward the north, he measured the length thereof, and the breadth thereof.

21 And the little chambers thereof were three on this side and three on that side; and the posts thereof and the arches thereof were after the measure of the first gate: the length thereof was fifty cubits, and the breadth five and twenty cubits.

22 And their windows, and their arches, and their palm trees, were after the measure of the gate that looketh toward the east; and they went up unto it by seven steps; and the arches thereof were before them.

23 And the gate of the inner court was over against the gate toward the north, and toward the east; and he measured from gate to gate an hundred cubits.

24 After that he brought me toward the south, and behold a gate toward the south: and he measured the posts thereof and the arches thereof according to these measures.

25 And there were windows in it and in the arches thereof round about, like those windows: the length was fifty cubits, and the breadth five and twenty cubits.

26 And there were seven steps to go up to it, and the arches thereof were before them: and it had palm trees, one on this side, and another on that side, upon the posts thereof.

27 And there was a gate in the inner court toward the south: and he measured from gate to gate toward the south an hundred cubits.

28 And he brought me to the inner court by the south gate: and he measured the south gate according to these measures;

29 And the little chambers thereof, and the posts thereof, and the arches thereof, according to these measures: and there were windows in it and in the arches thereof round about: it was fifty cubits long, and five and twenty cubits broad.

30 And the arches round about were five and twenty cubits long, and five cubits broad.

31 And the arches thereof were toward the utter court; and palm trees were upon the posts thereof: and the going up to it had eight steps.

32 And he brought me into the inner court toward the east: and he measured the gate according to these measures.

33 And the little chambers thereof, and the posts thereof, and the arches thereof, were according to these measures: and there were windows therein and in the arches thereof round about: it was fifty cubits long, and five and twenty cubits broad.

34 And the arches thereof were toward the outward court; and palm trees were upon the posts thereof, on this side, and on that side: and the going up to it had eight steps.

35 And he brought me to the north gate, and measured it according to these measures;

36 The little chambers thereof, the posts thereof, and the arches thereof, and the windows to it round about: the length was fifty cubits, and the breadth five and twenty cubits.

37 And the posts thereof were toward the utter court; and palm trees were upon the posts thereof, on this side, and on that side: and the going up to it had eight steps.

38 And the chambers and the entries thereof were by the posts of the gates, where they washed the burnt offering.

39 And in the porch of the gate were two tables on this side, and two tables on that side, to slay thereon the burnt offering and the sin offering and the trespass offering.

40 And at the side without, as one goeth up to the entry of the north gate, were two tables; and on the other side, which was at the porch of the gate, were two tables.

41 Four tables were on this side, and four tables on that side, by the side of the gate; eight tables, whereupon they slew their sacrifices.

42 And the four tables were of hewn stone for the burnt offering, of a cubit and an half long, and a cubit and an half broad, and one cubit high: whereupon also they laid the instruments wherewith they slew the burnt offering and the sacrifice.

43 And within were hooks, an hand broad, fastened round about: and upon the tables was the flesh of the offering.

44 And without the inner gate were the chambers of the singers in the inner court, which was at the side of the north gate; and their prospect was toward the south: one at the side of the east gate having the prospect toward the north.

45 And he said unto me, This chamber, whose prospect is toward the south, is for the priests, the keepers of the charge of the house.

46 And the chamber whose prospect is toward the north is for the priests, the keepers of the charge of the altar: these are the sons of Zadok among the sons of Levi, which come near to the LORD to minister unto him. (Eze 40:3-46 KJV)

[Butch5]

 

 

This is not correct.  The definition of Hades from the Greek Dictionary is...

The place (state) of departed souls:  grave, hell.

 

What here has contradicted what I said? Hades is the grave not the place of torment that is Gehenna.

 

 

One area we have had questions over is the body, soul and spirit, so lets look at these definitions.

body (soma) the body (as a sound whole), used in a very wide application, lit. or fig.: bodily, body, slave.

soul (psuche) breath, i.e. (by impl.) spirit

spirit (pneuma) a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by anal. or fig. a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by impl.) vital principle, mental disposition, etc.

 

Are you familiar with how Biblical dictionaries are made?

This isn’t really any different than the situation with the commentaries. I gave you Scripture show what a soul is. Can you show me anywhere in the OT where a soul and spirit are said to be one and the same. It doesn’t really matter if a dictionary says it if it’s not in Scripture. If the idea cannot be found in Scripture then it’s just the idea of the author.

The punishments of hell are forever.  Notice what it says in Mark 9:43-48

And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off:  it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:   Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.  And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off:  it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:  Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.  And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out:  it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:  Where their worm deith not, and the fire is not quenched.

Hell is real, and a place of eternal punishment for the wicked.

 

The results of the punishments are forever, not the duration.

 

What is not correct is your definition of hades.  It was incomplete.  The full definition is "the place (state) of departed souls:  grave, hell.  You chose to leave out all but grave, and made out like hades could not describe the place the soul of the rich man was at, when clearly it can.  And yes, the punishments are forever.  I don't believe everyone has the same amount of torments for their transgressions, but all suffer to some degree for eternity.

 

I never said the rich man couldn't be in Hades, I said Hades in not the place of torment. You won't find a passage of Scripture that says people are tormented in Hades. 

 

Regarding the definition of Hades, As I said, the dictionary is like the commentary it's one's opinion. The question is can it found in the Scriptures. Can you show me a single passage of Scripture in the OT that requires Hades or sheol to mean a place where ghosts go? If you can't show that then you you can't say that the OT teaches it. It doesn't really matter what the author of a dictionary says. Dictionaries and commentaries can at times be helpful, however, they are "NOT" inspired. It's just like I said before about the translators translation Scripture, they bring a bias to their translation. If you believe that there is a ghost of man that lives on after death and you see a passage that says the rich man was in Hades they you're going to define Hades as a place for ghosts. The question is do the Scriptures require that definition?

[Butch5]

 

 

This is not correct.  The definition of Hades from the Greek Dictionary is...

The place (state) of departed souls:  grave, hell.

 

What here has contradicted what I said? Hades is the grave not the place of torment that is Gehenna.

 

 

One area we have had questions over is the body, soul and spirit, so lets look at these definitions.

body (soma) the body (as a sound whole), used in a very wide application, lit. or fig.: bodily, body, slave.

soul (psuche) breath, i.e. (by impl.) spirit

spirit (pneuma) a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by anal. or fig. a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by impl.) vital principle, mental disposition, etc.

 

Are you familiar with how Biblical dictionaries are made?

This isn’t really any different than the situation with the commentaries. I gave you Scripture show what a soul is. Can you show me anywhere in the OT where a soul and spirit are said to be one and the same. It doesn’t really matter if a dictionary says it if it’s not in Scripture. If the idea cannot be found in Scripture then it’s just the idea of the author.

The punishments of hell are forever.  Notice what it says in Mark 9:43-48

And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off:  it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:   Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.  And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off:  it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:  Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.  And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out:  it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:  Where their worm deith not, and the fire is not quenched.

Hell is real, and a place of eternal punishment for the wicked.

 

The results of the punishments are forever, not the duration.

 

What is not correct is your definition of hades.  It was incomplete.  The full definition is "the place (state) of departed souls:  grave, hell.  You chose to leave out all but grave, and made out like hades could not describe the place the soul of the rich man was at, when clearly it can.  And yes, the punishments are forever.  I don't believe everyone has the same amount of torments for their transgressions, but all suffer to some degree for eternity.

 

Another point about the definition. Aren't you assuming that the departed souls are alive? This definition says nothing about the departed souls being alive. If a soul is a person and we know when a person departs they're dead. We use that language today, the dearly departed. 

 

Let me ask you a question, do you believe that the ghosts of the dead are in the ground? Hades does mean the grave. Even if you say the ghost is alive Hades is still the grave. Is the Ghost 6 feet under in a pine box being tormented in flames?

[Butch5]

Those are excellent examples.  Thanks.  The only problem I have with them is that they are teaching false doctrine.  We know that they cannot be in the truth, as God himself is the one that ordered his people into battle time and again in the OT.  If killing during time of war was wrong, that would make God guilty of wrong doing.  The Bible says he is the same yesterday, today and forever.  Jesus himself will lead an army into battle at Armageddon.

 

My first question is this, if they are teaching false doctrine and are not in the truth of God why do you believe when they tell us who wrote the NT. They way we know who wrote it s from them. If we can’t trust what they say then we have no way to verify that the Scriptures we claim are inspired were actually written by the writers whose name they bear.

Another question I would ask is this, Jesus came to bring the Gospel. He taught His apostles. His apostles went out and taught the Gospel that He taught them.  Did they succeed? You see, the prohibition on the use of violence was universally taught in the early church. No one writes in approval of the use of violence, and this is over the entire region. That means that if Jesus and the apostle did teach that violence was OK, everyone they taught either didn’t understand or totally rejected what they taught on the subject. Either way it would indicate that they failed to establish the Gospel. I think Jesus and the apostles were successful in their establishing the Gospel.

I don’t want to derail this thread so I’m going to post a bunch of evidence for the teaching. I will say this, everyone who supports the use of violence must seek support from the OT as there is nothing in the NT to support that idea.

I've written a paper on this subject that goes into both Scriptural support and the historical evidence for the doctrine. Should Christians use Violence?

I appreciate where you are coming from.  You have writings of early church figures that oppose the use of war, so you figure that means war is evil.  I don't see it that way.  I believe that doctrine actually goes contrary to things found in the Bible itself.  I don't believe that Jesus came and changed things in the new covenant like some do.  When he taught things about the OT, he was clarifying errors that were created by the religious leaders.  He wasn't doing away with the law itself.  He certainly wouldn't come against God for telling people to fight battles, like the one at Jericho.

 

God is the judge, it’s His place to give life or take it, not ours. God told Israel when to go to war and when not to. What nation does He do that with today?

 

Actually, God did say that things would change when Christ came.

 

5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them. (Isa 42:5-9 KJV)

 

Paul quotes this

 

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2Co 5:17 KJV)

[Guest DRS81]

What is not correct is your definition of hades.  It was incomplete.  The full definition is "the place (state) of departed souls:  grave, hell.  You chose to leave out all but grave, and made out like hades could not describe the place the soul of the rich man was at, when clearly it can.

 

It looks to me that Sheol/Hades is just a place of darkness and separation from God, but also they are not sleeping. They are aware of the darkness and separation, and that alone is punishment and painful. Hellfire will then happen when they are thrown into the lake. Maybe Luke 16:23-24 refers to the fire inside their souls. The fire is the separation but not literal fire. "I am in anguish in this flame." Maybe flame represents the pain he feels because of separation and because of their sins. (NOTICE 'FLAME' IS SINGULAR) (Eze 32:27 They do not lie down with the fallen warriors of the uncircumcised, who went down to Sheol with their weapons of war, whose swords were placed under their heads. The punishment for their sins rested on their bones, although the terror of these warriors was once in the land of the living.)

 

In regards to website, Hades is a separate place from the Lake of Fire..that much we know. It's good we know this...(Rev 20:13-14 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.) If Hades was thrown and cast into the fire, then we can know that Hades had substance or contents if you will. The contents being souls and spirits of the dead. We can also identify Hades as being the first or current hell, and the Lake of Fire as the second hell. This is because the souls are raised out of Hades to be judged, and then the ones found unworthy of eternal life are cast into the Lake of Fire. So Hades precedes the Lake of Fire both chronologically and in severity. Hades must be the first hell, where many departed souls go when they die, and the Lake of Fire must be the second hell, a place of final judgment and damnation.

 

Sheol is the same as Hades (describing death/punishment) and Gehenna is the same as the Lake of Fire (describing eternal fire). Gehenna is also described as the Lake of Fire in Mark 9:43-44 and Isaiah 30:33. Also, in the New Testament, the words that are translated as hell are the Greek words "Hades" and "Tartarus". Tartarus is another incarnation of hell in the New Testament, and it only appears once in the scripture, "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell [Tartarus], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment" (2nd Peter 2.4 KJV bible)

 

Lastly, from the book of Revelation we learn about the existence of a bottomless pit, or abyss. Specifically we are told that this abyss is restraining a demonic army that in the future will be unleashed to prey upon mankind. We are also told that during the millennium Satan himself will be locked away within it, "And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit (Abyss), and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled" (Revelation 20.2-3 KJV bible). The Abyss' association with containment and imprisonment is similar to Tartarus, and so the two locations could be one and the same. At the very least we know that the Abyss is another deep sub-level of Hades, destined for destruction in Gehenna. http://www.cupofwrath.com/risen-dust/02-hell-NT.php

 

Final Conclusion: If Sheol/Hades is a place where people are sleeping then why do these angels need to be in chains in 2 Peter 2:4?

[Guest DRS81]

...

 

It's hard to really take you seriously Butch when you don't even understand what born again means and that Jesus died for your sins and that Jesus is God. You would have to understand the basics of what the Bible is about in order to understand the deeper stuff. Please respond to post 70..

[Guest Butero]

 

 

 

This is not correct.  The definition of Hades from the Greek Dictionary is...

The place (state) of departed souls:  grave, hell.

 

What here has contradicted what I said? Hades is the grave not the place of torment that is Gehenna.

 

 

One area we have had questions over is the body, soul and spirit, so lets look at these definitions.

body (soma) the body (as a sound whole), used in a very wide application, lit. or fig.: bodily, body, slave.

soul (psuche) breath, i.e. (by impl.) spirit

spirit (pneuma) a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by anal. or fig. a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by impl.) vital principle, mental disposition, etc.

 

Are you familiar with how Biblical dictionaries are made?

This isn’t really any different than the situation with the commentaries. I gave you Scripture show what a soul is. Can you show me anywhere in the OT where a soul and spirit are said to be one and the same. It doesn’t really matter if a dictionary says it if it’s not in Scripture. If the idea cannot be found in Scripture then it’s just the idea of the author.

The punishments of hell are forever.  Notice what it says in Mark 9:43-48

And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off:  it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:   Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.  And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off:  it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:  Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.  And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out:  it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:  Where their worm deith not, and the fire is not quenched.

Hell is real, and a place of eternal punishment for the wicked.

 

The results of the punishments are forever, not the duration.

 

What is not correct is your definition of hades.  It was incomplete.  The full definition is "the place (state) of departed souls:  grave, hell.  You chose to leave out all but grave, and made out like hades could not describe the place the soul of the rich man was at, when clearly it can.  And yes, the punishments are forever.  I don't believe everyone has the same amount of torments for their transgressions, but all suffer to some degree for eternity.

 

I never said the rich man couldn't be in Hades, I said Hades in not the place of torment. You won't find a passage of Scripture that says people are tormented in Hades. 

 

Regarding the definition of Hades, As I said, the dictionary is like the commentary it's one's opinion. The question is can it found in the Scriptures. Can you show me a single passage of Scripture in the OT that requires Hades or sheol to mean a place where ghosts go? If you can't show that then you you can't say that the OT teaches it. It doesn't really matter what the author of a dictionary says. Dictionaries and commentaries can at times be helpful, however, they are "NOT" inspired. It's just like I said before about the translators translation Scripture, they bring a bias to their translation. If you believe that there is a ghost of man that lives on after death and you see a passage that says the rich man was in Hades they you're going to define Hades as a place for ghosts. The question is do the Scriptures require that definition?

 

I am going to go ahead and address this comment and come back to the others.  The definition of the word Hades allows for it to be used as a place where departed spirits go, and it can be a place of torment.  I can't find anything that shows it must be the grave, so that opens up the possibility that it is at times referring to a place of torment.  The definition of a word is just that.  It is the meaning of the word.  You tried to use the dictionary definition to show that hades is the grave, and wanted us to accept that as proof the rich man couldn't have been in a place of torment.  Now that I have shown the word can allow for such a use, you want to dismiss it.  In that story, the rich man was in a place of torment, so I would say the Bible does show the word used in that manner. 

[Guest Butero]

 

Those are excellent examples.  Thanks.  The only problem I have with them is that they are teaching false doctrine.  We know that they cannot be in the truth, as God himself is the one that ordered his people into battle time and again in the OT.  If killing during time of war was wrong, that would make God guilty of wrong doing.  The Bible says he is the same yesterday, today and forever.  Jesus himself will lead an army into battle at Armageddon.

 

My first question is this, if they are teaching false doctrine and are not in the truth of God why do you believe when they tell us who wrote the NT. They way we know who wrote it s from them. If we can’t trust what they say then we have no way to verify that the Scriptures we claim are inspired were actually written by the writers whose name they bear.

Another question I would ask is this, Jesus came to bring the Gospel. He taught His apostles. His apostles went out and taught the Gospel that He taught them.  Did they succeed? You see, the prohibition on the use of violence was universally taught in the early church. No one writes in approval of the use of violence, and this is over the entire region. That means that if Jesus and the apostle did teach that violence was OK, everyone they taught either didn’t understand or totally rejected what they taught on the subject. Either way it would indicate that they failed to establish the Gospel. I think Jesus and the apostles were successful in their establishing the Gospel.

I don’t want to derail this thread so I’m going to post a bunch of evidence for the teaching. I will say this, everyone who supports the use of violence must seek support from the OT as there is nothing in the NT to support that idea.

I've written a paper on this subject that goes into both Scriptural support and the historical evidence for the doctrine. Should Christians use Violence?

 

 

I appreciate where you are coming from.  You have writings of early church figures that oppose the use of war, so you figure that means war is evil.  I don't see it that way.  I believe that doctrine actually goes contrary to things found in the Bible itself.  I don't believe that Jesus came and changed things in the new covenant like some do.  When he taught things about the OT, he was clarifying errors that were created by the religious leaders.  He wasn't doing away with the law itself.  He certainly wouldn't come against God for telling people to fight battles, like the one at Jericho.

 

God is the judge, it’s His place to give life or take it, not ours. God told Israel when to go to war and when not to. What nation does He do that with today?

 

Actually, God did say that things would change when Christ came.

 

5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them. (Isa 42:5-9 KJV)

 

Paul quotes this

 

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2Co 5:17 KJV)

 

Jesus said he didn't come to do away with the law but to fulfill it.  The Bible also states that God is the same yesterday, today and forever.  If it is sinful to go to war, that would make God a transgressor.  It is in NT times that Jesus will lead the saints into battle.  I completely disagree with anyone that would interpret scripture to show war as sinful.  It should be avoided, but military service is not wrong, and neither is killing in time of war. Revelation is part of the New Testament, so yes, there is an example of Jesus participating in a war at Armageddon. 

[Guest Butero]

 

 

 

This is not correct.  The definition of Hades from the Greek Dictionary is...

The place (state) of departed souls:  grave, hell.

 

What here has contradicted what I said? Hades is the grave not the place of torment that is Gehenna.

 

 

One area we have had questions over is the body, soul and spirit, so lets look at these definitions.

body (soma) the body (as a sound whole), used in a very wide application, lit. or fig.: bodily, body, slave.

soul (psuche) breath, i.e. (by impl.) spirit

spirit (pneuma) a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by anal. or fig. a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by impl.) vital principle, mental disposition, etc.

 

Are you familiar with how Biblical dictionaries are made?

This isn’t really any different than the situation with the commentaries. I gave you Scripture show what a soul is. Can you show me anywhere in the OT where a soul and spirit are said to be one and the same. It doesn’t really matter if a dictionary says it if it’s not in Scripture. If the idea cannot be found in Scripture then it’s just the idea of the author.

The punishments of hell are forever.  Notice what it says in Mark 9:43-48

And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off:  it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:   Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.  And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off:  it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:  Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.  And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out:  it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:  Where their worm deith not, and the fire is not quenched.

Hell is real, and a place of eternal punishment for the wicked.

 

The results of the punishments are forever, not the duration.

 

What is not correct is your definition of hades.  It was incomplete.  The full definition is "the place (state) of departed souls:  grave, hell.  You chose to leave out all but grave, and made out like hades could not describe the place the soul of the rich man was at, when clearly it can.  And yes, the punishments are forever.  I don't believe everyone has the same amount of torments for their transgressions, but all suffer to some degree for eternity.

 

Another point about the definition. Aren't you assuming that the departed souls are alive? This definition says nothing about the departed souls being alive. If a soul is a person and we know when a person departs they're dead. We use that language today, the dearly departed. 

 

Let me ask you a question, do you believe that the ghosts of the dead are in the ground? Hades does mean the grave. Even if you say the ghost is alive Hades is still the grave. Is the Ghost 6 feet under in a pine box being tormented in flames?

 

Absolutely not.  The ghost or spirit of a person leaves their body when they die, and hades is a place where departed souls go.  It is either heaven or hell, depending on whether or not they are a Christian. 

[Guest Butero]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also, not sure if Butch mentioned this but Job 4:17 says:

 

Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

 

If man is mortal that means he dies.  I've heard the opposite but scripture is saying otherwise.

The physical body dies, but the spirit lives on.  It is the body that is mortal. 

 

 

DUST + BREATH FROM GOD = NEPHESH (living being, soul) Think of the example of a light bulb.

The bulb is like our body. The electricity is like the breath of God. Together, they make up energized light that sheds its brightness around it. Likewise, our body, without God's breath, is dark. We are alive because God puts life into us. Light Bulb + Electricity = Light Body (dust) + Breath from God (spirit) = Living Soul (living being, nephesh)

 

Here is where things get tricky with terminology.  I believe that man is a 3 part being:  body, soul and spirit, and that the spirit inside the body is the real person.  When a person dies, the spirit leaves the body, and the body sleeps in the grave.  The Christian is absent from the body and present with the Lord, like Paul spoke of.  He talked about how it would be better for him to depart and be in the presence of God, but for the sake of those he was leading, it was better he remain.  He had every expectation that if he died, he would immediately be in the presence of God. 

 

Did Paul actually say he expected to immediately be present with the Lord at this death? In that passage he actually says that he is not wanting to be absent from a body. If you look at the entire passage carefully you can see that Paul was actually talking about having a corruptible body and an incorruptible body. In the "now" he has a corruptible one. However, when he puts on his incorruptible one he will be with the Lord. If we look back to the OT passages about the dead we see that the dead know nothing. If the dead know nothing, then one would be conscious one moment, then die and no nothing until they were resurrected. It would seem to them to be immediate even though time had passed. It would seem immediate because they know nothing of the time they were dead. We could easily understand Paul's statement that way. His is in a corruptible body and he wants to put on his incorruptible body which won't happen until he is in the presence of Christ. One moment he is in this corruptible body, then he dies and the next thing he knows he's with the Lord. There is something here that many misread. Paul "Didn't" say to be absent from the body "IS" to be present with the Lord, he said "I am willing" rather to absent from the body "AND" present with the Lord. There's a big difference there.

 

Paul is well aware of the Greek influences on the Corinthians and makes a point to deny an existence outside of the body.

 

KJV  2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. (2Co 5:1-9 KJV)

 

His argument is that he doesn't want to be unclothed (without a body) but rather "Overclothed" with the incorruptible body. He says "that mortality might be swallowed up of life."

 

The Greek word  translated clothed upon in verse 4 means to put on over.

 

1902 evpendu,omai ependuomai {ep-en-doo'-om-ahee}

Meaning:  1) to put on over

 

I used the word "Overclothed". He's saying that he does't expect to put of his flesh body and assume a new one later. He expects to put the new one, the incorruptible one, on over his existing body. He said that mortality my be swallowed up of life (or the incorruptible).

 

His argument actually argues against what many Christians claim from this verse. I used to this verse too to argue this point, however, after seeing it more fully have realized that it was actually saying the opposite of what I was claiming.

 

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you, but I had things to take care of before I could look into your argument.  The house he is speaking of is not his glorified body.  He is speaking of his mansion in heaven that Jesus went away to prepare for the saints.  He is speaking of leaving his earthly tabernacle, (his body) and taking up residence in his home in heaven.  The Greek word translated house literally means a house.  It doesn't mean a body.  He doesn't say he is desiring to have his present body overclothed.  He is saying he is desiring to be absent from his body, and present with the Lord.  You have been saying you want someone to show you scripture that shows a person can be absent from this physical body and elsewhere.  I gave you one. 

 

The word does mean house, he's using it as a metaphor. 

 

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. (2Co 5:1 KJV)

 

It"s the same word so it means the same both times. Either he means a physical building both times or he means a body both times you can't just change it.

 

You said, "He doesn't say he is desiring to have his present body overclothed." That's exactly what he said.

 

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. (2Co 5:3-4 KJV)

 

He said he doesn't want to unclothed but clothed upon. The Greek word that is translated "clothed upon" means to put on over.

 

 

Actually, the Scriptures don't say anything about mansion is Heaven. What Jesus said was in my Father's house there are many mansions (rooms). Jesus didn't refer to Heaven as His Father's house.

 

13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,

14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:

15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

(Joh 2:13-16 KJV)

 

When Jesus spoke of His Father's house it was the temple. The many rooms were built like apartments for the priests when they were serving at the Temple. Jesus told the apostles that they would be reign with Him

 

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Mat 19:28 KJV)

 

And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. (Revelation 1:6 KJV)

 

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. (Rev 5:9-10 KJV)

 

Here is Ezekiel's description of the Temple

 

3 And he brought me thither, and, behold, there was a man, whose appearance was like the appearance of brass, with a line of flax in his hand, and a measuring reed; and he stood in the gate.

4 And the man said unto me, Son of man, behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears, and set thine heart upon all that I shall shew thee; for to the intent that I might shew them unto thee art thou brought hither: declare all that thou seest to the house of Israel.

5 And behold a wall on the outside of the house round about, and in the man's hand a measuring reed of six cubits long by the cubit and an hand breadth: so he measured the breadth of the building, one reed; and the height, one reed.

6 Then came he unto the gate which looketh toward the east, and went up the stairs thereof, and measured the threshold of the gate, which was one reed broad; and the other threshold of the gate, which was one reed broad.

7 And every little chamber was one reed long, and one reed broad; and between the little chambers were five cubits; and the threshold of the gate by the porch of the gate within was one reed.

8 He measured also the porch of the gate within, one reed.

9 Then measured he the porch of the gate, eight cubits; and the posts thereof, two cubits; and the porch of the gate was inward.

10 And the little chambers of the gate eastward were three on this side, and three on that side; they three were of one measure: and the posts had one measure on this side and on that side.

11 And he measured the breadth of the entry of the gate, ten cubits; and the length of the gate, thirteen cubits.

12 The space also before the little chambers was one cubit on this side, and the space was one cubit on that side: and the little chambers were six cubits on this side, and six cubits on that side.

13 He measured then the gate from the roof of one little chamber to the roof of another: the breadth was five and twenty cubits, door against door.

14 He made also posts of threescore cubits, even unto the post of the court round about the gate.

15 And from the face of the gate of the entrance unto the face of the porch of the inner gate were fifty cubits.

16 And there were narrow windows to the little chambers, and to their posts within the gate round about, and likewise to the arches: and windows were round about inward: and upon each post were palm trees.

17 Then brought he me into the outward court, and, lo, there were chambers, and a pavement made for the court round about: thirty chambers were upon the pavement.

18 And the pavement by the side of the gates over against the length of the gates was the lower pavement.

19 Then he measured the breadth from the forefront of the lower gate unto the forefront of the inner court without, an hundred cubits eastward and northward.

20 And the gate of the outward court that looked toward the north, he measured the length thereof, and the breadth thereof.

21 And the little chambers thereof were three on this side and three on that side; and the posts thereof and the arches thereof were after the measure of the first gate: the length thereof was fifty cubits, and the breadth five and twenty cubits.

22 And their windows, and their arches, and their palm trees, were after the measure of the gate that looketh toward the east; and they went up unto it by seven steps; and the arches thereof were before them.

23 And the gate of the inner court was over against the gate toward the north, and toward the east; and he measured from gate to gate an hundred cubits.

24 After that he brought me toward the south, and behold a gate toward the south: and he measured the posts thereof and the arches thereof according to these measures.

25 And there were windows in it and in the arches thereof round about, like those windows: the length was fifty cubits, and the breadth five and twenty cubits.

26 And there were seven steps to go up to it, and the arches thereof were before them: and it had palm trees, one on this side, and another on that side, upon the posts thereof.

27 And there was a gate in the inner court toward the south: and he measured from gate to gate toward the south an hundred cubits.

28 And he brought me to the inner court by the south gate: and he measured the south gate according to these measures;

29 And the little chambers thereof, and the posts thereof, and the arches thereof, according to these measures: and there were windows in it and in the arches thereof round about: it was fifty cubits long, and five and twenty cubits broad.

30 And the arches round about were five and twenty cubits long, and five cubits broad.

31 And the arches thereof were toward the utter court; and palm trees were upon the posts thereof: and the going up to it had eight steps.

32 And he brought me into the inner court toward the east: and he measured the gate according to these measures.

33 And the little chambers thereof, and the posts thereof, and the arches thereof, were according to these measures: and there were windows therein and in the arches thereof round about: it was fifty cubits long, and five and twenty cubits broad.

34 And the arches thereof were toward the outward court; and palm trees were upon the posts thereof, on this side, and on that side: and the going up to it had eight steps.

35 And he brought me to the north gate, and measured it according to these measures;

36 The little chambers thereof, the posts thereof, and the arches thereof, and the windows to it round about: the length was fifty cubits, and the breadth five and twenty cubits.

37 And the posts thereof were toward the utter court; and palm trees were upon the posts thereof, on this side, and on that side: and the going up to it had eight steps.

38 And the chambers and the entries thereof were by the posts of the gates, where they washed the burnt offering.

39 And in the porch of the gate were two tables on this side, and two tables on that side, to slay thereon the burnt offering and the sin offering and the trespass offering.

40 And at the side without, as one goeth up to the entry of the north gate, were two tables; and on the other side, which was at the porch of the gate, were two tables.

41 Four tables were on this side, and four tables on that side, by the side of the gate; eight tables, whereupon they slew their sacrifices.

42 And the four tables were of hewn stone for the burnt offering, of a cubit and an half long, and a cubit and an half broad, and one cubit high: whereupon also they laid the instruments wherewith they slew the burnt offering and the sacrifice.

43 And within were hooks, an hand broad, fastened round about: and upon the tables was the flesh of the offering.

44 And without the inner gate were the chambers of the singers in the inner court, which was at the side of the north gate; and their prospect was toward the south: one at the side of the east gate having the prospect toward the north.

45 And he said unto me, This chamber, whose prospect is toward the south, is for the priests, the keepers of the charge of the house.

46 And the chamber whose prospect is toward the north is for the priests, the keepers of the charge of the altar: these are the sons of Zadok among the sons of Levi, which come near to the LORD to minister unto him. (Eze 40:3-46 KJV)

 

When Jesus said that in his Father's house were many mansions, he was speaking of heaven.  He even said he was going to prepare a place for us.  He wasn't speaking of an earthly temple.  Why would he have to go away to prepare an earthly temple that already exists?  Paul makes it plain that the real him will exist outside his body, and he has a home prepared for him in heaven.  That is all he is speaking of when he speaks about being clothed in heaven.  He is speaking of leaving his earthly tabernacle (his body) and going to his new home (a mansion prepared for him in the Father's house in heaven.)