The SUN (lets take a look see)

[OldSchool2]

... No, it's not a non sequitur.  Don is saying that since we are at the end of the rail line, we can't know what happened further up the tracks.  We can, and we do.  Science is about looking up the rail line all the way to New York while God of the gaps waits for the train to pull in and won't believe what anyone on the train tells them about the trip because the folks in Chicago have an outdated travel guide...

 

"God of the Gaps arguments are a discredited and outmoded approach to apologetics, in which a gap in scientific knowledge is used as evidence for the existence of God ...

"From a philosophical point of view, the inherent problem with a God of the Gaps apologetic is that it relegates God to only a portion of creation -- the portion that we don't understand yet. It places the apologist at a disadvantage by ignoring how the underlying patterns in the things we understand speak to the work of the Creator God. It also denies, in effect, the Christian view of science, which is that science is 'thinking God's thoughts after him'; it does this by suggesting that we can only see God in the areas of nature which we do not understand, rather than seeing him most clearly in those which we do understand ..."

http://www.theopedia.com/God_of_the_Gaps

[Enoch2021]

 

 

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So because some "Un-named" in history "purportedly" attributed these things to "gods" we then adopt this line thinking today and then propagate it ?? 

 

I'm not following.

 

Is this akin to "evolution of the gaps" referring to the Massive Holes in the Fossil Record?

[LookingForAnswers]

 

It's not a personal attack......it's just Fact, as I supported with the Terms and Definitions

 

 

Terms and definition that did not, and could not apply to a question being asked.

 

I'm simply exposing it...and more importantly can speak IN DETAIL to the points.  Most people don't follow "science" topics they just incorporate the current "HEADLINE" into their World View and Roll Tide....cause it must be True....."Scientists wouldn't Lie"

 

 

So I'm giving it more of a Platform and then Shine a LIGHT on it, so to speak.

 

 

We seem to have a different view of what "detail" is.  Allow me to explain.  As a young Christian I was also a YECer because I was basically told it was that or I would go to hell.  But the more I looked at what sites like AIG and creation.com put forth the more I was convinced it was garbage.   It was a very big challenge to my faith at the time and might had led me to abandoning my faith had I not had a friend tell me about Reasons To Believe. So I checked them out, I started to listen to their podcast where they would give unscripted answers to questions they had not seen till the time of the show (Called I didnt know that). At the same time I read numerous books by Dr Ross and Dr Rana and a couple of others from their staff.   Over the course of months, not days and hours, I adjusted my view of the universe.  I do not accept all they put forth, as I do not think any human has all the right answers, but what they say makes sense and is incredibly well supported by their staff.   During this time I also ran across a couple of other apologist like Greg Kokul of Stand To Reason and I have read a few of his books and listen to his weekly podcast. 

What you have been posting is rather fascinating and I will spend the next few months checking it out to see what all the fuss is.  But you have posted no real detail, you post in half sentences and "colorful adjectives" with liberal use of big letters and pretty pictures.   In the mean time I will continue to post alternative views to what you are posting so that those who might choose to read these threads will understand that nothing is crumbling and there are no daggers.

Edited March 14, 2014 by LookingForAnswers

[jerryR34]

 

 

 

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So because some "Un-named" in history "purportedly" attributed these things to "gods" we then adopt this line thinking today and then propagate it ?? 

 

I'm not following.

 

Is this akin to "evolution of the gaps" referring to the Massive Holes in the Fossil Record?

 

Ok, if it will help you, I'll call it an argument from incredulity.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

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Terms and definition that did not, and could not apply to a question being asked.

 

Yea, they do and its quite obvious.

 

 

AIG and creation.com put forth the more I was convinced it was garbage.

 

Sweeping Ad Hominem unless you provide some details.  (I guess you were trying to be concise for brevity?)

 

 

It was a very big challenge to my faith at the time and might had led me to abandoning my faith

 

Here's my issue with the "Abandoning" or anything that can lead to the "Abandonment" of Faith.

 

Maybe I'm wrong here but..... to be a Christian one has a Personal Relationship with Jesus Christ, Correct.

 

To "Abandon" that Faith is saying .......HE Does Not Exist.

 

This is Tantamount to being Married to a Woman and having kids then One Day saying, "that's it, I don't believe that woman exists"

 

 

But you have posted no real detail, you post in half sentences and "colorful adjectives" with liberal use of big letters and pretty pictures.

 

HOGWASH.  Let's review, just this specific topic:

 

I stated what the Current Theory is AND as SIMPLY as Possible stated these.......

 

1. The Missing Neutrinos Brought about by the fusion of 4 Hydrogen-------> Helium = (Boatloads of Energy) AND--------------> NEUTRINOS.  OK, Where are they?  According to the Literature they've found 1/3-1/2 of what there should be.  Where's the rest?.....did the Dark Matter swallow them up?

 

2. Heat Transport Problem:  In fluid dynamics, you can count the Reynolds Number of the Sun.  Turns out that this number is 100 Billion Times to Big for Convection to occur!!!  Don't know what that means, but it doesn't sound good. LOL

 

3.  Temp Minimum in the Chromosphere ??  What in the World?  If you have heat generated @ the core (from Thermo-Nuclear Reactions) , the Temp should get lower and lower the further you move from the source.  What actually happens?....Why yes, the Exact Opposite...... of Logarithmic Magnitudes!!  Guess they forgot about the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics (Heat Doesn't Flow UpHill !!!)

 So the Temperature from the Surface of the Sun (PhotoSphere) on it's way to the Chromosphere dips a bit then slowly rises through the ChromoSphere and then GOES PARABOLIC when nearing the Corona.  That's like standing near a Wood Stove then moving back 100 meters because it's too hot and then you Spontaneously Combust!!!!!

 

4.  In the Above Bar Graph, the bars to the left show the Speed of Ionized Particles (Hydrogen and Oxygen) beginning on the Surface of the Sun, then----->Mercury------->Venus---->Earth.  How In The World are they SPEEDING UP??  It's tantamount to throwing a baseball 90 mph then the ball continually speeds up the farther away it gets.  Please don't say Gravity LOL

 

Complete with Diagrams and Graphs for cryin out loud,  because alot of people are Visual Learners (I use to be an EDUCATOR) and.....

 

1. A scientist must keep track of the information by recording the data.

    The data should be presented visually, if possible, such as through a graph or table.

2. A control must be used.

    That way, results can be compared to something.

3. Conclusions must be drawn from the results.

4. Errors must be reported.'

http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/designing-experiments-using-the-scientific-method.html

 

 

AND.....MY TARGET AUDIENCE IS/are people with some/little or no Science background whatsoever.

 

It's very easy to understand IMHO.....and packs a Wallop.  As evidenced by the LACK OF ANYTHING "coherent" refuting any of the points.

 

Your claim is without any merit/substance and is summarily refuted just by a CURSORY review of the CONTENT.

 

 

In the mean time I will continue to post alternative views

 

Can you point me to one with substantiating evidence?  Or are you speaking to alternative "Headlines"?

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

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Well we know that Information is Supernatural and CODE only comes from Intelligence.....soooooooooo  GOD!!!

 

Or

 

"Specific Complexity"..........soooooooooooo GOD!!!

 

 

Can you show me the "Gaps"?

 

Thanks

[LookingForAnswers]

 

 

 

Sweeping Ad Hominem unless you provide some details.  (I guess you were trying to be concise for brevity?)

 

 

no, I was stating a personal opinion. 

 

 

Here's my issue with the "Abandoning" or anything that can lead to the "Abandonment" of Faith.

 

Maybe I'm wrong here but..... to be a Christian one has a Personal Relationship with Jesus Christ, Correct.

 

To "Abandon" that Faith is saying .......HE Does Not Exist.

 

This is Tantamount to being Married to a Woman and having kids then One Day saying, "that's it, I don't believe that woman exists"

 

 

First off, yes that is what losing your faith means.  Second, you example is terrible, to be polite.  if I was married to a woman that would mean i have physically seen her and touched her. I have physical, empirical evidence of her existence, there is no faith needed.  Further, if we have children I have had intimate physical relations with her, again no faith needed to know that she exist.    Like it or not, that is not the case with God or Jesus.   The Bible gives us a clear definition of what faith is...Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.   We have no proof that Jesus even existed, we have no proof that He is the Son of God, these things are based up faith.  It is our faith that saves us...For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:  It is not our belief in what we have proof of, it is our faith in what is unseen.  So, your comparison is faulty logic to the extreme

 

As far as the rest of your post, well I am not posting things to try and win you over, you dismiss what you don't agree with and it would be a waste of time.  I am providing an alternative view, the fact you don't find ti compelling is totally irrelevant as you, to use your words, are not the target audience. 

Edited March 15, 2014 by LookingForAnswers

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

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Second, you example is terrible, to be polite.  if I was married to a woman that would mean i have physically seen her and touched her. I have physical, empirical evidence of her existence, there is no faith needed.  Further, if we have children I have had intimate physical relations with her, again no faith needed to know that she exist.

 

It's wasn't an example..... it was an analogy, a quite apt one.  Your "Empirical" evidence is noted, I will speak to this below.

 

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.  

 

(Hebrews 11:1) "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

 

 

(Slide Courtesy Dr. Chuck Missler)

 

Therefore, Faith isn't some Spiritual Term denoting a smokey/surreal concept that has no Empirical Base.

 

And Unseen doesn't mean Unknowable or Unprovable....

 

You're walking down a country road nobody around for miles and you come across a BMW. "MOST" intuitively know that nature didn't create the car there had to be an Engineer (Designer). Even though you will most likely never see the (Designer)....you know HE'S out there!

 

"Specific Complexity" is the Overwhelming Compelling Factor in the Matter.........................SUBSTANCE

 

 

We have no proof that Jesus even existed, we have no proof that He is the Son of God,

 

Except The Bible.  With Historicity and Prophecy that is UNCHALLENGEABLE!! ..............SUBSTANCE ^{10000000000000000000000000000000000000------->} 

 

And the Apostles that were killed for their belief.................................................................SUBSTANCE

 

 

As far as the rest of your post, well I am not posting things to try and win you over, you dismiss what you don't agree with and it would be a waste of time.

 

Summarily Dismiss, eh? Yes, I figured that.  I will dismiss "Headlines" you are quite right.  As I said previously, agreement and disagreement are irrelevant terms in science.

[LookingForAnswers]

 

 

 

 

Therefore, Faith isn't some Spiritual Term denoting a smokey/surreal concept that has no Empirical Base.

 

 

Yes, faith is a real thing but it is based upon what cannot be proven.  Once something has been proven faith is no longer necessary.  Your wife can tell you that she has 10 dollars in her purse and you can with out seeing it have faith that it is there.  Once she shows you the 10 dollars faith is no longer required or even applicable.   So yes, in this case unseen does mean unprovable, because proof removes the need for faith.

 

Except The Bible.  With Historicity and Prophecy that is UNCHALLENGEABLE!! ..............SUBSTANCE ^{10000000000000000000000000000000000000------->} 

 

And the Apostles that were killed for their belief.................................................................SUBSTANCE

 

 

you know enough about science to understand the difference between evidence and proof.  And lots of people were killed for false beliefs. 

 

I am not saying that God does not exist, I am saying there is no proof that he does, and that is by His own design.  We are to come to Him via faith, not via proof. 

 

Rom 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.  Faith comes from hearing the message of Christ, not through any "proof".  why do people feel the need to belittle what faith is and make it something it is not.

Proof removes the need for faith, it even removes the possibility of faith Heb 11: ⁶ And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.  And once you have removed faith, you are in real trouble.

Edited March 15, 2014 by LookingForAnswers

[Tolken]

Enoch2021 - Therefore, Faith isn't some Spiritual Term denoting a smokey/surreal concept that has no Empirical Base.

 

Why would one need "Faith" if absolute evidence existed?  In such circumstance as empirical evidence Faith would be unnecessary. One need distinguish between blind faith and reasoned faith yet what remains is faith, a belief with hope. Hebrew 11:1 creates a contrast/paradox in whatever translation -

 

confidence / hope,  assurance / not see, substance / hope,  evidence / not seen, conviction / not seen, certain /unseen....... 

 

And Unseen doesn't mean Unknowable or Unprovable.... it means Faith, not proof.

 

“Specific Complexity" is the Overwhelming Compelling Factor in the Matter ... naturalistic explanation

 

Bible -With Historicity and Prophecy that is UNCHALLENGEABLE!!  ... Circular Argument

 

And the Apostles that were killed for their belief  ....False dichotomy

 

All arguments whether cosmological, teleological, ontological, moral, etc.  have their refuted counterpoints. Hebrews 11:6 “...must believe that he exists...” Faith is the only answer, preferably reasoned.

Edited March 15, 2014 by Tolken