why this is important

[alphaparticle]

I get the sense from some people , who are not scientifically inclined, they think that while science is fine and all what's the point in dragging it into faith matters? Isn't the gospel simple? Why does it matter if evolution is true or not, why worry about it? Why does it matter if the universe is 14.5 billion years old or 10k yrs old? What does that affect anyway?

 

There's a point there sure. But, my opponents (the YEC who debate in this subforum) have a point also, and it's this, as I understand it. Science informs what we think is *really* true about the world. If there is a lot of scientific evidence that being exposed to plutonium causes cancer, I will avoid it. If there is a lot of scientific evidence that t he earth is round, that it goes around the sun, and that the sun is a star in the Milky Way, I will see the world that way now. That is, science is such a powerful tool for informing us about  how the physical world works, it can inform the worldviews we have powerfully. Ignoring that is perhaps naive. More than that, for people who are more scientifically inclined this effect is more powerful.

 

This, ultimately, is about what we think is true about the world, and perhaps what the default 'truth' is. When I want to know what is 'really real' where do I turn? If I had to put my future income on the line? my family? At the risk of exposing myself, I admit, I have struggled with this sort of thing. I instinctually believe 'the science'. I am challenged to have faith and see the 'greater' reality, the real reality, as being in God. For many of us, there is a tension there. I doesn't have to be that way, but it is. I have personally been convicted of having less faith while engaging in research. There are things happening that way I don't even really understand yet, which is for me a reason I engage in these discussions at all.

 

This isn't just about being curious about the world, or enjoying science as some hobby or career choice. At issue is a fundamental approach to the world. And insofar as I am correct in understanding the YEC crowd, I think they are correct about that.

[nebula]

It is true that our "world view" reflects how we interpret everything, even in science.

 

The weakness of science, as I see it, is forcing everyone to assume a Naturalistic world view - the view that "nature" is all that there is, no spiritual realm influencing us, no "supreme being" of any sort who is in command of it all.

 

When speaking of the things of the past, I take on the habit of saying such things as, "It is believed that," or "It has been concluded that," rather than, "It is." After all, is that nor more correct?

[alphaparticle]

It is true that our "world view" reflects how we interpret everything, even in science.

 

The weakness of science, as I see it, is forcing everyone to assume a Naturalistic world view - the view that "nature" is all that there is, no spiritual realm influencing us, no "supreme being" of any sort who is in command of it all.

 

When speaking of the things of the past, I take on the habit of saying such things as, "It is believed that," or "It has been concluded that," rather than, "It is." After all, is that nor more correct?

Yeah. I think the issue is, you are assuming naturalism, if even for a moment, to do it. Then, you see how well it all works out, how powerful the predictions are, how well we can control the world thinking like that. For me, at any rate, it's hard not to exist in tension between this implicit 'success' of science, associate that with naturalism, vs the more 'unpredictable' nature of spiritual encounters with God.

[nebula]

I recall a joke.

 

Man tells God he can do everything God can, including making human life.

 

God says, "Show me."

 

And so Man takes some dirt and begins shaping it.

 

God says, "Hold it right there. Make your own dirt!"

[alphaparticle]

I recall a joke.

 

Man tells God he can do everything God can, including making human life.

 

God says, "Show me."

 

And so Man takes some dirt and begins shaping it.

 

God says, "Hold it right there. Make your own dirt!"

lol yeah. That's about it I think.

[gray wolf]

I'm afraid I missed something. What is the question?

[alphaparticle]

I'm afraid I missed something. What is the question?

It's more of a reflection that is open to discussion if others have thoughts about it. It has to do with science demanding cognitive loyalty, basically.

[Enoch2021]

I get the sense from some people , who are not scientifically inclined, they think that while science is fine and all what's the point in dragging it into faith matters? Isn't the gospel simple? Why does it matter if evolution is true or not, why worry about it? Why does it matter if the universe is 14.5 billion years old or 10k yrs old? What does that affect anyway?

 

There's a point there sure. But, my opponents (the YEC who debate in this subforum) have a point also, and it's this, as I understand it. Science informs what we think is *really* true about the world. If there is a lot of scientific evidence that being exposed to plutonium causes cancer, I will avoid it. If there is a lot of scientific evidence that t he earth is round, that it goes around the sun, and that the sun is a star in the Milky Way, I will see the world that way now. That is, science is such a powerful tool for informing us about  how the physical world works, it can inform the worldviews we have powerfully. Ignoring that is perhaps naive. More than that, for people who are more scientifically inclined this effect is more powerful.

 

This, ultimately, is about what we think is true about the world, and perhaps what the default 'truth' is. When I want to know what is 'really real' where do I turn? If I had to put my future income on the line? my family? At the risk of exposing myself, I admit, I have struggled with this sort of thing. I instinctually believe 'the science'. I am challenged to have faith and see the 'greater' reality, the real reality, as being in God. For many of us, there is a tension there. I doesn't have to be that way, but it is. I have personally been convicted of having less faith while engaging in research. There are things happening that way I don't even really understand yet, which is for me a reason I engage in these discussions at all.

 

This isn't just about being curious about the world, or enjoying science as some hobby or career choice. At issue is a fundamental approach to the world. And insofar as I am correct in understanding the YEC crowd, I think they are correct about that.

 

Hey Alpha,

 

Don't know if I am the official Spokesperson for YEC (yet LOL), but I'll give it a shot.

 

"they think that while science is fine and all what's the point in dragging it into faith matters?"

 

Ironically, the "Founding Fathers" of science were Creationists attempting to explain/discover the Awesomeness of GOD'S Creation.  Don't know when science separated from it's original tenet;  Science = Knowledge..... to...... Science = Naturalistic Explanations of Knowledge only.

 

The Irony turns into a Full Blown Contradiction, How?  Well "Naturalistic" explanations are Material....and Knowledge is SUPERNATURAL.  You can't put Information >>>>> Knowledge >>>>>> or TRUTH in a Jar and Paint it RED. .......

 

It's tantamount to trying to discover what we breathe...... but, a priori excluding AIR from the choices....and breathing it all while attempting to rule it out !!!!! 

 

"Why does it matter if the universe is 14.5 billion years old or 10k yrs old?"

 

Ask OEC'ers.

 

"Isn't the gospel simple?"

 

Well it's all ONE BOOK.  The Gospel isn't separate from the OLD Testament.

 

"Why does it matter if evolution is true or not, why worry about it?"

 

Because it's a Clear assault, contradiction, and undermines the WORD of GOD.  Why does it matter?  Did Jesus just let the Pharisees "go" or exclaim; "why does it matter" when they undermined GOD's Word?

 

"Science informs what we think is *really* true about the world."

 

Personally, I Love "Science"....what I take issue with is a priori fairytales masqueraded under the guise of "science", (to impart some conjured pseudo-legitimacy through equivocation), that are merely Extrapolations from Assumptions.

 

 

"That is, science is such a powerful tool for informing us about  how the physical world works, it can inform the worldviews we have powerfully."

 

You betcha, and they better follow Protocol or I will EXPOSE them..... Systematically.  My assigned Goal In Life!!!

 

 

"When I want to know what is 'really real' where do I turn? If I had to put my future income on the line? my family? At the risk of exposing myself, I admit, I have struggled with this sort of thing. I instinctually believe 'the science'."

 

This is where we differ (well one place ): Science is man's word....(Romans 3:10-13) "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:  {11} There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.  {12} They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.  {13} Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:"

 

or

 

GOD's WORD. 

 

I don't know about you but for me it's a MegaTsunamic Landslide in a Planck Time!!!

 

This is the Hierarchy for me personally:

 

Assumptions/Conjecture/Stories >>> "Scientific Evidence" (via The Scientific Method) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Scripture (not to scale or Scripture would be past the "Crab Nebula" to the Right)

 

and, I never look @ any issue in a Vacuum.  1st is the WORD then (if applicable) I look @ what Science has to say.  I never look @ science and then attempt to reconcile the WORD through it.

 

 

"I have personally been convicted of having less faith while engaging in research."

 

And as a result of this personal conundrum.......  I see BIG THINGS for You ALPHA!!!!! 

[gray wolf]

The naturalists have some very good evidence for their ideas. I believe God is the creator, but I would advise against dismissing their claims as fairy tales or what not.

[MorningGlory]

I recall a joke.

 

Man tells God he can do everything God can, including making human life.

 

God says, "Show me."

 

And so Man takes some dirt and begins shaping it.

 

God says, "Hold it right there. Make your own dirt!"

 

 Hee hee!