Predestination vs free choice

[Izzel]

 

 

 

Interesting subject...

 

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. (Ephesians 1:3-6)

 

How do you read this? Just curious...

Very simple.   Notice what is says we were chosen to be:   We were chosen to be holy and blame.ess before Him in love AND we are predestined to the adoption as  sons.   This is talking about what God chosen, before the foundation of the world, that Christians should be come.  it is not saying that God chose who would become Christians.  The word "predestine" means "to set off beforehand" and refers to what God has predestined for believers.  

 

The word "adoption" can be kind of confusing if we don’t understand what it meant in the first century.  It means, “to set as an adult.” Paul is using, as an illustration, the Roman practice of adopting a son and then not only bequeathing him all of his possessions, but giving him his civil status as a adult citizen; Thus God takes a believing sinner, regenerates him, and by means of this makes him His “born” child.  Then He takes this child and places him in a legal position as an adult son. We thus become joint-heirs with Christ, having been raised to a civil status as adult sons, in which we become heirs of God, inheriting jointly with Christ all that He possesses as an heir of God the Father by virtue of His Sonship and work on the Cross.

 

Simply put, before the foundation of the world, God already the plan of salvation figured out.  And in that plan, He chose for Christians to be holy and blameless before Him in love and in doing so He predestined (chose beforehand) us to the adoption as sons.

 

Could David  have lost salvation ?

 

Bro, since David is dead and in Glory, what difference does the question make? If David had not repented, he would not have turned out to be the David we now know in scripture and his faith would have been insufficient and failed, but it did not. And now his present and future have become our past and so it is finished and done. 

 

David was saved the moment God anoited him king and could not have failed 

 

All Gods great men sinned even John the Baptiste

 

Ecclesiastes 7:20

King James Version (KJV)

20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

 

 

 

How was Solomon saved and by what means ?

[Guest Butero]

 

Jeremiah 1

King James Version (KJV)

1 The words of Jeremiah the son of Hilkiah, of the priests that were in Anathoth in the land of Benjamin:

 

 

2 To whom the word of the Lord came in the days of Josiah the son of Amon king of Judah, in the thirteenth year of his reign.

 

 

3 It came also in the days of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the end of the eleventh year of Zedekiah the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the carrying away of Jerusalem captive in the fifth month.

 

 

4 Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

 

 

5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

 

Has our destiny been carved out already ?

 

Do we carve our own destiny ?

 

I would say that our destiny has been carved out already.  We do go through life making our own decisions, but since God created us, knowing full well what decisions we would make, we really aren't carving out our own destiny. 

[Guest shiloh357]

However, I do have a couple of follow up questions (and I'm not concerned about debating, but rather your thoughts on the matter)

 

The first question is this: Do you think that God in His omniscience knows who will respond or reject the gospel call?

 

Of course.  That is would be a text-book example of His omnscience.  God knows who will and will accept His call and who will reject it.

 

The second question is one that I posted in another thread and would like to re-post here for comment concerning "The son of perdition":

 

John 17:11-12 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. (NKJV)

 

I submit the following for consideration and comment:

 

1) One of the twelve was certain to be doomed in order that scripture would be fulfilled. (Ps 41:9, Zech.11:12, et.al)

 

2) That this plan was put into place from the time that man fell in the garden (Gen 3:15)

 

3) That God Himself ordained that Messiah would be betrayed and given over to the executioner

 

4) That the cross was necessary and unavoidable in order to complete His redemptive plan for mankind. (Ps 22, Isaiah 53, et.al)

 

5) And all this from the "foundation of the world" (1 Peter 1:19-22)

 

So then, it would appear that God predestined one of the twelve to be lost that Messianic scripture would be fulfilled...How is this reconciled (do you think) with the previous assertions?

 

I think you overstating what the Scripture actually says.   It is not saying that God ordained Judas Iscariot to betray Jesus.  It is not saying that God caused Judas to be born in order to destroy him as the son of perdition.  God is revealing the future.  God knows that Jesus will be betrayed and He tells us so.   The Scripture doesn't say, "God ordained"  Judas Iscariot to play the role he played.  Judas will fulfill the Scriptures prophecy, but that doesn't mean that God chose Judas and assigned him to destruction.  That would contradict what you quoted earlier that, "God is not willing that any should perish..."  

 

Where we can fall into danger is when we cross over into what I call a "hyper-sovereignty" mode and assume that every detail of every event is ordained by God and the Bible never communicates God's sovereignty to us in that way.   God is sovereignly in control of everything and in His omniscience He knows every thing we will do and everything the enemy will do and He has already set in place how He will guide those events to the end He wants.

 

There are future events that God has set by His own wisdom and will.  But that doesn't include the color of shirt I put on this morning. He didn't ordain what I would have for breakfast.  He also didn't predestine that I would be saved. He ordained the opportunities, but not my decision. 

 

Recall that Jesus gave Judas every opportunity to repent. It was in Judas' power not to betray Jesus.  Jesus knew that Judas would betray Him and He chose Him anyway, to be His disciple.   Judas' entire biblical profile is an evil one.   But Judas made his own decision.   it was not "predestined" to him.

[OneLight]

 

 

Jeremiah 1

King James Version (KJV)

1 The words of Jeremiah the son of Hilkiah, of the priests that were in Anathoth in the land of Benjamin:

 

 

2 To whom the word of the Lord came in the days of Josiah the son of Amon king of Judah, in the thirteenth year of his reign.

 

 

3 It came also in the days of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the end of the eleventh year of Zedekiah the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the carrying away of Jerusalem captive in the fifth month.

 

 

4 Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

 

 

5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

 

Has our destiny been carved out already ?

 

Do we carve our own destiny ?

 

I would say that our destiny has been carved out already.  We do go through life making our own decisions, but since God created us, knowing full well what decisions we would make, we really aren't carving out our own destiny. 

 

 

There is a difference between God knowing what we will do and us making decisions.  We are changing our future when we make decisions.  Since we don't know the outcome, we do so in faith.  I don't see it as carving out a destiny, but making choices.  Our final destiny is in Gods hands.  He will decide our heart.  What goes into our heart is derived by the decisions we make.

[missmuffet]

The Bible says that we have a choice John 3:16.The Bible never describes God rejecting anyone who believes in Him.God predestines who will be saved and we must choose Christ in order to be saved.It works hand-in-hand.Both facts are true.

[Guest shiloh357]

The Bible says that we have a choice John 3:16.The Bible never describes God rejecting anyone who believes in Him.God predestines who will be saved and we must choose Christ in order to be saved.It works hand-in-hand.Both facts are true.

The Bible NEVER says that God predestines who will be saved, not a single verse anywhere to support that.

[Guest]

 

In Fact

 

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Revelation 4:11

 

God Loves Everybody

 

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:13-15

 

As For Loving God Back, Not Everybody Will

 

Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called? If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. James 4:7-9

[Guest Butero]

The Bible says that we have a choice John 3:16.The Bible never describes God rejecting anyone who believes in Him.God predestines who will be saved and we must choose Christ in order to be saved.It works hand-in-hand.Both facts are true.

On the one hand, we do make a decision to accept or reject Christ, but on the other hand, we are only capable of belief if God reveals his son to us. 

[Izzel]

 

However, I do have a couple of follow up questions (and I'm not concerned about debating, but rather your thoughts on the matter)

 

The first question is this: Do you think that God in His omniscience knows who will respond or reject the gospel call?

 

Of course.  That is would be a text-book example of His omnscience.  God knows who will and will accept His call and who will reject it.

 

The second question is one that I posted in another thread and would like to re-post here for comment concerning "The son of perdition":

 

John 17:11-12 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. (NKJV)

 

I submit the following for consideration and comment:

 

1) One of the twelve was certain to be doomed in order that scripture would be fulfilled. (Ps 41:9, Zech.11:12, et.al)

 

2) That this plan was put into place from the time that man fell in the garden (Gen 3:15)

 

3) That God Himself ordained that Messiah would be betrayed and given over to the executioner

 

4) That the cross was necessary and unavoidable in order to complete His redemptive plan for mankind. (Ps 22, Isaiah 53, et.al)

 

5) And all this from the "foundation of the world" (1 Peter 1:19-22)

 

So then, it would appear that God predestined one of the twelve to be lost that Messianic scripture would be fulfilled...How is this reconciled (do you think) with the previous assertions?

 

I think you overstating what the Scripture actually says.   It is not saying that God ordained Judas Iscariot to betray Jesus.  It is not saying that God caused Judas to be born in order to destroy him as the son of perdition.  God is revealing the future.  God knows that Jesus will be betrayed and He tells us so.   The Scripture doesn't say, "God ordained"  Judas Iscariot to play the role he played.  Judas will fulfill the Scriptures prophecy, but that doesn't mean that God chose Judas and assigned him to destruction.  That would contradict what you quoted earlier that, "God is not willing that any should perish..."  

 

Where we can fall into danger is when we cross over into what I call a "hyper-sovereignty" mode and assume that every detail of every event is ordained by God and the Bible never communicates God's sovereignty to us in that way.   God is sovereignly in control of everything and in His omniscience He knows every thing we will do and everything the enemy will do and He has already set in place how He will guide those events to the end He wants.

 

There are future events that God has set by His own wisdom and will.  But that doesn't include the color of shirt I put on this morning. He didn't ordain what I would have for breakfast.  He also didn't predestine that I would be saved. He ordained the opportunities, but not my decision. 

 

Recall that Jesus gave Judas every opportunity to repent. It was in Judas' power not to betray Jesus.  Jesus knew that Judas would betray Him and He chose Him anyway, to be His disciple.   Judas' entire biblical profile is an evil one.   But Judas made his own decision.   it was not "predestined" to him.

 

The bible says Jesus chose Judas and he was the devil from the start 

 

What if Jesus did not choose Judas ?

 

vessels to honour and to dishonour 

 

Who can tell God what doesth Thou ?

 

Do you think Jesus had free choice ?

[Guest Butero]

 

 

However, I do have a couple of follow up questions (and I'm not concerned about debating, but rather your thoughts on the matter)

 

The first question is this: Do you think that God in His omniscience knows who will respond or reject the gospel call?

 

Of course.  That is would be a text-book example of His omnscience.  God knows who will and will accept His call and who will reject it.

 

The second question is one that I posted in another thread and would like to re-post here for comment concerning "The son of perdition":

 

John 17:11-12 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. (NKJV)

 

I submit the following for consideration and comment:

 

1) One of the twelve was certain to be doomed in order that scripture would be fulfilled. (Ps 41:9, Zech.11:12, et.al)

 

2) That this plan was put into place from the time that man fell in the garden (Gen 3:15)

 

3) That God Himself ordained that Messiah would be betrayed and given over to the executioner

 

4) That the cross was necessary and unavoidable in order to complete His redemptive plan for mankind. (Ps 22, Isaiah 53, et.al)

 

5) And all this from the "foundation of the world" (1 Peter 1:19-22)

 

So then, it would appear that God predestined one of the twelve to be lost that Messianic scripture would be fulfilled...How is this reconciled (do you think) with the previous assertions?

 

I think you overstating what the Scripture actually says.   It is not saying that God ordained Judas Iscariot to betray Jesus.  It is not saying that God caused Judas to be born in order to destroy him as the son of perdition.  God is revealing the future.  God knows that Jesus will be betrayed and He tells us so.   The Scripture doesn't say, "God ordained"  Judas Iscariot to play the role he played.  Judas will fulfill the Scriptures prophecy, but that doesn't mean that God chose Judas and assigned him to destruction.  That would contradict what you quoted earlier that, "God is not willing that any should perish..."  

 

Where we can fall into danger is when we cross over into what I call a "hyper-sovereignty" mode and assume that every detail of every event is ordained by God and the Bible never communicates God's sovereignty to us in that way.   God is sovereignly in control of everything and in His omniscience He knows every thing we will do and everything the enemy will do and He has already set in place how He will guide those events to the end He wants.

 

There are future events that God has set by His own wisdom and will.  But that doesn't include the color of shirt I put on this morning. He didn't ordain what I would have for breakfast.  He also didn't predestine that I would be saved. He ordained the opportunities, but not my decision. 

 

Recall that Jesus gave Judas every opportunity to repent. It was in Judas' power not to betray Jesus.  Jesus knew that Judas would betray Him and He chose Him anyway, to be His disciple.   Judas' entire biblical profile is an evil one.   But Judas made his own decision.   it was not "predestined" to him.

 

The bible says Jesus chose Judas and he was the devil from the start 

 

What if Jesus did not choose Judas ?

 

vessels to honour and to dishonour 

 

Who can tell God what doesth Thou ?

 

Do you think Jesus had free choice ?

 

Jesus is God, so of course he had a choice.  I agree with you that Judas had no choice, and was created to be the betrayer.  He was going to fulfill that roll.  Everything he did was already prophesied to happen, including him selling out Jesus for 30 pieces of silver and hanging himself.