A little freaked out

[EnochBethany]

 

I just came upon a site trying to attack a man of God because he preaches Lordship Salvation:

 

 

 

LORDSHIP SALVATION is the false doctrine that a sinner MUST be willing to stop living a sinful lifestyle or to give up the sinful world to be saved.  In sharp contrast, the Bible, God's Word, teaches that a sinner's faith in Christ alone is sufficient for salvation.  Salvation is receiving, not giving.  Eternal life is a gift.

 

 

 

I could post the site link but I don't know if it'll do any good.  If people want it then I will.  Clearly this person hsa not read through the four gospels enough.  What do people expect the gospel to be???  Except:  Repent!  For the Kingdom of God is at hand!  If that isn't God declaring His Lordship and demanding we submit to it in order to be saved, then what else is it?  Why would we not accept that the Lord is God if we truly believe in Him?

 

I'm concerned because there are people out there who believe some other gospel and hold the true one as false.  How many, I don't know, but I suspect a significant amount.  I did feel bad for the man of God and his reputation, but I soon felt wrse for those upholding this lie and the judgement they will come under.  That is what freaks me out.  Am I on my own here???????

 

 

 

Ephesians 2:8-9

⁸ For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

⁹ Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

 

Not faith alone, but grace through faith! 

 

 

Acts 20:24

But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

 

 

Grace from the LORD Jesus!

 

 

 

 

 

Lordship Salvation:

 

Over & over the Bible offers salvation on only one condition, faith or trust in the Lord Jesus.  Works are excluded. 

 

1) Any doctrine which teaches that one must promise to obey Christ to be saved is a works salvation heresy.

 

2) The proponents of "Lordship salvation" seem to misunderstand the quotations they use.  The word Lord has a number of uses.  One is that of boss.  Another is that of YHWH.  The NT uses kyrios (Lord) for the tetragrammaton, personal name of God in the OT in quotes from the OT.  "Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." In context Lord = the Lord Jesus, but it is a quote from Joel where it is YHWH.  So Rom 10:13 is calling Jesus YHWH.  It is not a matter of promising to treat Jesus as the boss.  It is a matter of having Him adequately defined.  To be saved, you must trust in Christ (one way to exercise that trust is in a call to Him).  But when you approach Christ, you must have him adequately defined as man and as YHWH God, which of course implies that you have Him defined as the boss of the universe.  But that is not the same as promising to obey Him.

 

3) The necessity of recognizing that the Lord Jesus is the Lord-boss, is an imperative incumbent upon all persons in all times & places.  Therefore, it is no heresy for an evangelist to urge people to accept Christ as Savior & Lord.  But what saves is merely trusting Him as Savior -- nothing more nor less.  Justification is by faith, the one requirement put upon man.

 

"Repent, for the Kingdom of God is at hand," is a message peculiar to the Gospels, in view of the King presenting Him as Israel's King and the possibility of realizing Israel's promised Kingdom.

 

"Repent" (metanoia) means "change of mind."  Bible repentance is not primarily sorrow for sin or turning over a new leaf.  The only change of mind that saves is a change from disbelief to belief in the Lord Jesus (in other words, faith, trust).  There remains one way of salvation as a thing man must do:  Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ & you shall be saved.

 

Grace is not something man does; that is God's part.  God does many things in man's salvation; man just does one.  And grace is poles apart from the heresy that you get saved by agreeing to obey a boss.

Edited February 23, 2014 by EnochBethany

[other one]

Matt 7:21-23

21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord ,' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. 22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord , did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'  

NASB

 

 

Luke 6:46-49

46 "And why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord ,' and do not do what I say? 47 "Everyone who comes to Me, and hears My words, and acts upon them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation upon the rock; and when a flood rose, the torrent burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built. 49 "But the one who has heard, and has not acted accordingly, is like a man who built a house upon the ground without any foundation; and the torrent burst against it and immediately it collapsed, and the ruin of that house was great."

NASB

 

you can call it what ever you want, but if you do not do the things that Jesus told us to do......   you will not be accepted.

[EnochBethany]

 

I just came upon a site trying to attack a man of God because he preaches Lordship Salvation:

 

LORDSHIP SALVATION is the false doctrine that a sinner MUST be willing to stop living a sinful lifestyle or to give up the sinful world to be saved.  In sharp contrast, the Bible, God's Word, teaches that a sinner's faith in Christ alone is sufficient for salvation.  Salvation is receiving, not giving.  Eternal life is a gift.

 

I could post the site link but I don't know if it'll do any good.  If people want it then I will.  Clearly this person hsa not read through the four gospels enough.  What do people expect the gospel to be???  Except:  Repent!  For the Kingdom of God is at hand!  If that isn't God declaring His Lordship and demanding we submit to it in order to be saved, then what else is it?  Why would we not accept that the Lord is God if we truly believe in Him?

 

Let me try to re-clarify this.

 

There is a battle between extremes, and I believe they both miss the boat.

 

One side says: "By grace you are saved through faith . . . not of works" as if Jesus died just for us to get into Heaven, not to save us from Sin, and as if God doesn't care about us doing things that hurt others, hurt ourselves, and poke Him in the eye.

 

The other side says, "Faith without works is dead" as if following strict rules and regulations and beating your body into submission will increase faith, that while Jesus paved the way, salvation is still up to us and our effort.

 

Neither of these are the Gospel.

 

It may be that the "man of God" posted in the OP was arguing the first extreme, or maybe he was just speaking against the second extreme (but not necessarily advocating the first extreme).

 

 

What is the better focus? Perhaps this:

 

 14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died ; 15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf. 16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh ; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. 17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature ; the old things passed away ; behold, new things have come. 18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (2 Cor. 5)

 

 

If you've encountered the love of Christ, your desires and attitude will change - not because you tried, but because His love is just that powerful. When you are consumed by His love, you are not going to want to do those things which grieve His heart, whether deed or attitude.

 

And that's why both extremes miss the boat.

 

The first extreme bypasses reconciliation. We are the ones who offended God. While the offendee needs to extend forgiveness, which God freely does, the offender needs to offer remorse and confession of the offense. They are like the child who begs the parent for escape from the punishment without acknowledgment nor remorse for their deed. Is that what grace is about?

 

The second extreme bypasses that in Christ we are new creatures and not to be recognized according to the flesh. Righteousness comes from His new nature in us, not our effort to make ourselves righteous. We are controlled by His love, not by rules and regulations.

 

You came by a favorite passage of mine from 2 Cor 5:

 

"16 Wherefore we henceforth know no man after the flesh: even though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now we know him so no more."

 

It is not just Christians who are not to be known after the flesh; it is all men.  We are not do know men after the flesh.  I take that in context to mean that we are not to know them as the stinking Adamic sinners that they are.  Indeed, their whole being is flesh (Adamic human nature).  But we know them as persons for whom Christ died & for whom a marvelous new nature has been provided.  We urge them to be reconciled, thoroughly changed, thoroughly other-ized. καταλλάγητε.

κατ(α) = thoroughly

αλλ- = other

άγητε = be ye -ized.

[EnochBethany]

 

Matt 7:21-23

21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord ,' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. 22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord , did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'  

NASB

 

 

Luke 6:46-49

46 "And why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord ,' and do not do what I say? 47 "Everyone who comes to Me, and hears My words, and acts upon them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation upon the rock; and when a flood rose, the torrent burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built. 49 "But the one who has heard, and has not acted accordingly, is like a man who built a house upon the ground without any foundation; and the torrent burst against it and immediately it collapsed, and the ruin of that house was great."

NASB

 

you can call it what ever you want, but if you do not do the things that Jesus told us to do......   you will not be accepted.

 

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord ,' will enter the kingdom of heaven"

This has nothing to do with calling on the name of the Lord for salvation in this life.  This is about judgment day when the person on trial in the future says, "Lord, Lord" after death at judgment.

 

Of course saying to the Lord Jesus, "Lord, Lord" is not the plan of salvation at any time.  The gospel is that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

By grace you have been saved through faith, & that not of yourselves, not of works lest anyone should boast.  Works do not save. Works condemn.  If you would act upon the Words of the Lord, you must throw out works (a foundation of sand) & trust wholly in the Lord Jesus to save you from your wretched sinful-works condition.

 

Salvation is primarily a transformation, a miracle of God changing the nature from sinner to child of God right now.  Along with the transformation comes eternal life.  Salvation is not something bestowed on a person after some judgment.  If  you want your house to collapse, build it on the pride of your works.

[other one]

 

  The gospel is that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

should not perish, but not definitely will not perish......   because there is more to it than just the simple English definition of that word believe.

 

Later translations do use the word shall not instead of should not and their is a world of difference in that phrase.....  and it can give one a false sense of security when that security is not a reality because some refuse to do the will of the Father in their daily lives.    John 3:16 is a beginning....   but only a beginning.

[EnochBethany]

 

 

  The gospel is that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

should not perish, but not definitely will not perish......   because there is more to it than just the simple English definition of that word believe.

 

Later translations do use the word shall not instead of should not and their is a world of difference in that phrase.....  and it can give one a false sense of security when that security is not a reality because some refuse to do the will of the Father in their daily lives.    John 3:16 is a beginning....   but only a beginning.

 

Should is quite clear & correct.  Christ's death is that you should not perish.  But you can do so if you insist.  You must believe in the Son to have eternal life.  I suggest that you read Ps 119 on this subject.  By grace  you have been saved through faith . . . not of works !  It all fits together beautifully.

[OldSchool2]

 

 

Hi Old School - you need to balance this out with the other things I posted in this thread. ( and )

 

But can a person be saved without confessing Jesus as Lord? (Rom. 10:9,10)

Are you equating the terms and conditions of so-called Lordship Salvation with a confession of faith?

If so, then is becoming a disciple now a prerequisite for salvation?

 

 

Old School - What do you do with the bolded parts of Romans 10:9,10?

 

9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved ; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

 

 

 

 

If I must make Christ Lord of my life in order to be saved, then I'm in a Catch 22: I must make Christ Lord to be saved, but I must be saved in order to make Christ Lord. And how is it possible for anyone to make Christ Lord since He already is Lord regardless of what anyone believes to the contrary?

Further, no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:3).

 

Are you saying that an unsaved person can even come to Jesus without the Holy Spirit?

 

If He can convict their hearts to bring them to Jesus to begin with, why can't He likewise stir in their hearts to confess their sinful state and give their lives to Jesus as their Lord as well as their Savior?

 

 

 

 

Paul asked the Galatians (3:2) how they received that Spirit: by obeying the works of law, or hearing and believing the Gospel?

 

Lordship Salvation is based on works described by the acronym of COP: Commitment, Obedience and Perseverance. IMO, that's salvation by works, and anyone who works for their salvation will never know if they have been committed, obedient  or perseverant enough.

The Wycliffe Bible Dictionary states what Lordship Salvation advocates just don't seem to grasp: "While transformation of life is not the ground for salvation, it is the evidence of salvation."

 

I do not perceive anyone here to be advocating what you are expressing here.

 

Can you sign a lease with a person you do not acknowledge as your landlord to whom you must be submitted to?

Can a woman marry a man and not acknowledge him as her husband even during the marriage vows?

Can a person vow citizenship to a new country without confessing submission to the government of the country?

Can a child be adopted and not regard the adopting person of couple as their parent(s)?

 

I do not perceive the others here advocating that one has to "clean up to take a bath", cease from any sin, have a changed attitude, etc. to come to salvation.

 

But to ask Jesus to save you without following Him is like letting Him cut your chains but then remaining in the prison cell rather than following Him out of it.

 

See the difference?

 

Do you see the difference between salvation and sanctification?

To require anyone seeking salvation to already be a committed, obedient and persevering disciple of Jesus is to confuse the act of salvation with sanctification, a process that takes a lifetime, and then some.

And if you "google" Lordship Salvation and COP you can see for yourself what this doctrine actually advocates.

[nebula]

Do you see the difference between salvation and sanctification?

To require anyone seeking salvation to already be a committed, obedient and persevering disciple of Jesus is to confuse the act of salvation with sanctification, a process that takes a lifetime, and then some.

And if you "google" Lordship Salvation and COP you can see for yourself what this doctrine actually advocates.

Old School, if a woman marries a man but does not covenant to make this man "her lawfully wedded husband", what kind of marriage is it? If the woman wants the man's benefits but does not want to give the man her benefits as his wife, is she truly marrying him?

Whether the others are agreeing or disagreeing with the Google resources, I cannot say. But what I am reading from the others are not what you are saying.

A huge problem we have with Christianity today is people wanting Christianity for the benefits but still be their own god.

 

Yes, sanctification is a process, but with salvation what do you believe Jesus is saving us from?

[*Zion*]

John 14:15

If ye love me, keep my commandments.

[other one]

 

 

 

  The gospel is that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

should not perish, but not definitely will not perish......   because there is more to it than just the simple English definition of that word believe.

 

Later translations do use the word shall not instead of should not and their is a world of difference in that phrase.....  and it can give one a false sense of security when that security is not a reality because some refuse to do the will of the Father in their daily lives.    John 3:16 is a beginning....   but only a beginning.

 

Should is quite clear & correct.  Christ's death is that you should not perish.  But you can do so if you insist.  You must believe in the Son to have eternal life.  I suggest that you read Ps 119 on this subject.  By grace  you have been saved through faith . . . not of works !  It all fits together beautifully.

 

..... and I would suggest you read Matthew 7:21+