Who are we to obey the law or grace, the old commandments or Christ

[johz77]

Thanks ye all. I pray that God will keep His words in our lives in Jesus name

[kwikphilly]

Blessing johz,

     Praise & Glory to God,the Great I Am......Blessed Abba! You can give thanks to God because He ALWAYS keeps His Word,He is not a man that He could lie,,,,He is faithful & true to His Word,Halleluliah!

                                                                                                                        With love-in Christ,Kwik

[Openly Curious]

Romans 9:23-26 - And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.  Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?   As he saith also in Osee (Hosea), I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not my beloved.  And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

 

Romans 9:30-33 - What shall we say then?  That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.  But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.  Wherefore?  Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law.  For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;  As it is written, Behold I lay in Zion a stumblingstone and rock of offence:  and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. (Romans 10:11)

 

Hosea 2:23 - And I will sow her unto me in the earth;  and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy;  and I will say to them which were not my people; and they shall say,  Thou art my God.

 

The gospel of Jesus Christ is offered to both to the Jews and Gentiles.  The righteousness that was imputed to Abraham came through faith as he believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness.  The righteousness which is by faith is not an outer work  and does not come through keeping the law.  Because the law could not make anyone righteous within.  But the righteousness which is by faith and is an inward work of the heart done by the Spirit of the living God. (Romans 2:28-29) which comes through faith in Jesus Christ in which we are saved by grace and made a new creature in him .  The oath or covenant of promise God made with Abraham was made before the covenant or law of Moses with Israel.  Christ work and death on the cross fulfilled the law of Moses as he was the spotless lamb without blemish and only had to be offered up once doing away with the blood of bulls and goats (Hebrews 9 & 10)  Even though Christ fulfilled the law of Moses that didn't disannul the covenant of promise God made to Abraham it is still in effect.   1.)  Just what was the promise God made with Abraham that the Jews were blinded too and sought it not by faith but sought it through the works of the law and that the Gentiles have attained by faith and not through the law?  2.)  And just who are the heirs of the blessings of Abraham?  Romans 4:13-25.   The heirs of the blessings of Abraham are the heirs of salvation all born again believers from every nationality and walk of life.

 

Galatians 3:13-18;  Galatians 3:26-29  
 

I'm glad I can say to the Lord "Thou art my God."  I'm glad I can say that I'm numbered among God's chosen people and that I am an adopted Jew made one inwardly though the righteous that comes through faith by grace a changed heart as I was made a new creature in Jesus.  I once wasn't among the people of God and now I'm called the Beloved.

[Qnts2]

The OP makes a very good point. Straddling the fence between the two covenants (New and Old) does not work and is a difficulty our Jewish born brethren (who hold to Messianic or Torah observant views in addition to their faith in Y'shua Jesus). My sometimes biblical review of how Protestants imitate the very Roman Catholicism they allegedly reformed from is akin to my biblical review of those Jewish born believers in Jesus who force Torah observance into the New Covenant and being the natural branches of the Olive Tree identify too much with the cut off natural branches (the Jews who do not believe in Jesus) and their practices.

 

The fault in each case is because people do not understand (not fully anyway) what it is being the "new man" in Christ. We are not just people who believe... we are children of God! And the old titles and separations and distinctions are kaput.

 

Galatians 3:24-28 (KJV)

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

Since this post is confusing for those who do not really understand Messianic Judaism, I'll state again, there is Messianic Judaism, and there are some who call themselves Messianic, which is a predominantly Gentile group. The Gentile group which calls itself Messianic subscribe to a theology called One Law theology. They teach that there is one law (Mosaic law) which applies to both Jew and Gentiles who believe in Jesus/Yeshua. Messianic Judaism does not teach One Law but has written position papers against that teaching. 

 

Messianic Jews were raised in families that practiced Judaism, and have parents, brothers and sisters who practice Judaism. That means that Messianic Jews have families which might keep Kosher. To have family over to our homes for dinner, our homes must be Kosher. The practice is such that our former friends and families can stop by, and when we go to their homes, we are able to have open fellowship. It is done to continue in relationship with our community and family for the opportunity to share the good news about Jesus.  

 

While I know some do not understand, as Jews, there is freedom, not only to be free from the law, but also freedom to follow the practices of the law. I can keep Kosher, and I can go to a Gentile home and eat ham. Whatever is profitable for the sake of the gospel. When a person intentionally does things to avoid what is in the law, that is a new law. Is the new law, to be free, we are not allowed to have a Kosher home? Or are we free and can chose to keep a Kosher home, not to win approval from God, but for the sake of the gospel, or even for the sake of our taste buds? (Kosher food has a different taste, and if you were raised on Kosher food, it tastes better. Non-Kosher meat has blood which alters the taste of the meat).  

[nebula]

That is interesting to know, Qnts - Thanks!

[JohnD]

 

The OP makes a very good point. Straddling the fence between the two covenants (New and Old) does not work and is a difficulty our Jewish born brethren (who hold to Messianic or Torah observant views in addition to their faith in Y'shua Jesus). My sometimes biblical review of how Protestants imitate the very Roman Catholicism they allegedly reformed from is akin to my biblical review of those Jewish born believers in Jesus who force Torah observance into the New Covenant and being the natural branches of the Olive Tree identify too much with the cut off natural branches (the Jews who do not believe in Jesus) and their practices.

 

The fault in each case is because people do not understand (not fully anyway) what it is being the "new man" in Christ. We are not just people who believe... we are children of God! And the old titles and separations and distinctions are kaput.

 

Galatians 3:24-28 (KJV)

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

Since this post is confusing for those who do not really understand Messianic Judaism, I'll state again, there is Messianic Judaism, and there are some who call themselves Messianic, which is a predominantly Gentile group. The Gentile group which calls itself Messianic subscribe to a theology called One Law theology. They teach that there is one law (Mosaic law) which applies to both Jew and Gentiles who believe in Jesus/Yeshua. Messianic Judaism does not teach One Law but has written position papers against that teaching. 

 

Messianic Jews were raised in families that practiced Judaism, and have parents, brothers and sisters who practice Judaism. That means that Messianic Jews have families which might keep Kosher. To have family over to our homes for dinner, our homes must be Kosher. The practice is such that our former friends and families can stop by, and when we go to their homes, we are able to have open fellowship. It is done to continue in relationship with our community and family for the opportunity to share the good news about Jesus.  

 

While I know some do not understand, as Jews, there is freedom, not only to be free from the law, but also freedom to follow the practices of the law. I can keep Kosher, and I can go to a Gentile home and eat ham. Whatever is profitable for the sake of the gospel. When a person intentionally does things to avoid what is in the law, that is a new law. Is the new law, to be free, we are not allowed to have a Kosher home? Or are we free and can chose to keep a Kosher home, not to win approval from God, but for the sake of the gospel, or even for the sake of our taste buds? (Kosher food has a different taste, and if you were raised on Kosher food, it tastes better. Non-Kosher meat has blood which alters the taste of the meat).  

 

 

Great commentary!

 

I hope my writings do not imply that we cannot keep kosher. In fact, why would God's requirements for his OT covenant not be to the benefit of his people health wise etc.?

 

It is in the keeping kosher to obey the law that would present a problem.

 

But no, keeping kosher is extremely beneficial and I enjoy a good kosher deli when I  live near one. 

 

DZ Akins in San Diego was a very frequent haunt of mine...

[Qnts2]

 

 

 

Great commentary!

 

I hope my writings do not imply that we cannot keep kosher. In fact, why would God's requirements for his OT covenant not be to the benefit of his people health wise etc.?

 

It is in the keeping kosher to obey the law that would present a problem.

 

But no, keeping kosher is extremely beneficial and I enjoy a good kosher deli when I  live near one. 

 

DZ Akins in San Diego was a very frequent haunt of mine...

 

 

Just another comment. Scripture never gives a reason for the Kosher/dietary laws. So to believe that Kosher is somehow more healthy is not something supported in scripture.

 

In reality, a Kosher diet is not necessarily a healthy diet. To make it healthy, a person has to do so intentionally, just like a person who eats a non-kosher diet must intentionally alter the way they cook to have a healthier diet. For example, lard was once a common ingredient but those who keep Kosher never use lard since lard is made from pig fat. Instead, those who keep Kosher, without regard for healthy food, use chicken fat (schmaltz), which isn't healthy at all, but is kosher.  Kosher food can be biblically and halachically Kosher, and be very artery clogging, and very good tasting too.  

[Guest Butero]

I don't believe the dietary laws in the OT had anything to do with being healthy.  It was to show that Israel was a separate people from the unclean and idolatrous gentile nations around them.  God gave them the knowledge of clean and unclean animals, and said that as his people, they were to eat only those animals that were considered clean.  If somebody wants to eat a kosher diet, for any reason they choose, including keeping the law, there is no problem with it.  Notice what it says in Romans 14:1-3:

 

1   HIM that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

2  For one believeth that he may eat all things:  another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

3  Let not him that eateth despise him that eatheth not:  and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth:  for God hath received him.

 

I believe I can eat any food set before me, because the symbolism of eating shows that the gentiles have found acceptance with God through faith in Christ.  At the same time, I am not to despise those people in the church that choose to eat kosher because they still believe they must keep that portion of the law of Moses.  That man is not to judge my salvation, and I am not to automatically write him off as unsaved and accuse him of being fallen from grace.  It is a two way street.  People generally want to focus all the attention on their side of the road only.  If I eat, I want to attack the brother or sister who would tell me pork is unclean.  I would tend to be angry with them for holding that position.  If I don't eat, I would want to attack the person who does eat, and call them unsaved.  Biblically, I am told to accept the fact that not everyone looks at things the same.  God will sort out the wheat from the tares at the final judgment. 

[nebula]

I actually believe there are health benefits to kosher, especially in unsanitary societies.

 

Pigs carry many parasites, and people still this day get infected with them.

 

Shellfish are filter feeders; thus when eating shellfish one is eating an animal that takes in toxins and grime out of the water.

 

Carnivores are more likely to eat the weak and diseased animals than the strong and healthy ones; if "you are what you eat" then consider what they are filled with.

[saved34]

Can we follow Moses and Christ together? Why do we look into the Old Testament for direction!

The Law and many of it's ordinances had a foreshadowing of the true or heavenly things which are fulfilled in Christ. All of the Apostles quoted from the Law and the Prophets and opened up the true meaning of many of the old passages. When the heart turns to Christ the heart can see how God progressively brought forth his plan of redemption from the Old to the New. 

 

No we cannot follow Moses and Christ, Moses and his Law was given to send men to Christ and his salvation.

 

Gal 3:19  Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. 

 

Gal 3:24  So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 

Gal 3:25  But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 

 

The Law is Holy and just, but it had no delivering power. In fact it is the very strength of sin. It is an economy of condemnation and accusation. It was never intended for deliverance. It is called the "Law of sin and death" and "the ministry of death". We are now under a new rule, "the Law of the Spirit of Life". 

 

1Co 15:56  The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 

 

2Co 3:7  Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses' face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, 

2Co 3:8  will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory? 

2Co 3:9  For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory. 

 

Trying to keep the Law is valiant but futile, the law only incites the flesh to do contrary (Or exposes the utter deprave nature in us).  

 

Rom 7:7  What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "You shall not covet." 

Rom 7:8  But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 

 

Rom 7:9  Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 

Rom 7:10  I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 

Rom 7:11  For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 

 

Our rule of life is now through the power of the Holy Spirit. Following his lead, walking in his trailblazing steps gives us victory over the flesh and produces a practical righteousness in us. The first step in this process is understanding that you are no longer under the Law or under a workman like religion where you must appease God with good works or die, no. The conscious must be clean and understanding of the fact that "There is no condemnation to them who are in Christ". God is satisfied with Christ, and when you enter by faith into relationship with Christ you now have peace with God, not through effort or your good works, but through the Atoning work of Christ. Christ is a sweet smelling fragrance to God on our behalf. This truth must be settled if there is to be any real growth or any real victory in our daily living. 

 

Rom 7:24  What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 

Rom 7:25  Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. 

 

Rom 8:1  Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 

Rom 8:2  because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 

 

Rom 5:1  Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 

 

Heb 9:14  How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! 

 

Rom 7:4  So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 

 

In all reality to follow the Law of Moses as a rule or guide for Christian living is equivalent to living in the flesh or by the flesh. It is a mere "elementary religion" almost as low as asceticism. Praise God for his Law, and I mean no disrespect to it, it is only this way because of us and our weaknesses.

 

 Rom 7:5  For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 

Rom 7:6  But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. 

 

Col 2:20  Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: 

Col 2:21  "Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 

Col 2:22  These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. 

Col 2:23  Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.