Creation evangelism in Japan

[alphaparticle]

 

But YEC is *not* the gospel that actually saves.

 

That's right, it isn't.  I didn't say it was.  The point is that it not a hindrance to the Gospel. 

 

 

Perhaps YEC itself isn't, but having it explicitly linked at the outset may be.

 

 

 

 

Yes, Jesus is an offense. But why make the barrier even higher than it needs to be?? Why provide a convenient route of distraction from the core of the issue, our personal sin, the punishment of sin, and our need of help? And it IS convenient for a lot of people who can simplistically collapse Christianity into YEC, talk about how stupid it is without having to deal with the central issue, and move on.

 

But that means never talking about anything that might  rustle the feathers of some people.  What you're suggesting could be applied to just about anything isn't the "central" issue.   It means muting the church on any issue that might serve as a "distraction."   It would mean that the Church would have to tailor everything to suit what the hearer is willing to listen to, which pretty much excludes all of the Bible except from some benign passages out of Psalms.  

 

 

 

Alright I don't mean this. For instance, if you are presenting the gospel to someone who is very liberal minded, and at the outset insisted that they see and label homosexuality as sinful, that could get in the way of the actual gospel message and be an unnecessary roadblock. It seems unnecessary and unwise, surely that could be addressed later. However, that being said, there's no reason to hide it, or not answer truthfully if they ask about it. I just wouldn't see the wisdom in insisting that someone 'get it' before considering the central issues of the gospel message.

 

I'd say likewise here. Although I am not YEC I certainly understand others being straightforward about their being YEC and sharing why if others inquire or if it comes up naturally in the course of discussing these things. I question the wisdom of at the outset presenting it hand in hand with the central gospel message to unbelievers though.

 

 

 

 

Except nobody's fixated on creationism.  It might appear that way because we are interacting in a series of threads dedicated to that issue, but creationists are not one issue people.  What I see coming from your side is an attempt to intimidating YEC'ers from talking about it because if someone hears us, they may run the other way and reject Christianity altogether and that is simply not true.  It is a  scare tactic and it won't work.

 

Peoplpe reject the Lord because of the hardness of their hearts, not because we are YEC'ers or whatever reason.  It is the hardness of their hearts that is at fault and when they stand before the Lord in eternity, they won't be able to use that excuse.  They will have made their decision and they are accountable to Him for it.   They will have no one to blame but themselves.

That I find extremely unfortunate. There are a lot of *unnecessary* barriers being erected to the gospel, when, as you point out, the central gospel claims are offense enough.

 

 

Okay, that is a fair point about a seeming 'fixation'. This is a subforum that ends up being somewhat dedicated to that issue so it no doubts skews my perception of how people would present things.

 

On the other hand, I am not trying to scare away anyone. What I am sharing is, if you excuse the cliche, straight from the heart. It's a real concern I have born from my own struggles as well as what I know of others, not an artificial attempt to shut down conversation.

 

I don't think any one person is to blame for someone not accepting the gospel, except the person who faces the choice to accept or reject it. That is not my point at all. If the question is effective communication though, I think the message is going to be unnecessary muffled the more stuff that is added, at the outset, in explaining this to an unbeliever. If you burden them at the outset with thinking that homosexuality is a sin, that evolution is completely false and moreover, the universe is only 6k years old, and so on-- along with the stuff that makes the difference to them being saved or not, the conversation could very well end up on side roads that aren't, at that point, necessary.

 

I want to reiterate, if people are straight up asking about this, or it comes up naturally otherwise, that is one thing. I just don't think this should be the packaging. The core gospel is, as you've pointed out, already offense enough.

[LookingForAnswers]

 

I believe the pinnig of the gospels with the technical aspect of creation is used by some as a filter. I have found more than a few Christians that like what they see as the exclusive nature of Christianity and while they would never openly admit it, they work to keep it as exclusive as possible. They don't want those people that don't look like them or think like them or act like them in the fold.

All of that is a pile of garbage having no intellectual or substantive merit, much less a basis in reality.

 

 

Oh come now, with a simple look around at churches one can observe this going on each and every week.  Dress this way or your not really welcome.  Don't drink beer, don't listen to music we don't approve of, agree with what we believe....each of these are attempts to keep their faith exclusive to people like themselves.

[gray wolf]

I don't think that's a conscious effort, particularly not as far as Young Earthers go.   They vehemently preach their message because they believe in it, not to exclude anyone.  I actually agree with Alpha, that too early an exposure to these ideas can be counterproductive.  Let the seeker have the Gospel, then when she is secure as a Christian let God reveal Truth; through the Word and through creation (incl. science)

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

I believe the pinnig of the gospels with the technical aspect of creation is used by some as a filter. I have found more than a few Christians that like what they see as the exclusive nature of Christianity and while they would never openly admit it, they work to keep it as exclusive as possible. They don't want those people that don't look like them or think like them or act like them in the fold.

All of that is a pile of garbage having no intellectual or substantive merit, much less a basis in reality.

 

 

Oh come now, with a simple look around at churches one can observe this going on each and every week.  Dress this way or your not really welcome.  Don't drink beer, don't listen to music we don't approve of, agree with what we believe....each of these are attempts to keep their faith exclusive to people like themselves.

 

Nonsense. 

[Guest]

I believe the pinning of the gospels with the technical aspect of creation is used by some as a filter. I have found more than a few Christians that like what they see as the exclusive nature of Christianity and while they would never openly admit it, they work to keep it as exclusive as possible. They don't want those people that don't look like them or think like them or act like them in the fold.

 

All of that is a pile of garbage having no intellectual or substantive merit, much less a basis in reality.

 

Oh come now, with a simple look around at churches one can observe this going on each and every week.  Dress this way or your not really welcome.  Don't drink beer, don't listen to music we don't approve of, agree with what we believe....each of these are attempts to keep their faith exclusive to people like themselves.

 

 

Pinning Those Scientific Speculations Of The Many Many Unholy Books Of Men

 

O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: 1 Timothy 6:20

 

Onto The Historical Truths Of The One Holy Book Of The Almighty

 

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

 

Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 1 Peter 1:18-20

 

Can Lead A Fellow Away From Jesus

 

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. Hebrews 3:12

 

To A Life Of Utter

 

Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Romans 3:14

 

Bitterness

 

And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes. Romans 3:17-18

 

~

 

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Proverbs 3:5-6

 

Love, Joe

 

~

 

Praying~!

[LookingForAnswers]

 

 

 

I believe the pinnig of the gospels with the technical aspect of creation is used by some as a filter. I have found more than a few Christians that like what they see as the exclusive nature of Christianity and while they would never openly admit it, they work to keep it as exclusive as possible. They don't want those people that don't look like them or think like them or act like them in the fold.

All of that is a pile of garbage having no intellectual or substantive merit, much less a basis in reality.

 

 

Oh come now, with a simple look around at churches one can observe this going on each and every week.  Dress this way or your not really welcome.  Don't drink beer, don't listen to music we don't approve of, agree with what we believe....each of these are attempts to keep their faith exclusive to people like themselves.

 

Nonsense. 

 

 

What other explanations is there for such actions by those who claim to follow Jesus?  These are all ways to control who gets to join the club and to drive away those that dont fit your view of what a Christian should look like.  

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

 

 

I believe the pinnig of the gospels with the technical aspect of creation is used by some as a filter. I have found more than a few Christians that like what they see as the exclusive nature of Christianity and while they would never openly admit it, they work to keep it as exclusive as possible. They don't want those people that don't look like them or think like them or act like them in the fold.

All of that is a pile of garbage having no intellectual or substantive merit, much less a basis in reality.

 

 

Oh come now, with a simple look around at churches one can observe this going on each and every week.  Dress this way or your not really welcome.  Don't drink beer, don't listen to music we don't approve of, agree with what we believe....each of these are attempts to keep their faith exclusive to people like themselves.

 

Nonsense. 

 

 

What other explanations is there for such actions by those who claim to follow Jesus?  These are all ways to control who gets to join the club and to drive away those that dont fit your view of what a Christian should look like.  

 

There may be a few churches like that, but the overwhelming majority of churches are not like that.    It's just that right now, this kind of blanket, broad brush characterizations are currently in vogue, usually coming from people who are really part of a church and use these kind of low-browed characterizations as excuses to justify their lack of participation.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

Alright I don't mean this. For instance, if you are presenting the gospel to someone who is very liberal minded, and at the outset insisted that they see and label homosexuality as sinful, that could get in the way of the actual gospel message and be an unnecessary roadblock. It seems unnecessary and unwise, surely that could be addressed later. However, that being said, there's no reason to hide it, or not answer truthfully if they ask about it. I just wouldn't see the wisdom in insisting that someone 'get it' before considering the central issues of the gospel message.

 

I'd say likewise here. Although I am not YEC I certainly understand others being straightforward about their being YEC and sharing why if others inquire or if it comes up naturally in the course of discussing these things. I question the wisdom of at the outset presenting it hand in hand with the central gospel message to unbelievers though.

 

Yes and that is the common mischaraterization that is being put forth by you and others on here.   I, for my part, am not saying that we need to bring up these kinds of issues in evagelism, as if we are going to present the Gospel and then say, "oh and by the way,"  you have to believe the earth is 6,000 years old."  

 

That is an unfair charicature of  our position.   The entire premise that YEC keeps people from accepting Christ is a smokescreen and a false claim.  It doesn't and it never has.  But in the absence of an intelligent argument that is what it put forth to us in order to intimidate us from saying anything about it.

 

The argument that some would make is that Ken Ham in the debate with Bill Nye basically thwarted evangelism because He brought up the Bible and YEC model. Nothing could be further from the truth.

 

I don't think any one person is to blame for someone not accepting the gospel, except the person who faces the choice to accept or reject it. That is not my point at all. If the question is effective communication though, I think the message is going to be unnecessary muffled the more stuff that is added, at the outset, in explaining this to an unbeliever. If you burden them at the outset with thinking that homosexuality is a sin, that evolution is completely false and moreover, the universe is only 6k years old, and so on-- along with the stuff that makes the difference to them being saved or not, the conversation could very well end up on side roads that aren't, at that point, necessary

 

I agree with that, completely.

[LookingForAnswers]

That is an unfair charicature of  our position.   The entire premise that YEC keeps people from accepting Christ is a smokescreen and a false claim.  It doesn't and it never has.  But in the absence of an intelligent argument that is what it put forth to us in order to intimidate us from saying anything about it.

 

 

and yet you have had multiple people on this forum tell you that YEC was a hindrance to them and you continue to either ignore them or you are calling them lairs, neither of which is good.  It stands to reason that if there are a dozen people on here who have overcome the stumbling block that is YEC that there are likely many more that have not done so.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

That is an unfair charicature of  our position.   The entire premise that YEC keeps people from accepting Christ is a smokescreen and a false claim.  It doesn't and it never has.  But in the absence of an intelligent argument that is what it put forth to us in order to intimidate us from saying anything about it.

 

 

and yet you have had multiple people on this forum tell you that YEC was a hindrance to them and you continue to either ignore them or you are calling them lairs, neither of which is good.  It stands to reason that if there are a dozen people on here who have overcome the stumbling block that is YEC that there are likely many more that have not done so.

 

I am not calling anyone "liars."   I am simply pointing to the fact that they misidentifying the real cause for people to stumble at the truth of Scripture.