Proof of GOD, (without attacking Old Earth or evolution)

[Tolken]

Sheniy - I just think it's ironic that we get scolded for twisting and manipulating Genesis to fit our theology, but with Hebrews 11:1 it's allowed.

 

Human nature perhaps, we only want to see that which confirms our preconceived opinions. I won't say that there weren't times when I was guilty of the same..........

Edited March 22, 2014 by Tolken

[Sheniy]

Sheniy - I just think it's ironic that we get scolded for twisting and manipulating Genesis to fit our theology, but with Hebrews 11:1 it's allowed.

 

Human nature perhaps, we only want to see that which confirms our preconceived opinions. I won't say that there weren't times when I was guilty of the same..........

 

True.  I've let go of a few pet doctrines, myself.

[Enoch2021]

Instead of typing 4 different replies that nobody (apparently) will understand and attempt to assail the walls of Obtuseness, Baseless Unsupported Assertions, Equivocations, and StrawMen....I wish to summarize and conclude.

 

 

IMHO, this subject and it's conclusions are so obvious and intuitive I'm actually very surprised it went past 2 or 3 posts.  But alas....on and on it goes.

 

Conclusions:

 

If you feel your replies have been well thought out, legitimate, Truthfully and Honestly portrayed then you have no worries.  The Lord looks @ the heart with particular attention to intent.

 

If on the other hand, this has been an exercise in purposeful deliberate obstruction of said Truth.....of which only you and HE know; well, That's another whole can of worms.

 

Maybe a time for repose and some Introspection,....of which, we all need from time to time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[LookingForAnswers]

IMHO, this subject and it's conclusions are so obvious and intuitive I'm actually very surprised it went past 2 or 3 posts.  But alas....on and on it goes.

 

On this we agree, I am actually very surprised you cannot grasp it

[Guest]

.... (John 20:29) "Jesus saith unto him,  Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."

 

Jesus puts it to rest for us all...blessed are they that have not seen and yet have believed.  Who are those who have not seen...those who have believed without proof.  Could not be more clear.  Those that require proof are missing the boat

 

 

Hope

 

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1

 

And Evidence,

 

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. 1 Corinthians 12:3

 

For Jesus Is Indeed

 

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. Genesis 1:1-3

 

The LORD

 

And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath. Luke 6:5

 

Of The Sabbath

 

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

 

Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

 

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. Exodus 20:8-11

 

Too

 

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: Ephesians 3:2

 

~

 

I've Never Yet Found Old Earth Or Any Derivative Of The Evolutionary Mythos

 

Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding? Isaiah 29:16

 

Explicitly Documented Anywhere In The Holy Book

 

Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

 

For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

 

And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Hebrews 4:1-6

 

Quite The Contrary

 

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Revelation 4:11

 

~

 

Believe

 

He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

 

He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

 

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

 

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1:10-14

 

And Be Blessed Beloved

 

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

 

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

 

Love, Your Brother Joe

[Enoch2021]

 

IMHO, this subject and it's conclusions are so obvious and intuitive I'm actually very surprised it went past 2 or 3 posts.  But alas....on and on it goes.

 

On this we agree, I am actually very surprised you cannot grasp it

 

 

 

========================================================================

 

 

Since you have to play the playground game.  Lets really drive the point home

 

 

Who are those who have not seen...those who have believed without proof.  Could not be more clear.  Those that require proof are missing the boat

 

 

You're whole position is based on Equivocating the Term "Proof"...... most glaring is the frivolous association with "SEEN" as demonstrated by this statement.....

 

Who are those who have not seen...those who have believed without proof.

 

Even after I showed you a Direct Contradiction with your position and The WORD......Peter Walking on the Water.  Then you poo poo'ed "Specific Complexity" and my other Forensic Evidences and Analogies (BMW/Sea Water et al).

 

OK.....

 

Please define Proof/Evidence......?

 

Be back in a while

[LookingForAnswers]

 

 

 

Even after I showed you a Direct Contradiction with your position and The WORD......Peter Walking on the Water.  Then you poo poo'ed "Specific Complexity" and my other Forensic Evidences and Analogies (BMW/Sea Water et al).

 

 

 

I did not poo poo anything, I clarifed what Specific Complexity is.  It is an argument...a statement or series of statements for or against something.  An argument is not proof, it can never be proof and it is what is used in the lack of actual proof.  To bring forth Specific Complexity as proof of something is to show a total lack of understanding of the issue at hand.

 

I think Joe above helped the problem along with a verse that he gave...

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. 1 Corinthians 12:3

 

See, proof cannot lead you to the fact that Jesus is Lord (God).  This is why Peter faltered even with overwhelming evidence, he tried to rely on his own understanding instead of trusting God.  This was the mistake that Thomas made, he wanted proof.  What did Jesus say about those demanding proof?  

 

 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. 

 

 

 

Please define Proof/Evidence......?

 

 

I have a better idea, since it is you standing alone with your view of faith and proof, why not give us your definitions of proof and evidence. 

[Enoch2021]

 

 

============================================================

 

 

I clarifed what Specific Complexity is.  It is an argument...a statement or series of statements for or against something.  An argument is not proof, it can never be proof and it is what is used in the lack of actual proof.  To bring forth Specific Complexity as proof of something is to show a total lack of understanding of the issue at hand.

 

I have already told you countless times that you don't look @ things in a Vacuum-------do you understand what that means?  It means you don't look @ just One Item @ disregarding any and all others.  And I've already illustrated the Use of "Specific Complexity" COMBINED with "Prophecy" (By proxy of 1LOT) which seals the deal.

 

 

I think Joe above helped the problem along with a verse that he gave...

 

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. 1 Corinthians 12:3

 

Great Verse but somewhat irrelevant to our specific point unless you are adding the Holy Spirit to your "there is no proof/evidence" thus the need for Faith Mantra??

 

However, having said that, without the Holy Spirit it's somewhat apparent that you will not be able to see the Evidences. 

 

However again....see Major Problem below

 

 

See, proof cannot lead you to the fact that Jesus is Lord (God).  This is why Peter faltered even with overwhelming evidence, he tried to rely on his own understanding instead of trusting God.

 

Ahh, I see. Now you're trying to Muddy the Waters and change the Subject sir.

 

This is your Whole Position and point from Message #142:  "Faith is a belief that is not based on proof, thus the "unseen"."

 

Peter's "Walking on Water" was my direct refutation of this statement                     :rolleyes:  

 

Where Peter did have FAITH Based on the SEEN (He did Walk on the Water) but then Faltered in the Face of ABSOLUTE AAA+ Proof.  Which then confirmed my position that even with 100% Proof you still need Faith.  See it?

 

It's (The Boded Green) also a Direct Contradiction to the meaning of Faith in Hebrew 1:11.....  with the Phrase: Faith is the "Substance"

 

 

Moreover,

 

You also have a MAJOR PROBLEM with your thesis, right here.....

 

(Romans 1:20) "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

 

That sound you're hearing is your equivocation parade with "Proof" and "Seen" circling the drain @ Mach Speed.

 

GOD is indicting those based on the INVISIBLE THINGS.....PROOFS.......That are SEEN!  And they are....WITHOUT EXCUSE!! The same Idea/Concept I've been Telling and Illustrating to You this Entire Thread....The Forensics ("Specific Complexity", Prophecy, 1LOT, et al)

 

 

Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

 

You're equivocating proof with "SEEN" again

 

 

I have a better idea, since it is you standing alone with your view of faith and proof, why not give us your definitions of proof and evidence.

 

Why lol, You're the one on this entire thread equivocating the terms..... that's why I asked you?   And since you already know this...you shift the Burden onto me     I have No Idea what you think it means based on the Equivocation Parade you've proffered this entire thread, save for one.....

 

You have one idea here that you mentioned.....

 

"Who are those who have not seen...those who have believed without proof.  Could not be more clear."  "Faith is a belief that is not based on proof, thus the "unseen"."

 

So you're basically saying, by proxy of the above statements.....Seeing is Proof/Evidence....and Demonstrated Faith is the absence of Proof.  Of which I already told you a number of times and illustrated that you can have Proof without SEEING.

 

To have FAITH in anything it has to have a Basis in SUBSTANCE sir......if not, you could have FAITH in Anything: (3 Toed Gnomes, evolution, Alice in Wonderland et al)

 

See also Major Problem.....

 

(Romans 1:20) "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

[LookingForAnswers]

Great Verse but somewhat irrelevant to our specific point unless you are adding the Holy Spirit to your "there is no proof/evidence" thus the need for Faith Mantra??

 

However, having said that, without the Holy Spirit it's somewhat apparent that you will not be able to see the Evidences.

 

 

The point is that if proof were enough then we would not need the Holy Spirit.  The Holy Spirit picks up where we could not go ourselves, we could not come to call Jesus "Lord" no matter how much "proof" there is because there would never be enough, that is why we have to have FAITH 

Instead of relying on our own understanding, which is why proof comes down to we have to rely on God.   I realize this is a problem for you, that you want to be able to figure it all out for yourself, but you cant. 

 

Peter's "Walking on Water" was my direct refutation of this statement               

 

Where Peter did have FAITH Based on the SEEN (He did Walk on the Water) but then Faltered in the Face of ABSOLUTE AAA+ Proof.  Which then confirmed my position that even with 100% Proof you still need Faith.  See it?

 

 

Peter based his faith on what he could see, that is where he went wrong.  That is why he sunk and why he faltered later, when what he thought he saw changed, his faith did also.  When Peter saw the wind instead of Jesus, he sunk.  This is what happens when our faith is tied to what we can prove, we sink.  That again is why God says we are saved by FAITH, not by proof.  

 

You're equivocating proof with "SEEN" again

 

 

This is because I understand context.  You complain that I view your arguments in a vacuum and then you turn around and read the Bible the same way.  In the context of the passage, Thomas would not believe without proof, the is what Jesus is addressing when He made His comment.  The Bible was never meant to be read as 31,000+ separate verses, and doing so is how people come up with such off the wall theology.   You have done this on a number of occasions, from this verses to the serpent in the garden to God creating moral evil.    You cherry pick verses from here and there to support your views instead of building your views based off what is written as a whole.  This is called proof texting and it is not a good way to read your bible.

 

Why lol, You're the one on this entire thread equivocating the terms..... that's why I asked you?   And since you already know this...you shift the Burden onto me     I have No Idea what you think it means based on the Equivocation Parade you've proffered this entire thread, save for one.....

 

 

So, yet again you refuse to do what you are demanding of others.  You demand that I offer something but are unwilling to do so yourself.  There is a word for that.

 

 

(Romans 1:20) "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

 

 

Interesting twist to the discussion, will have to read the passage and get back to you, but time for pizza and beer right now!

[gray wolf]

I fail to see equivocation anywhere.