What meaneth these things?

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

 

You, Shiloh, have accused me of stringing together scripture. In fact said I am quite good at it. Thank you for the compliment (although you did not intend it that way). I listen to the Tutor of Scripture (who gets all the credit). You all can too.

 

You are listening to "A" spirit, I will grant you that.   The fact that you have to string verses together to support your false claims about Israel demonstrates the error present in your theology.

 

 

Okay. By your own admission I am using scripture to support what I say.

 

 

No, there is a difference between making a biblical argument and using Scripture to make that case and simply stringing a bunch of verses together as if they are all speaking to the same issues.   You are not making a biblical cases.  Rather you are molding the Bible around what you want to believe and making the Bible fit your views.  Anyone can do that.  Anyonne string verses together to make the Bible appear to say what they want it to say.

 

 

Show me in scripture where I am wrong.

 

 

Look at some of the passages you use:   ;Romans 2:28-29 is part of a discussion where Paul is explaining what it means to be truly Jewish issues.  In Romans 2 ,Paul distingushes between Jews whose boast is in the the law and their Jewish ethnic pedigree, verses the Jew who lives with a heart that has been circumcises and lilve for the Lord from a pure inward motive.  Paul is not saying that Christian Gentiles are spiritual Jews.  That silly notion doesn't even fit the context.   That is why your notion of "Spiritual Jews"  isn't biblical.  It is a contrived and made up concept that never entered Paul's mind.

 

The "Israel of God" in Galatians six is talking about Jewish believers.  That is confirmed by Romans 9 where Paul says that not everyone who is of Israel is Israel. Paul,, in the book of Galatians, is speaking against those who were telling Gentiles that they needed to convert to the Jewish religion of that day in order to enter the Kingdom of God.  They were being told they had to become Israelites.   Paul made the distinction between the Judaizers who believed they were Israelites, and the true Israel of God made up of Jewish believers.

 

To argue that "Israel of God" includes Jewish believers is somelthing you are penciling and reading into the text of Galatians six.  It isn't there.

 

The Bible NEVER spiritualizes "Israel"  to include Gentile beleivers.  NEVER.    The Bible keeps Israel and the Church radically separate and there is no other way to look at it, biblically. 

[Shar]

I think the term “spiritual Jew”, for lack of a better term, is a term that is used to describe some references to what happens to the Gentile when he accepts Jesus as their Savior.  There are a number of great books, like God-Fearers that address this issue more thoroughly.

 

Je31:31-32 G-d made a covenant with Israel and not the nations.  If the nations were going to find a place at G-d’s table it would have to be in context with the family of Israel.  Thus the coming of the Jewish Messiah, and why he would be a light of revelation to the Gentiles Lk2:25-32.  Jesus even revealed this plan to his disciples Mt 28:19-20.  He told them to deliver the message to the nations and to immerse them according to Jewish practice of Tevilah.  Even in Rabbic law, Gentiles did not receive immersion, except through conversion.  A Gentile immersed in the Messiah attains a different status from the Gentile outside of Messiah.

 

Acts 15 – Gentiles have full access to G-d and his covenants through the Jewish Messiah without the need of a formal conversion.  In Col.2:11-12, Paul describes the technical process of conversion (circumcision and immersion) in spiritual terms.  “..in him you were all circumcised …not a circumcision done by hands of men but the circumcision done by Christ.  In Christ, the Gentile becomes inwardly circumcised (i.e. inwardly Jewish), but in no way makes the Gentile believers Jewish in the flesh.  Gentile believers were never referred to as Jews.

 

In Judaism a formal convert is call ben Abraham (son of Abraham) or bat Abraham (daughter of Abraham).  This is the term Paul uses to describe Gentile believers.  Gal. 3:7-“Now understand this, those who believe are children of Abraham”. 

 

Now the reference of “Sons of Abraham”, in Acts 13 Paul addressed three congregants who attended the synagogue on the Sabbath.  They were the brothers, children of Abraham and the G-d-Fearing Gentiles.  The brothers were Jews, children of Abraham were the Gentile Proselytes and the G-d Fearing Gentiles who were attracted to Judaism and worshipped in the synagogues, but chose not to undergo formal conversion.

 

The Proselyte were non-Jews, but were no longer regarded as Gentile, but through the ritual of circumcision and immersion took on the religious and legal status of Israel and the Jewish community referred to them as “sons and daughters of Abraham”.

 

Hence the parallel between the Proselyte and the Gentile in Christ who becomes inwardly circumcised, immersed by commandment and now called sons and daughters of Abraham.  The early believers were identified with the Jewish faith and kept the Sabbath, since it was a sect of Judaism, Acts 19:9, 23 & 22:4 & 24:5, 14, 22.  The church only became separate when it made the decision to split from this sect of Judaism as a result of a horrendous anti-Semitic history.

[Guest shiloh357]

I think the term “spiritual Jew”, for lack of a better term, is a term that is used to describe some references to what happens to the Gentile when he accepts Jesus as their Savior.  There are a number of great books, like God-Fearers that address this issue more thoroughly.

 

I understand that, but that is NOT what happens to a Gentiles when they get saved and the Bible never claims that.   The Bible says that Gentiles become the spiritual seed of Abraham and that is NOT claiming that they become spiritual Jews.   "Jew" is a physical, ethnic term in the Bible and is ONLY used that way.  It is NEVER used connection with Gnetile believers, EVER.   The Jews are reckoned through Jacob, not through Abraham.   Being the seed of Abraham doesn't make one a "Jew."   Abraham had other children and they are not considered part of the Jewish people, spiritually or otherwise.

Je31:31-32 G-d made a covenant with Israel and not the nations.  If the nations were going to find a place at G-d’s table it would have to be in context with the family of Israel.  Thus the coming of the Jewish Messiah, and why he would be a light of revelation to the Gentiles Lk2:25-32.  Jesus even revealed this plan to his disciples Mt 28:19-20.  He told them to deliver the message to the nations and to immerse them according to Jewish practice of Tevilah.  Even in Rabbic law, Gentiles did not receive immersion, except through conversion.  A Gentile immersed in the Messiah attains a different status from the Gentile outside of Messiah.

 

In Judaism a formal convert is call ben Abraham (son of Abraham) or bat Abraham (daughter of Abraham).  This is the term Paul uses to describe Gentile believers.  Gal. 3:7-“Now understand this, those who believe are children of Abraham”. 

 

You are confusing conversion to Judaism with what it means to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior.   Gentiles don't become a part of Israel through the Messiah.  They are grafted into the olive tree and have equal participation in the benefits of the New Covenant with believing Israelites, but Gentiles remain Gentiles.  They don't become Israelites.  They are still wild olive branches.  They are not spiritual Jews any other nonsensical, unbiblical concept. 

 

Being a son or daughter of Abraham by faith doesn't make one a spiritual Jew.  The Bible knows of no such concept.  I can guarantee you one thing.  Gentiles that so enamoured with wanting to be called a Jew today, will quickly drop that claim if being a Jew ever becomes illegal, again.  I am so sick of Christian Gentiles who want to  play "Jew" and pretend they are something they are not. 

[Qnts2]

 

I think the term “spiritual Jew”, for lack of a better term, is a term that is used to describe some references to what happens to the Gentile when he accepts Jesus as their Savior.  There are a number of great books, like God-Fearers that address this issue more thoroughly.

 

I understand that, but that is NOT what happens to a Gentiles when they get saved and the Bible never claims that.   The Bible says that Gentiles become the spiritual seed of Abraham and that is NOT claiming that they become spiritual Jews.   "Jew" is a physical, ethnic term in the Bible and is ONLY used that way.  It is NEVER used connection with Gnetile believers, EVER.   The Jews are reckoned through Jacob, not through Abraham.   Being the seed of Abraham doesn't make one a "Jew."   Abraham had other children and they are not considered part of the Jewish people, spiritually or otherwise.

Je31:31-32 G-d made a covenant with Israel and not the nations.  If the nations were going to find a place at G-d’s table it would have to be in context with the family of Israel.  Thus the coming of the Jewish Messiah, and why he would be a light of revelation to the Gentiles Lk2:25-32.  Jesus even revealed this plan to his disciples Mt 28:19-20.  He told them to deliver the message to the nations and to immerse them according to Jewish practice of Tevilah.  Even in Rabbic law, Gentiles did not receive immersion, except through conversion.  A Gentile immersed in the Messiah attains a different status from the Gentile outside of Messiah.

 

In Judaism a formal convert is call ben Abraham (son of Abraham) or bat Abraham (daughter of Abraham).  This is the term Paul uses to describe Gentile believers.  Gal. 3:7-“Now understand this, those who believe are children of Abraham”. 

 

You are confusing conversion to Judaism with what it means to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior.   Gentiles don't become a part of Israel through the Messiah.  They are grafted into the olive tree and have equal participation in the benefits of the New Covenant with believing Israelites, but Gentiles remain Gentiles.  They don't become Israelites.  They are still wild olive branches.  They are not spiritual Jews any other nonsensical, unbiblical concept. 

 

Being a son or daughter of Abraham by faith doesn't make one a spiritual Jew.  The Bible knows of no such concept.  I can guarantee you one thing.  Gentiles that so enamoured with wanting to be called a Jew today, will quickly drop that claim if being a Jew ever becomes illegal, again.  I am so sick of Christian Gentiles who want to  play "Jew" and pretend they are something they are not. 

 

 

I agree, I am very tired of Gentiles playing Jew, or as Judaism calls it 'Jewish wannabes'. It isn't biblical, and it does damage to the Jewish people. It distorts scripture and works against the prophesies which speak of Gentiles (not converts or spiritual Jews) coming to the Messiah as Gentiles and remaining as Gentiles.

 

I'll just ask people to think about this. If a Gentile who is proclaiming Jesus is the Messiah that Jewish people need too, what message does it send to the Jewish people when the Gentiles who have the Messiah, also want to claim to be Jewish. Is the Messiah insufficient and being Jewish is better? That is one message the Jewish people see. If you are a Gentile who believes Jesus is the Messiah, Lord and Savior, and that Gentile claims to a Jewish, isn't being Jewish then better since Gentiles who believe in Jesus are not satisfied with being a Gentile who believes in Jesus?

 

The other message is even scarier. Most of the anti-semites claim that they are Jewish/Israel, and have a hatred for actual Jewish people. A rabid for of jealousy. Which brings us to another message yet. If the Church is to make Jewish people jealous, why is it that so many Gentiles seem jealous of the Jewish people, wanting to call themselves Jews? At the same time many declare how disgustingly horrid Jewish people are.      

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Everyone...

               Its funny that I was reading Romans this morning & as I was reading both Shiloh & Qnts posts it just reminded me that Paul was very explicit in saying how although the Gentile has been grafted in,from the wild olive tree.....that they are still yet a branch & NOT THE ROOT........that just is another confirmation of what you both have said......A Gentile is not a Jew when He is adopted as a child of God..........Praise the Lord

                                                                                                                                                With love-in Christ,Kwik

[Shar]

 

 

I think the term “spiritual Jew”, for lack of a better term, is a term that is used to describe some references to what happens to the Gentile when he accepts Jesus as their Savior.  There are a number of great books, like God-Fearers that address this issue more thoroughly.

 

I understand that, but that is NOT what happens to a Gentiles when they get saved and the Bible never claims that.   The Bible says that Gentiles become the spiritual seed of Abraham and that is NOT claiming that they become spiritual Jews.   "Jew" is a physical, ethnic term in the Bible and is ONLY used that way.  It is NEVER used connection with Gnetile believers, EVER.   The Jews are reckoned through Jacob, not through Abraham.   Being the seed of Abraham doesn't make one a "Jew."   Abraham had other children and they are not considered part of the Jewish people, spiritually or otherwise.

Je31:31-32 G-d made a covenant with Israel and not the nations.  If the nations were going to find a place at G-d’s table it would have to be in context with the family of Israel.  Thus the coming of the Jewish Messiah, and why he would be a light of revelation to the Gentiles Lk2:25-32.  Jesus even revealed this plan to his disciples Mt 28:19-20.  He told them to deliver the message to the nations and to immerse them according to Jewish practice of Tevilah.  Even in Rabbic law, Gentiles did not receive immersion, except through conversion.  A Gentile immersed in the Messiah attains a different status from the Gentile outside of Messiah.

 

In Judaism a formal convert is call ben Abraham (son of Abraham) or bat Abraham (daughter of Abraham).  This is the term Paul uses to describe Gentile believers.  Gal. 3:7-“Now understand this, those who believe are children of Abraham”. 

 

You are confusing conversion to Judaism with what it means to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior.   Gentiles don't become a part of Israel through the Messiah.  They are grafted into the olive tree and have equal participation in the benefits of the New Covenant with believing Israelites, but Gentiles remain Gentiles.  They don't become Israelites.  They are still wild olive branches.  They are not spiritual Jews any other nonsensical, unbiblical concept. 

 

Being a son or daughter of Abraham by faith doesn't make one a spiritual Jew.  The Bible knows of no such concept.  I can guarantee you one thing.  Gentiles that so enamoured with wanting to be called a Jew today, will quickly drop that claim if being a Jew ever becomes illegal, again.  I am so sick of Christian Gentiles who want to  play "Jew" and pretend they are something they are not. 

 

 

I agree, I am very tired of Gentiles playing Jew, or as Judaism calls it 'Jewish wannabes'. It isn't biblical, and it does damage to the Jewish people. It distorts scripture and works against the prophesies which speak of Gentiles (not converts or spiritual Jews) coming to the Messiah as Gentiles and remaining as Gentiles.

 

I'll just ask people to think about this. If a Gentile who is proclaiming Jesus is the Messiah that Jewish people need too, what message does it send to the Jewish people when the Gentiles who have the Messiah, also want to claim to be Jewish. Is the Messiah insufficient and being Jewish is better? That is one message the Jewish people see. If you are a Gentile who believes Jesus is the Messiah, Lord and Savior, and that Gentile claims to a Jewish, isn't being Jewish then better since Gentiles who believe in Jesus are not satisfied with being a Gentile who believes in Jesus?

 

The other message is even scarier. Most of the anti-semites claim that they are Jewish/Israel, and have a hatred for actual Jewish people. A rabid for of jealousy. Which brings us to another message yet. If the Church is to make Jewish people jealous, why is it that so many Gentiles seem jealous of the Jewish people, wanting to call themselves Jews? At the same time many declare how disgustingly horrid Jewish people are.      

 

I think I made it very clear that Gentiles are not Jews when they believe in Messiah.  They are more akin to a proselyte in those days by the spiritual circumcision and baptism and being called sons of Abraham.  It is a parallel.  I was very specific that Gentiles do not become Jews.  I agree this harms the Jewish people and can take away their unique identity.  What I was saying that for those who use the term "Spiritual Jew" that they may be using it for a lack of a better term from the narratives of Paul.  The apostles, Paul and the early church referred to Gentiles who were in Christ as Gentiles.  They did not distinguish them otherwise.  The only way the Gentiles can make the Jews jealous is to have a vital relationship with Him and keep his commandments.  Remember, Paul wrote from Rabbinic terms and we need to be familiar with those terms to understand the parallel he is making.  Nowhere does it say we become Jews.  I think these responses have gone way out into an avenue that was not being expressed.

[Qnts2]

 

 

 

I think the term “spiritual Jew”, for lack of a better term, is a term that is used to describe some references to what happens to the Gentile when he accepts Jesus as their Savior.  There are a number of great books, like God-Fearers that address this issue more thoroughly.

 

I understand that, but that is NOT what happens to a Gentiles when they get saved and the Bible never claims that.   The Bible says that Gentiles become the spiritual seed of Abraham and that is NOT claiming that they become spiritual Jews.   "Jew" is a physical, ethnic term in the Bible and is ONLY used that way.  It is NEVER used connection with Gnetile believers, EVER.   The Jews are reckoned through Jacob, not through Abraham.   Being the seed of Abraham doesn't make one a "Jew."   Abraham had other children and they are not considered part of the Jewish people, spiritually or otherwise.

Je31:31-32 G-d made a covenant with Israel and not the nations.  If the nations were going to find a place at G-d’s table it would have to be in context with the family of Israel.  Thus the coming of the Jewish Messiah, and why he would be a light of revelation to the Gentiles Lk2:25-32.  Jesus even revealed this plan to his disciples Mt 28:19-20.  He told them to deliver the message to the nations and to immerse them according to Jewish practice of Tevilah.  Even in Rabbic law, Gentiles did not receive immersion, except through conversion.  A Gentile immersed in the Messiah attains a different status from the Gentile outside of Messiah.

 

In Judaism a formal convert is call ben Abraham (son of Abraham) or bat Abraham (daughter of Abraham).  This is the term Paul uses to describe Gentile believers.  Gal. 3:7-“Now understand this, those who believe are children of Abraham”. 

 

You are confusing conversion to Judaism with what it means to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior.   Gentiles don't become a part of Israel through the Messiah.  They are grafted into the olive tree and have equal participation in the benefits of the New Covenant with believing Israelites, but Gentiles remain Gentiles.  They don't become Israelites.  They are still wild olive branches.  They are not spiritual Jews any other nonsensical, unbiblical concept. 

 

Being a son or daughter of Abraham by faith doesn't make one a spiritual Jew.  The Bible knows of no such concept.  I can guarantee you one thing.  Gentiles that so enamoured with wanting to be called a Jew today, will quickly drop that claim if being a Jew ever becomes illegal, again.  I am so sick of Christian Gentiles who want to  play "Jew" and pretend they are something they are not. 

 

 

I agree, I am very tired of Gentiles playing Jew, or as Judaism calls it 'Jewish wannabes'. It isn't biblical, and it does damage to the Jewish people. It distorts scripture and works against the prophesies which speak of Gentiles (not converts or spiritual Jews) coming to the Messiah as Gentiles and remaining as Gentiles.

 

I'll just ask people to think about this. If a Gentile who is proclaiming Jesus is the Messiah that Jewish people need too, what message does it send to the Jewish people when the Gentiles who have the Messiah, also want to claim to be Jewish. Is the Messiah insufficient and being Jewish is better? That is one message the Jewish people see. If you are a Gentile who believes Jesus is the Messiah, Lord and Savior, and that Gentile claims to a Jewish, isn't being Jewish then better since Gentiles who believe in Jesus are not satisfied with being a Gentile who believes in Jesus?

 

The other message is even scarier. Most of the anti-semites claim that they are Jewish/Israel, and have a hatred for actual Jewish people. A rabid for of jealousy. Which brings us to another message yet. If the Church is to make Jewish people jealous, why is it that so many Gentiles seem jealous of the Jewish people, wanting to call themselves Jews? At the same time many declare how disgustingly horrid Jewish people are.      

 

I think I made it very clear that Gentiles are not Jews when they believe in Messiah.  They are more akin to a proselyte in those days by the spiritual circumcision and baptism and being called sons of Abraham.  It is a parallel.  I was very specific that Gentiles do not become Jews.  I agree this harms the Jewish people and can take away their unique identity.  What I was saying that for those who use the term "Spiritual Jew" that they may be using it for a lack of a better term from the narratives of Paul.  The apostles, Paul and the early church referred to Gentiles who were in Christ as Gentiles.  They did not distinguish them otherwise.  The only way the Gentiles can make the Jews jealous is to have a vital relationship with Him and keep his commandments.  Remember, Paul wrote from Rabbinic terms and we need to be familiar with those terms to understand the parallel he is making.  Nowhere does it say we become Jews.  I think these responses have gone way out into an avenue that was not being expressed.

 

 

What I was saying in my view is the result of what was expressed. Christians who think they are now Israel, or spiritual Jews, and express this thought, effect the Jewish people. From the worst, which is the appearance or reality of anti-semitism, to the mildest, which is identity confusion or theft. But ultimately I have heard many Jewish people express thoughts on what they call 'wannabe Jews who are really Gentiles'. It is not upheld in scripture, as Shilo said, so when claiming that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah, it corrupts the message of the gospel when Gentiles to say they are spiritual Jews. To you it might be a harmless expression to put a label on the change which occurs, but it is not a harmless expression.

 

 Deut 32:21 ‘They have made Me jealous with what is not God; They have provoked Me to anger with their idols. So I will make them jealous with those who are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation,

 

Deut 32:21 is a prophesy in the OT, to the Jewish people. They had made God angry, and God was saying that He would make them jealous by making a new group of people from diverse peoples (Gentiles). This is a wonderful prophesy which shows that Gentiles will form a new 'nation' of people of God. From a Jewish perspective, this prophesy can explain how Christianity is what God is using. But, the Gentiles who are blessed by being this foolish nation, claiming to be spiritual Jews, blows this prophesy out of the water. What is the response of many Jewish people? 'Yeah, right, if Jews are supposed to be jealous of the Gentiles, why are there so many wannabe Jews among the Gentiles?'. I try explaining Jesus, and some of the Jewish people respond and say, Gentiles who believe on Jesus want to be Jews, so there is no reason for Jews to even consider Jesus.

 

Your intent was probably not to go this far, but this is what I experience weekly and is the direct result of the terms which try to make born again Gentiles into Israel or spiritual Jews even though scripture does not support this. The expression is not harmless.

[Shar]

 

 

 

 

I think the term “spiritual Jew”, for lack of a better term, is a term that is used to describe some references to what happens to the Gentile when he accepts Jesus as their Savior.  There are a number of great books, like God-Fearers that address this issue more thoroughly.

 

I understand that, but that is NOT what happens to a Gentiles when they get saved and the Bible never claims that.   The Bible says that Gentiles become the spiritual seed of Abraham and that is NOT claiming that they become spiritual Jews.   "Jew" is a physical, ethnic term in the Bible and is ONLY used that way.  It is NEVER used connection with Gnetile believers, EVER.   The Jews are reckoned through Jacob, not through Abraham.   Being the seed of Abraham doesn't make one a "Jew."   Abraham had other children and they are not considered part of the Jewish people, spiritually or otherwise.

Je31:31-32 G-d made a covenant with Israel and not the nations.  If the nations were going to find a place at G-d’s table it would have to be in context with the family of Israel.  Thus the coming of the Jewish Messiah, and why he would be a light of revelation to the Gentiles Lk2:25-32.  Jesus even revealed this plan to his disciples Mt 28:19-20.  He told them to deliver the message to the nations and to immerse them according to Jewish practice of Tevilah.  Even in Rabbic law, Gentiles did not receive immersion, except through conversion.  A Gentile immersed in the Messiah attains a different status from the Gentile outside of Messiah.

 

In Judaism a formal convert is call ben Abraham (son of Abraham) or bat Abraham (daughter of Abraham).  This is the term Paul uses to describe Gentile believers.  Gal. 3:7-“Now understand this, those who believe are children of Abraham”. 

 

You are confusing conversion to Judaism with what it means to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior.   Gentiles don't become a part of Israel through the Messiah.  They are grafted into the olive tree and have equal participation in the benefits of the New Covenant with believing Israelites, but Gentiles remain Gentiles.  They don't become Israelites.  They are still wild olive branches.  They are not spiritual Jews any other nonsensical, unbiblical concept. 

 

Being a son or daughter of Abraham by faith doesn't make one a spiritual Jew.  The Bible knows of no such concept.  I can guarantee you one thing.  Gentiles that so enamoured with wanting to be called a Jew today, will quickly drop that claim if being a Jew ever becomes illegal, again.  I am so sick of Christian Gentiles who want to  play "Jew" and pretend they are something they are not. 

 

 

I agree, I am very tired of Gentiles playing Jew, or as Judaism calls it 'Jewish wannabes'. It isn't biblical, and it does damage to the Jewish people. It distorts scripture and works against the prophesies which speak of Gentiles (not converts or spiritual Jews) coming to the Messiah as Gentiles and remaining as Gentiles.

 

I'll just ask people to think about this. If a Gentile who is proclaiming Jesus is the Messiah that Jewish people need too, what message does it send to the Jewish people when the Gentiles who have the Messiah, also want to claim to be Jewish. Is the Messiah insufficient and being Jewish is better? That is one message the Jewish people see. If you are a Gentile who believes Jesus is the Messiah, Lord and Savior, and that Gentile claims to a Jewish, isn't being Jewish then better since Gentiles who believe in Jesus are not satisfied with being a Gentile who believes in Jesus?

 

The other message is even scarier. Most of the anti-semites claim that they are Jewish/Israel, and have a hatred for actual Jewish people. A rabid for of jealousy. Which brings us to another message yet. If the Church is to make Jewish people jealous, why is it that so many Gentiles seem jealous of the Jewish people, wanting to call themselves Jews? At the same time many declare how disgustingly horrid Jewish people are.      

 

I think I made it very clear that Gentiles are not Jews when they believe in Messiah.  They are more akin to a proselyte in those days by the spiritual circumcision and baptism and being called sons of Abraham.  It is a parallel.  I was very specific that Gentiles do not become Jews.  I agree this harms the Jewish people and can take away their unique identity.  What I was saying that for those who use the term "Spiritual Jew" that they may be using it for a lack of a better term from the narratives of Paul.  The apostles, Paul and the early church referred to Gentiles who were in Christ as Gentiles.  They did not distinguish them otherwise.  The only way the Gentiles can make the Jews jealous is to have a vital relationship with Him and keep his commandments.  Remember, Paul wrote from Rabbinic terms and we need to be familiar with those terms to understand the parallel he is making.  Nowhere does it say we become Jews.  I think these responses have gone way out into an avenue that was not being expressed.

 

 

What I was saying in my view is the result of what was expressed. Christians who think they are now Israel, or spiritual Jews, and express this thought, effect the Jewish people. From the worst, which is the appearance or reality of anti-semitism, to the mildest, which is identity confusion or theft. But ultimately I have heard many Jewish people express thoughts on what they call 'wannabe Jews who are really Gentiles'. It is not upheld in scripture, as Shilo said, so when claiming that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah, it corrupts the message of the gospel when Gentiles to say they are spiritual Jews. To you it might be a harmless expression to put a label on the change which occurs, but it is not a harmless expression.

 

I never said they are spiritual Jews.  I said some people use the term for lack of a better term to explain Paul's parallel.  Gentiles are not, nor will they ever be Jews.  That is my viewpoint.  I do not refer to Gentiles as spiritual Jews.  They are Gentiles.  I continually argue with Gentiles who called themselves Jews.  I clearly state "they are not".

 

 Deut 32:21 ‘They have made Me jealous with what is not God; They have provoked Me to anger with their idols. So I will make them jealous with those who are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation,

 

Deut 32:21 is a prophesy in the OT, to the Jewish people. They had made God angry, and God was saying that He would make them jealous by making a new group of people from diverse peoples (Gentiles). This is a wonderful prophesy which shows that Gentiles will form a new 'nation' of people of God. From a Jewish perspective, this prophesy can explain how Christianity is what God is using. But, the Gentiles who are blessed by being this foolish nation, claiming to be spiritual Jews, blows this prophesy out of the water. What is the response of many Jewish people? 'Yeah, right, if Jews are supposed to be jealous of the Gentiles, why are there so many wannabe Jews among the Gentiles?'. I try explaining Jesus, and some of the Jewish people respond and say, Gentiles who believe on Jesus want to be Jews, so there is no reason for Jews to even consider Jesus.

 

I have no experience to this since I never claim myself to be a Jew when I speak to Jews about my faith.  I do believe there are certain sects that do hold themselves out that way and I do not agree with the confusion they are making.

 

Your intent was probably not to go this far, but this is what I experience weekly and is the direct result of the terms which try to make born again Gentiles into Israel or spiritual Jews even though scripture does not support this. The expression is not harmless.

 

My intent was not anything as has been expressed.  Yes, a more careful reading is warranted.  I simply was offering why some people may use that term.  While not being an accurate or clearly appropriate term, they need a term to describe what Paul is referencing when he speaks of the believer's circumcision not made by hands, the baptism, and  now being call "sons of Abraham".  They just don't know how to better term it.

 

Edited March 20, 2014 by Shar

[JohnD]

 

 

 

 

You, Shiloh, have accused me of stringing together scripture. In fact said I am quite good at it. Thank you for the compliment (although you did not intend it that way). I listen to the Tutor of Scripture (who gets all the credit). You all can too.

 

You are listening to "A" spirit, I will grant you that.   The fact that you have to string verses together to support your false claims about Israel demonstrates the error present in your theology.

 

 

Okay. By your own admission I am using scripture to support what I say.

 

 

No, there is a difference between making a biblical argument and using Scripture to make that case and simply stringing a bunch of verses together as if they are all speaking to the same issues.   You are not making a biblical cases.  Rather you are molding the Bible around what you want to believe and making the Bible fit your views.  Anyone can do that.  Anyonne string verses together to make the Bible appear to say what they want it to say.

 

 

Show me in scripture where I am wrong.

 

 

Look at some of the passages you use:   ;Romans 2:28-29 is part of a discussion where Paul is explaining what it means to be truly Jewish issues.  In Romans 2 ,Paul distingushes between Jews whose boast is in the the law and their Jewish ethnic pedigree, verses the Jew who lives with a heart that has been circumcises and lilve for the Lord from a pure inward motive.  Paul is not saying that Christian Gentiles are spiritual Jews.  That silly notion doesn't even fit the context.   That is why your notion of "Spiritual Jews"  isn't biblical.  It is a contrived and made up concept that never entered Paul's mind.

 

The "Israel of God" in Galatians six is talking about Jewish believers.  That is confirmed by Romans 9 where Paul says that not everyone who is of Israel is Israel. Paul,, in the book of Galatians, is speaking against those who were telling Gentiles that they needed to convert to the Jewish religion of that day in order to enter the Kingdom of God.  They were being told they had to become Israelites.   Paul made the distinction between the Judaizers who believed they were Israelites, and the true Israel of God made up of Jewish believers.

 

To argue that "Israel of God" includes Jewish believers is somelthing you are penciling and reading into the text of Galatians six.  It isn't there.

 

The Bible NEVER spiritualizes "Israel"  to include Gentile beleivers.  NEVER.    The Bible keeps Israel and the Church radically separate and there is no other way to look at it, biblically. 

 

 

Okay, first off you say Romans 2:28-29 defines what it is to truly be Jewish.

 

Perfect.

 

Galatians 3:28 (KJV)

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

The same goal of both Jewish born and Gentile born people is to be (as you say) truly Jewish (or as I say Spiritual Israel)

[JohnD]

The points you make Shiloh would be valid if passages like Romans 11:16-26 and Galatians 3:28 did not exist.

 

The folly is to try to continue to segregate Jew and Gentile in the faith.

 

If you are so certain this is addressing only physical Jews then are you suggesting that being physically Jewish is what God wants man to strive for or spiritually Jewish?

 

We humans are a race of hybrids or half breeds if you will (physical and spiritual). Faith is God is living by the spiritual and disciplining the physical... with abandoning the physical for the spiritual (or being weened from the physical) as the purpose of God second only to believing in the Messiah.

 

Is this correct in your thinking / theology?