Celibacy - Gift/No Gift

[EnochBethany]

 

 

I would think that there is no one answer to that question that would fit everyone.

no one answer?  How many answers do you want?

 

Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.  2 But, because of fornications, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband. 

[My, how politicalshmical incorrect; how discriminatory!]

3 Let the husband render unto the wife her due: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.  4 The wife hath not power over her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power over his own body, but the wife.  5 Defraud ye not one the other, except it be by consent for a season, that ye may give yourselves unto prayer, and may be together again, that Satan tempt you not because of your incontinency.  6 But this I say by way of concession, not of commandment.  7  Yet I would that all men were even as I myself. Howbeit each man hath his own gift from God, one after this manner, and another after that.

 

 

Paul was like that, at this point, but scholars are pretty certain that he was married at one time.  Most Pharisees where married, and you had to be married to be a member of the Sanhedrin.  His advice to married couples comes from someone who would seem to have personal knowledge of what being married was like.  His point was not that everyone should be celibate or had to be celibate to be a good Christian.  If one is single, one should be celibate.  That is a given, but it is certainly not a requirement that one remain unmarried.  Some people can, and some people can't.

 

Well, having been with scholars quite a bit in my life, I have not detected any such certainty from scholars.  "Scholars" disagree on everything. 

 

I don't know of any proof that Paul was a member of the Sanhedrin.

I don't know of any proof that the Sanhedrin had such a married rule (we need two documents written before AD 100 to prove this.  I should check to see if Josephus and/or Philo speak on this.  Do you have the refs?

 

I don't know of any advice from Paul that indicates he had to be married to give that advice, & also he was a prophet, speaking from the Lord -- Moreover, he had parents.

 

Verily thou hast said, "His point was not that everyone should be celibate or had to be celibate to be a good Christian. If one is single, one should be celibate. That is a given, but it is certainly not a requirement that one remain unmarried. Some people can, and some people can't."

 

ITA

[Guest DRS81]

 

 

Wanting kids is another issue.  If you got the itch, you don't have the gift.

 

How is it another issue. God made sex specifically to procreate.

 

Well, he did tell man to be fruitful & multiply. Perhaps that has been fulfilled?  But the first purpose given of creating woman was that it was not good that man should live alone.  I know of no scripture that says one is sinning is one avoids conceiving children; but whatever we do it should be becs we love the Lord, neighbor, & want to glorify Him.  1 Cor 7 indicates specifically that a very important purpose of marriage is to avoid fornication.

 

God didn't want man to be alone, but aloneness and procreation I don't think can be compared necessarily. They go hand in hand, for example God didn't want us to be alone and he also wanted us to procreate. So if a person chooses to remain celibate, he's not really alone because the Holy Spirit is with them and fills that void. I would say be fruitful and multiply has been fulfilled, and we are entering a new era of grace and singledom. People just have more choices now than they did back when.

 

 

It's not a requirement, but it's a choice a person makes.

Avoiding marriage because one does not want kids is a good reason I think.

However, there might be persecution if you decide to remain single.

 

 

Not really, unless you believe that intimacy between a man and a woman was created solely by God for procreation, and that concept cannot be supported biblically.

 

It is not a requirement, if one is married, to have children.

 

I don't understand. Do you mean getting married and remaining celibate to that person. Is that even possible??

[The_Patriot21]

I suspect this is one of those that is different from person to person, I dont think there is a one answer fits all. If the answer is yes, that celibacy is a gift and we should all follow it, then we would not see any christians having babies. And yet the Bible tells us to procreate. If we say no, well theres Biblical examples of people who remained Celibate. Its for some people but not for all.

[EnochBethany]

 

 

 

Wanting kids is another issue.  If you got the itch, you don't have the gift.

 

How is it another issue. God made sex specifically to procreate.

 

Well, he did tell man to be fruitful & multiply. Perhaps that has been fulfilled?  But the first purpose given of creating woman was that it was not good that man should live alone.  I know of no scripture that says one is sinning is one avoids conceiving children; but whatever we do it should be becs we love the Lord, neighbor, & want to glorify Him.  1 Cor 7 indicates specifically that a very important purpose of marriage is to avoid fornication.

 

God didn't want man to be alone, but aloneness and procreation I don't think can be compared necessarily. They go hand in hand, for example God didn't want us to be alone and he also wanted us to procreate. So if a person chooses to remain celibate, he's not really alone because the Holy Spirit is with them and fills that void. I would say be fruitful and multiply has been fulfilled, and we are entering a new era of grace and singledom. People just have more choices now than they did back when.

 

 

It's not a requirement, but it's a choice a person makes.

Avoiding marriage because one does not want kids is a good reason I think.

However, there might be persecution if you decide to remain single.

 

 

Not really, unless you believe that intimacy between a man and a woman was created solely by God for procreation, and that concept cannot be supported biblically.

 

It is not a requirement, if one is married, to have children.

 

I don't understand. Do you mean getting married and remaining celibate to that person. Is that even possible??

 

Where does the Bible say that one can't marry to obey 1 Cor 7 & to meet the need of companionship, yet not have children?  Do you have a verse that says, "Thou must have children"?

 

"So if a person chooses to remain celibate, he's not really alone because the Holy Spirit is with them and fills that void."

 

If the void were fillable without a wife, then a man would not be ordered to get a wife.  Where does scripture bring in the Holy Spirit to inject into the issue.  The Spirit says that every man is to have his own wife, in view of the danger of fornication. 

 

Where does scripture say we are entering an age of singledom?  And why do you attach grace to singledom?  Staying single without the gift, is a violation of 1 Cor 7.

 

Now indeed, we may be entering an age where singleness is common, as we have entered an age of fornication.  But it is not God's age.

 

I don't know if we have more choices, but we have different choices, choices expanded in some areas where the govt allows sins it used to oppose.  For example, there used to be laws against fornication, sodomy, & adultery.

 

At any rate the scripture is clear: 

1) marriage of man with woman is a necessity for the general Christian,

2) celibacy is a spiritual gift not to be confused with refraining from having children,

3) refusing to have sex with a spouse is the sin of defrauding.

4) There is no scripture that says to the Christian, "You must produce children."

[nebula]

Hey guys, and good evening. I have a good question.

 

Do you think celibacy is a gift implanted from God into a christian, or is it something that takes time, practice, service and continual prayer..

 

thus being a choice we make.. - Blessings All, DRS81

 

My take on the issue is such -

 

"...from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE. 7 "FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, 8 AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH ; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. 9 "What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." " (Mark 10)

 

Marriage God's default plan for us. Thus, unless you have reason to believe God has spoken to you that He wants you to remain single, it is safe to assume He has marriage plans for you.

 

Thus, while you are waiting for God to bring this person into your life that He means you to be with, occupy your time in preparation - that is, learn how to be a better husband/wife, learn what ministers to the opposite sex, if you are a guy learn what makes a woman feel loved and if you are a woman learn what makes a man feel respected, things like that.

 

 

But how do you know which is God's plan for you - marriage later in life or staying single forever? Ask Him to reveal this to you. Then be open to the answer coming. It could be in the form of dream, or many people speaking the same thing into your life, or something else that prods you, even a prophetic word (if you are open to that).

[nebula]

Wanting kids is another issue.  If you got the itch, you don't have the gift.

How is it another issue. God made sex specifically to procreate.

 

For the animal world, yes. But as a newlywed, I can testify that there is so much more to sex than conceiving a baby. I'll just say that the number one purpose for sex in marriage is strengthening the marriage bond. When you focus on bonding with your spouse and giving your spouse pleasure (not on giving yourself pleasure), you will discover you and your spouse falling more and more in love with each other.

[Guest DRS81]

3) refusing to have sex with a spouse is the sin of defrauding.

4) There is no scripture that says to the Christian, "You must produce children."

 

That right there is what I'm talking about. It's like God is backing us into a corner or something.

3 and 4 are basically saying "please have sex with your wife and let's hope the condom doesn't break because i don't ever want kids." lol.

 

But how do you know which is God's plan for you - marriage later in life or staying single forever? Ask Him to reveal this to you. Then be open to the answer coming. It could be in the form of dream, or many people speaking the same thing into your life, or something else that prods you, even a prophetic word (if you are open to that).

 

I hear that all the time... "well all you gotta do is ask him and hear his voice"....

 

sorry nebula I don't agree with that. it doesn't work. it's just not realistic to me.

 

I've been in Christ for eight years now and still.... no voice.

[EnochBethany]

 

Well, having been with scholars quite a bit in my life, I have not detected any such certainty from scholars.  "Scholars" disagree on everything. 

 

 

I don't know of any proof that Paul was a member of the Sanhedrin.

I don't know of any proof that the Sanhedrin had such a married rule (we need two documents written before AD 100 to prove this.  I should check to see if Josephus and/or Philo speak on this.  Do you have the refs?

 

I don't know of any advice from Paul that indicates he had to be married to give that advice, & also he was a prophet, speaking from the Lord -- Moreover, he had parents.

 

Verily thou hast said, "His point was not that everyone should be celibate or had to be celibate to be a good Christian. If one is single, one should be celibate. That is a given, but it is certainly not a requirement that one remain unmarried. Some people can, and some people can't."

 

ITA

 

 

 "Scholars" disagree on everything.  is a poor out.

 

You can Google any of the questions you ask and get all kinds of results.  I am not one to do people's research for them.  I don't make statements like that before studying the position first.

 

I know of nowhere in the Bible where Paul claims to be a prophet, only an Apostle and the two are not the same thing.

 

It is not a poor out to note that scholars disagree on everything.  The argument that most scholars say or agree is the cop out & an invalid argument, an attempt to fortify one's argument with unknown anonymous persons who aren't here and whose opinions require proof from the Bible anyway.

 

Well, if you make  assertions, the job of proving it is yours. 

If you have proof that scholars generally agree that Paul was married, let's see your proof, unless you think the readers should accept it just because you say it.

 

A prophet is one who speaks the Word of God for God.  Peter says that what Paul wrote is scripture.

 

2 Peter 3:  "5 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also, according to the wisdom given to him, wrote unto you;  16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; wherein are some things hard to be understood, which the ignorant and unstedfast wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."  "knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation."  Scripture is prophetic.

 

Paul predicts the future in Rom 11 very clearly.

 

1 Cor 13:9 Paul, "we prophesy"

 

1 Cor 14:37   If any man thinketh himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him take knowledge of the things which I write unto you, that they are the commandment of the Lord.

 

Being an apostle does not rule out one being a prophet.  It is clear that Revelation is a prophecy.  John is an apostle giving that prophecy.  1:3 "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy,"

 

If you claim Paul was a member of the Sanhedrin & that they had a marriage rule, give us your proof.

Show us one verse where Paul & Sanhedrin are both in the verse indicating Paul was a member.  Then quote us your 1st Century sources.   Maimonides is way too late

 

[nebula]

God didn't want man to be alone, but aloneness and procreation I don't think can be compared necessarily. They go hand in hand, for example God didn't want us to be alone and he also wanted us to procreate.

Whenever I read something like this, I am reminded of a Bill Cosby skit. Yes, Bill Cosby! He had been puzzling over why children are so disobedient. (Parent: "Didn't I tell you not to do that?" Child: "Uh-huh." Parent: "Then why did you do it?" Child: "I dunno!")

Well,he said he found the answer in the Bible.

Notice that the command to "be fruitful and multiply" came after the Fall (!). Thus we see that God gave them this command not when He was happy but when He was angry.

Hear this out:

The First Parent - by Bill Cosby

 

Whenever your kids are out of control, you can take comfort from the

thought that even God's omnipotence did not extend to his kids.

After creating heaven and earth, God created Adam and Eve. And the

first thing God said to them was: "Don't" "Don't what?" Adam asked.

"Don't eat the forbidden fruit," said God.

"Forbidden fruit? Really? Where is it?" Adam and Eve asked jumping

up and down excitedly." "It's over there," said God, wondering why he

hadn't stopped after making the elephants.

A few minutes later God saw the kids having an apple break and he was

very angry. "Didn't I tell you not to eat that fruit?" The First Parent asked.

"Uh huh," Adam replied.

"Then why did you do it?" God asked exasperatedly.

"I dunno, " Adam answered.

God's punishment was that Adam and Eve should have children of their

own. Thus the pattern was set and it has never changed.

 

But there is a reassurance in this story. If you have persistently and

lovingly tried to give your children wisdom and they haven't taken it,

don't be so hard on yourself. If God had trouble handling his

children, what makes you think it should be a piece of cake for you?

Source

 

So if a person chooses to remain celibate, he's not really alone because the Holy Spirit is with them and fills that void. I would say be fruitful and multiply has been fulfilled, and we are entering a new era of grace and singledom. People just have more choices now than they did back when.

I see an error in this thinking.

God did not make us to be "alone". We are a body. That means, He made us to be in relationship with others. Thus, just at there is a "God-sized hole in each of us that only He can fill," there are also human relationship holes in us that only certain human relationships can fulfill - father, mother, friends, etc. Yes, God can comfort us where those holes are left unfilled, but He meant for those holes to be filled with people.

So, it is not a case where the Holy Spirit fills the void, but rather He gives an extra measure of grace to cover the void.

 

 

It is not a requirement, if one is married, to have children.

I don't understand. Do you mean getting married and remaining celibate to that person. Is that even possible??

 

I know of several couples that have been married for decades who never had children, but they were hardly celibate.

It is possible to have sexual relations without getting pregnant - either you follow what is called "the rhythm method" where you abstain during the time the wife has the best chance of getting pregnant, or you use modern methods to prevent pregnancy.

[nebula]

But how do you know which is God's plan for you - marriage later in life or staying single forever? Ask Him to reveal this to you. Then be open to the answer coming. It could be in the form of dream, or many people speaking the same thing into your life, or something else that prods you, even a prophetic word (if you are open to that).

I hear that all the time... "well all you gotta do is ask him and hear his voice"....

 

sorry nebula I don't agree with that. it doesn't work. it's just not realistic to me.

 

I've been in Christ for eight years now and still.... no voice.

 

I'm no expert on hearing God either. But He did give me two words through other people that He had marriage plans for me. Of course, as the years dragged on and on and on I had a hard time believing this. 40 years old and still no prospect in sight! But, the Lord revealed him to me when the time was right.

 

So, as I read your words, I hear the same reasoning that was in my heart and mind - clinging to the concept of "the gift of celibacy" as a means of dealing with the pain.