Predestination vs free choice

[missmuffet]

 

The Bible says that we have a choice John 3:16.The Bible never describes God rejecting anyone who believes in Him.God predestines who will be saved and we must choose Christ in order to be saved.It works hand-in-hand.Both facts are true.

The Bible NEVER says that God predestines who will be saved, not a single verse anywhere to support that.

 

God knows before we are born who will choose Him.

[ajchurney]

 

 

Was Pharoh predestined and did he make a choice to repent

Pharoah was used by God. He was not predestined to do what he did.   God hardened Pharoah's heart AFTER Pharoah hardened his own heart ...

 

 

I recall several verses in Exodus where Pharaoh is said to harden his own heart as well as an equal number of verses that states God hardened Pharaoh's heart, yet there was no attempt to reconcile the two views.

This seems to suggest the two do "co-exist and intersect" in ways a Western mindset perhaps doesn't fully comprehend.

Perhaps the idea of "He gave them over" in Rom 1 brings light here. Both are true, so both are written.

 

OK, but God stepping aside by withdrawing His grace -- or simply leaving sinners to their own devices -- is much more passive an act than actually hardening someone's heart, regardless of who does what first.

Exodus 7:3

But I shall harden his heart, and shall multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt ...

Exodus 14:4

And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, and the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD ...

Then there's Exodus 9:16 and Romans 9:17 where God both raises up Pharaoh and hardens his heart for His glory.

See "Why did God harden Pharaoh’s heart?"

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aiia/aiia-pharaoh.html

 

I do not have a problem with that God facilitates and uses the decisions and inclinations of hearts for His own glory. As has been said in the thread, it is crystal clear that God's general will is "for NONE to perish, but for ALL to come to repentance". To me, this strictly rules out the possibility of God Specifically forcing a man into rebellion, like a puppet master. However, God knows all things, including the future, and the true motivations and desires of every heart, therefore He is not unjust to use this foreknowledge to His advantage and glorification in the earth. It is a delicate balance to be completely loving and merciful, yet completely just in judgement at the same time, but I completely believe that God is perfectly both. I believe that God justly rules over the "clay" in love. I also believe that it is true that since all have sinned, all are justly condemned, and it is strictly by mercy and grace that a way of forgiveness has been made for us, and offered to all men. From this perspective, it is amazing that anyone is saved, not that many are condemned. The current permissive spiritual atmosphere rather overplays grace rather than to keep a balance with the facts of what we all really deserve. I do not want to be guilty of interpolating a humanistic idea of "fairness" upon the Almighty!! The thread should be making us all think and pray a little harder.

[Izzel]

The bible clearly says that God said that He will harden pharoah heart and When the bible says Pharoah harden his heart it was a result of what God said and already done 

 

Who can say to God what doesth thou 

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

The Bible says that we have a choice John 3:16.The Bible never describes God rejecting anyone who believes in Him.God predestines who will be saved and we must choose Christ in order to be saved.It works hand-in-hand.Both facts are true.

The Bible NEVER says that God predestines who will be saved, not a single verse anywhere to support that.

 

God knows before we are born who will choose Him.

 

Yes, but knowing who will accept Him and controlling who will receive Him are not the same thing.   Knowing the future doesn't mean you are determining the future.  God knows who will choose Him, but the Bible NEVER says God picks who will choose Him.

[missmuffet]

 

 

 

The Bible says that we have a choice John 3:16.The Bible never describes God rejecting anyone who believes in Him.God predestines who will be saved and we must choose Christ in order to be saved.It works hand-in-hand.Both facts are true.

The Bible NEVER says that God predestines who will be saved, not a single verse anywhere to support that.

 

God knows before we are born who will choose Him.

 

Yes, but knowing who will accept Him and controlling who will receive Him are not the same thing.   Knowing the future doesn't mean you are determining the future.  God knows who will choose Him, but the Bible NEVER says God picks who will choose Him.

 

I did not say that God only picks a few who will go to Heaven even though they are believers.That would not be fair and God is far from that.

[Izzel]

 

 

 

Was Pharoh predestined and did he make a choice to repent

Pharoah was used by God. He was not predestined to do what he did.   God hardened Pharoah's heart AFTER Pharoah hardened his own heart ...

 

 

I recall several verses in Exodus where Pharaoh is said to harden his own heart as well as an equal number of verses that states God hardened Pharaoh's heart, yet there was no attempt to reconcile the two views.

This seems to suggest the two do "co-exist and intersect" in ways a Western mindset perhaps doesn't fully comprehend.

Perhaps the idea of "He gave them over" in Rom 1 brings light here. Both are true, so both are written.

 

OK, but God stepping aside by withdrawing His grace -- or simply leaving sinners to their own devices -- is much more passive an act than actually hardening someone's heart, regardless of who does what first.

Exodus 7:3

But I shall harden his heart, and shall multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt ...

Exodus 14:4

And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, and the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD ...

Then there's Exodus 9:16 and Romans 9:17 where God both raises up Pharaoh and hardens his heart for His glory.

See "Why did God harden Pharaoh’s heart?"

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aiia/aiia-pharaoh.html

 

I do not have a problem with that God facilitates and uses the decisions and inclinations of hearts for His own glory. As has been said in the thread, it is crystal clear that God's general will is "for NONE to perish, but for ALL to come to repentance". To me, this strictly rules out the possibility of God Specifically forcing a man into rebellion, like a puppet master. However, God knows all things, including the future, and the true motivations and desires of every heart, therefore He is not unjust to use this foreknowledge to His advantage and glorification in the earth. It is a delicate balance to be completely loving and merciful, yet completely just in judgement at the same time, but I completely believe that God is perfectly both. I believe that God justly rules over the "clay" in love. I also believe that it is true that since all have sinned, all are justly condemned, and it is strictly by mercy and grace that a way of forgiveness has been made for us, and offered to all men. From this perspective, it is amazing that anyone is saved, not that many are condemned. The current permissive spiritual atmosphere rather overplays grace rather than to keep a balance with the facts of what we all really deserve. I do not want to be guilty of interpolating a humanistic idea of "fairness" upon the Almighty!! The thread should be making us all think and pray a little harder.

 

Have not the Potter power  to make a vessel for honour and dishounour ?

 

Men make weapons for some use it for good some for evil 

[Izzel]

 

 

 

 

The Bible says that we have a choice John 3:16.The Bible never describes God rejecting anyone who believes in Him.God predestines who will be saved and we must choose Christ in order to be saved.It works hand-in-hand.Both facts are true.

The Bible NEVER says that God predestines who will be saved, not a single verse anywhere to support that.

 

God knows before we are born who will choose Him.

 

Yes, but knowing who will accept Him and controlling who will receive Him are not the same thing.   Knowing the future doesn't mean you are determining the future.  God knows who will choose Him, but the Bible NEVER says God picks who will choose Him.

 

I did not say that God only picks a few who will go to Heaven even though they are believers.That would not be fair and God is far from that.

 

please shew where in the bible says we shall go to heaven thanks ?

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

 

 

The Bible says that we have a choice John 3:16.The Bible never describes God rejecting anyone who believes in Him.God predestines who will be saved and we must choose Christ in order to be saved.It works hand-in-hand.Both facts are true.

The Bible NEVER says that God predestines who will be saved, not a single verse anywhere to support that.

 

God knows before we are born who will choose Him.

 

Yes, but knowing who will accept Him and controlling who will receive Him are not the same thing.   Knowing the future doesn't mean you are determining the future.  God knows who will choose Him, but the Bible NEVER says God picks who will choose Him.

 

I did not say that God only picks a few who will go to Heaven even though they are believers.That would not be fair and God is far from that.

 

I didn't accuse you of saying that.   I am saying that God doesn't predestine who will or will not be saved.   The Bible never says that God predestines who will be saved. 

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

 

 

 

The Bible says that we have a choice John 3:16.The Bible never describes God rejecting anyone who believes in Him.God predestines who will be saved and we must choose Christ in order to be saved.It works hand-in-hand.Both facts are true.

The Bible NEVER says that God predestines who will be saved, not a single verse anywhere to support that.

 

God knows before we are born who will choose Him.

 

Yes, but knowing who will accept Him and controlling who will receive Him are not the same thing.   Knowing the future doesn't mean you are determining the future.  God knows who will choose Him, but the Bible NEVER says God picks who will choose Him.

 

I did not say that God only picks a few who will go to Heaven even though they are believers.That would not be fair and God is far from that.

 

please shew where in the bible says we shall go to heaven thanks ?

 

Izzel that is a topic for another thread. 

[Openly Curious]

 

Simply put, before the foundation of the world, God already the plan of salvation figured out.  And in that plan, He chose for Christians to be holy and blameless before Him in love and in doing so He predestined (chose beforehand) us to the adoption as sons.

 

Ok, I see what you're saying. When you say chose beforehand (Eph 1:4), before the foundation of the world..God is talking about how he chose people/humanity in general to be together with Christ. In this instance God is specifically talking about salvation and the bridge to salvation. He chose for Christians to be holy and blameless, but it's up to the nonbeliever to BECOME a christian by repenting. Am I close?