YEC and OEC Summary

[a-seeker]

ABove Enoch claimed that God made the lights instantaneously, on the grounds that the light appeared on earth on the 4th day, for they could not serve the purpose of dating seasons for man if it would take their waves/particles to reach earth in a billion years.

I am not going to argue against this because I think it is irrelevant to the purpose of Genesis; but I would like us to think clearly about what that means--I don't have very much science under my belt, so I am open to correction. Technically, for that split second (0.00000000000000000000001) light did not "travel" from their sources to us. God created both the source of light (stars), and the light waves at the same time--and these light waves/particles extended uniformly from earth to their distant sources. That is what instantaneous means.

There is something....almost contradictory? about this scene. Can waves behave in such a manner?

Again, after that split nano-second, light assumed the behavior we are all accustomed to....would that not mean that absolute darkness would follow for a billion years? Or did the speed of light slow down at such a rate that light always reached us even while reaching its current speed, which scientists say cannot be exceeded?

Again, questions, but perhaps questions with a bite.

clb

 

 

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I am not going to argue against this because I think it is irrelevant to the purpose of Genesis;

 

If it was Irrelevant then why did GOD put it there?

 

 

Technically, for that split second (0.00000000000000000000001) light did not "travel" from their sources to us.

 

Don't no exactly how long it took...but it was the same Day, Day 4

 

 

There is something....almost contradictory? about this scene. Can waves behave in such a manner?

 

It's not "contradictory" @ All.  Your question in this Genre's is (and is actually the only argument)..... were the Laws/Constants during Creation Week different than the Current Laws as we know them NOW??......  That's why I provided the specific example of ADAM being formed but the WHOLE 1st Chapter of Genesis ANSWERS that Question for you, The ANSWER is a Resounding....................YES, The Laws/Constants Were DIFFERENT!

 

would that not mean that absolute darkness would follow for a billion years?

 

No, why and how so?

at some point the light achieves an actual "speed". That means it has a certain distance to travel. before it reaches Adam, there is, as far as he can tell, NO stars. WE have moved from instantaneous light to light at a particular speed which, given the distance, is rather slow in getting to us.

We can use the claim that scientists have slowed down light. Light from my lamp reaches my eye seemingly instantaneous; now slow down that light to a turtles crawl. The room will be absolutely dark until the light impinges upon my senses. It is the same case with stars. Certainly, an observer at the moment of the stars creation (assuming that not only the source of light but the light waves themselves were created already reaching us) would see them....but once the speed of light reduces from "infinite" to C, that light will take billions of years to reach my retina....which means, I won't see them....which means, no visible stars.

 

 

Or did the speed of light slow down at such a rate that light always reached us even while reaching its current speed, which scientists say cannot be exceeded?

 

Did you know that "scientists" have sped up the Speed of Light to like 3 times as Fast and have slowed it to a complete Stop!!?  Don't hold me to those exact "3 times"...but it's something near the vicinity, maybe more.

based on all your posts, shouldn't I be EXTREMELY skeptical on this....perhaps they are only "claiming" to have sped it.

 

Check this....

 

Source:  http://www.livescience.com/396-scientists-mess-speed-light.html

[a-seeker]

ABove Enoch claimed that God made the lights instantaneously, on the grounds that the light appeared on earth on the 4th day, for they could not serve the purpose of dating seasons for man if it would take their waves/particles to reach earth in a billion years.

I am not going to argue against this because I think it is irrelevant to the purpose of Genesis; but I would like us to think clearly about what that means--I don't have very much science under my belt, so I am open to correction. Technically, for that split second (0.00000000000000000000001) light did not "travel" from their sources to us. God created both the source of light (stars), and the light waves at the same time--and these light waves/particles extended uniformly from earth to their distant sources. That is what instantaneous means.

There is something....almost contradictory? about this scene. Can waves behave in such a manner?

Again, after that split nano-second, light assumed the behavior we are all accustomed to....would that not mean that absolute darkness would follow for a billion years? Or did the speed of light slow down at such a rate that light always reached us even while reaching its current speed, which scientists say cannot be exceeded?

Again, questions, but perhaps questions with a bite.

clb

 

 

======================================================================

 

 

I am not going to argue against this because I think it is irrelevant to the purpose of Genesis;

 

If it was Irrelevant then why did GOD put it there?

God didn't put any theory of the speed of light in Genesis; that is your solution to problems it raises. I have already proposed what I think the real significance of Genesis.

 

 

Technically, for that split second (0.00000000000000000000001) light did not "travel" from their sources to us.

 

Don't no exactly how long it took...but it was the same Day, Day 4

 

 

There is something....almost contradictory? about this scene. Can waves behave in such a manner?

 

It's not "contradictory" @ All.  Your question in this Genre's is (and is actually the only argument)..... were the Laws/Constants during Creation Week different than the Current Laws as we know them NOW??......  That's why I provided the specific example of ADAM being formed but the WHOLE 1st Chapter of Genesis ANSWERS that Question for you, The ANSWER is a Resounding....................YES, The Laws/Constants Were DIFFERENT!

 

would that not mean that absolute darkness would follow for a billion years?

 

No, why and how so?

 

 

Or did the speed of light slow down at such a rate that light always reached us even while reaching its current speed, which scientists say cannot be exceeded?

 

Did you know that "scientists" have sped up the Speed of Light to like 3 times as Fast and have slowed it to a complete Stop!!?  Don't hold me to those exact "3 times"...but it's something near the vicinity, maybe more.

 

Check this....

 

Source:  http://www.livescience.com/396-scientists-mess-speed-light.html

[a-seeker]

 

ABove Enoch claimed that God made the lights instantaneously, on the grounds that the light appeared on earth on the 4th day, for they could not serve the purpose of dating seasons for man if it would take their waves/particles to reach earth in a billion years.

I am not going to argue against this because I think it is irrelevant to the purpose of Genesis; but I would like us to think clearly about what that means--I don't have very much science under my belt, so I am open to correction. Technically, for that split second (0.00000000000000000000001) light did not "travel" from their sources to us. God created both the source of light (stars), and the light waves at the same time--and these light waves/particles extended uniformly from earth to their distant sources. That is what instantaneous means.

There is something....almost contradictory? about this scene. Can waves behave in such a manner?

Again, after that split nano-second, light assumed the behavior we are all accustomed to....would that not mean that absolute darkness would follow for a billion years? Or did the speed of light slow down at such a rate that light always reached us even while reaching its current speed, which scientists say cannot be exceeded?

Again, questions, but perhaps questions with a bite.

clb

 

Or it could be that the stars were created prior to that and on day 4 they were made visable. 

 

How in the world can I justify that from the text?  Such a maneuver (which might not be your own) sounds desperate.

 

clb

[jerryR34]

Can you give the relative occurrence of these polystrate fossil trees?  If they are a result of the flood, there must have been billions of them, and they must now be very common.  As you can only post a few examples, that would lead me to believe they are rare, and therefore, occur sporadically at the edges of unusual geologic occurrences. 

[LookingForAnswers]

 

 

ABove Enoch claimed that God made the lights instantaneously, on the grounds that the light appeared on earth on the 4th day, for they could not serve the purpose of dating seasons for man if it would take their waves/particles to reach earth in a billion years.

I am not going to argue against this because I think it is irrelevant to the purpose of Genesis; but I would like us to think clearly about what that means--I don't have very much science under my belt, so I am open to correction. Technically, for that split second (0.00000000000000000000001) light did not "travel" from their sources to us. God created both the source of light (stars), and the light waves at the same time--and these light waves/particles extended uniformly from earth to their distant sources. That is what instantaneous means.

There is something....almost contradictory? about this scene. Can waves behave in such a manner?

Again, after that split nano-second, light assumed the behavior we are all accustomed to....would that not mean that absolute darkness would follow for a billion years? Or did the speed of light slow down at such a rate that light always reached us even while reaching its current speed, which scientists say cannot be exceeded?

Again, questions, but perhaps questions with a bite.

clb

 

Or it could be that the stars were created prior to that and on day 4 they were made visable. 

 

How in the world can I justify that from the text?  Such a maneuver (which might not be your own) sounds desperate.

 

clb

 

 

It comes down to the word used for "made" in the original Hebrew, "asah" which has a multitude of meanings not unlike the English word "made".   If I told you that I made my bed this morning, would you think I covered it with sheets or that I got the wood and screws and such and created it from scratch.  The word "asah" carries a different connotation than the word "bara" which is to create out of nothing.  There has to be a reason that God choose different words for different things in Genesis 1. 

[Enoch2021]

 

 

ABove Enoch claimed that God made the lights instantaneously, on the grounds that the light appeared on earth on the 4th day, for they could not serve the purpose of dating seasons for man if it would take their waves/particles to reach earth in a billion years.

I am not going to argue against this because I think it is irrelevant to the purpose of Genesis; but I would like us to think clearly about what that means--I don't have very much science under my belt, so I am open to correction. Technically, for that split second (0.00000000000000000000001) light did not "travel" from their sources to us. God created both the source of light (stars), and the light waves at the same time--and these light waves/particles extended uniformly from earth to their distant sources. That is what instantaneous means.

There is something....almost contradictory? about this scene. Can waves behave in such a manner?

Again, after that split nano-second, light assumed the behavior we are all accustomed to....would that not mean that absolute darkness would follow for a billion years? Or did the speed of light slow down at such a rate that light always reached us even while reaching its current speed, which scientists say cannot be exceeded?

Again, questions, but perhaps questions with a bite.

clb

 

 

======================================================================

 

 

I am not going to argue against this because I think it is irrelevant to the purpose of Genesis;

 

If it was Irrelevant then why did GOD put it there?

 

 

Technically, for that split second (0.00000000000000000000001) light did not "travel" from their sources to us.

 

Don't no exactly how long it took...but it was the same Day, Day 4

 

 

There is something....almost contradictory? about this scene. Can waves behave in such a manner?

 

It's not "contradictory" @ All.  Your question in this Genre's is (and is actually the only argument)..... were the Laws/Constants during Creation Week different than the Current Laws as we know them NOW??......  That's why I provided the specific example of ADAM being formed but the WHOLE 1st Chapter of Genesis ANSWERS that Question for you, The ANSWER is a Resounding....................YES, The Laws/Constants Were DIFFERENT!

 

would that not mean that absolute darkness would follow for a billion years?

 

No, why and how so?

at some point the light achieves an actual "speed". That means it has a certain distance to travel. before it reaches Adam, there is, as far as he can tell, NO stars. WE have moved from instantaneous light to light at a particular speed which, given the distance, is rather slow in getting to us.

We can use the claim that scientists have slowed down light. Light from my lamp reaches my eye seemingly instantaneous; now slow down that light to a turtles crawl. The room will be absolutely dark until the light impinges upon my senses. It is the same case with stars. Certainly, an observer at the moment of the stars creation (assuming that not only the source of light but the light waves themselves were created already reaching us) would see them....but once the speed of light reduces from "infinite" to C, that light will take billions of years to reach my retina....which means, I won't see them....which means, no visible stars.

 

 

Or did the speed of light slow down at such a rate that light always reached us even while reaching its current speed, which scientists say cannot be exceeded?

 

Did you know that "scientists" have sped up the Speed of Light to like 3 times as Fast and have slowed it to a complete Stop!!?  Don't hold me to those exact "3 times"...but it's something near the vicinity, maybe more.

based on all your posts, shouldn't I be EXTREMELY skeptical on this....perhaps they are only "claiming" to have sped it.

 

Check this....

 

Source:  http://www.livescience.com/396-scientists-mess-speed-light.html

 

 

 

 

============================================================================

 

That means it has a certain distance to travel. before it reaches Adam, there is, as far as he can tell, NO stars. WE have moved from instantaneous light to light at a particular speed which, given the distance, is rather slow in getting to us.

 

Well He Created it 2 days before Adam.....but I understand what you're saying.

 

 

Light from my lamp reaches my eye seemingly instantaneous; now slow down that light to a turtles crawl. The room will be absolutely dark until the light impinges upon my senses.

 

Yes, depends on the position of the Observer.

 

 

Certainly, an observer at the moment of the stars creation (assuming that not only the source of light but the light waves themselves were created already reaching us) would see them....but once the speed of light reduces from "infinite" to C, that light will take billions of years to reach my retina....which means, I won't see them....which means, no visible stars.

 

Got it, very well done! There is another factor with HIM "Stretching Out The Heavens".  I have thought of it before and then decided to clean the bathroom LOL.  It's @ that point where I let GOD be GOD and take HIS WORD for it 

 

 

 

based on all your posts, shouldn't I be EXTREMELY skeptical on this....perhaps they are only "claiming" to have sped it.

 

No you shouldn't and I have given No Reason @ ALL otherwise!  Tread Lightly in this Genre SIR!!! 

[a-seeker]

Enoch,

 

Yet again my claim to have mastered the quoting mechanism is refuted....so I must paraphrase

 

Are you saying that the question, "what genre is a particular text?" is NOT important?  That to ask that question is already to get side-tracked?  How is one to differentiate a parable from a psalm if they don't ask this question?

 

I said above that Scripture has two authors who are not at odds.  I made this clear by saying author/AUTHOR.  The Great AUTHOR working through the human author.  All accusations that I think Scripture uninspired really need to stop--if you must put up a strawman, put up a new one for a change, that one has taken its beating.

 

And no.  It is not quite simply an historical narrative.  You need to spend less time obsessing over science and more time studying the culture behind Genesis and the text itself. Read some real scholars who don't care about science and have done a life-time work in ancient texts and languages.

 

Do I presume to know the mind of God?  In some instances, yes, for God has told me through His word.  You claim the same thing: you claim it is CLEARLY an historical narrative--that is, that you have looked into the mind of God and presume to know what He intended when writing Genesis.  Again, Sir, a strawman.  Please put together a new one; that one is obliterated and it looks silly to see a man swinging at a bunch of straw scattered about.

 

The other flood accounts bear too many similarities to God's flood--are you saying that they had the Genesis text and corrupted it?  Demonstrate this!

 

clb

Edited February 17, 2014 by ConnorLiamBrown

[a-seeker]

Quote

Certainly, an observer at the moment of the stars creation (assuming that not only the source of light but the light waves themselves were created already reaching us) would see them....but once the speed of light reduces from "infinite" to C, that light will take billions of years to reach my retina....which means, I won't see them....which means, no visible stars.

 

Got it, very well done! There is another factor with HIM "Stretching Out The Heavens".  I have thought of it before and then decided to clean the bathroom LOL.  It's @ that point where I let GOD be GOD and take HIS WORD for it  

 

 

 

So, there was immediate light on day 4 from the stars................then millions of years during which it appeared there were NO stars; so they really didn't help for seasons etc.

[Enoch2021]

I'll be out for a good part of this evening.....Kids Soccer.  I will answer your post either late tonight or tomorrow.

 

Please look up the Definition of a "Strawman" Argument.

[Enoch2021]

 

Quote

Certainly, an observer at the moment of the stars creation (assuming that not only the source of light but the light waves themselves were created already reaching us) would see them....but once the speed of light reduces from "infinite" to C, that light will take billions of years to reach my retina....which means, I won't see them....which means, no visible stars.

 

Got it, very well done! There is another factor with HIM "Stretching Out The Heavens".  I have thought of it before and then decided to clean the bathroom LOL.  It's @ that point where I let GOD be GOD and take HIS WORD for it  

 

 

 

So, there was immediate light on day 4 from the stars................then millions of years during which it appeared there were NO stars; so they really didn't help for seasons etc.

 

 

uhh,  No