Predestination vs free choice

[Openly Curious]

 

 

Simply put, before the foundation of the world, God already the plan of salvation figured out.  And in that plan, He chose for Christians to be holy and blameless before Him in love and in doing so He predestined (chose beforehand) us to the adoption as sons.

 

Ok, I see what you're saying. When you say chose beforehand (Eph 1:4), before the foundation of the world..God is talking about how he chose people/humanity in general to be together with Christ. In this instance God is specifically talking about salvation and the bridge to salvation. He chose for Christians to be holy and blameless, but it's up to the nonbeliever to BECOME a christian by repenting. Am I close?

 

;Yes.   God does not choose who will or will not be saved.    He has chosen or predestinated what Christians will become AFTER they are saved.  He has a goal for Christians that He set in place before the foundation of the world.

 

Every place that predestination is used in the Bible, it is always connected to God's plans for believers and their service in Him.  It is NEVER used  in connection with who can or or cannot be saved.

 

Yes I agree God has chosen or predestinated what Christians will become AFTER they are saved. 

[Openly Curious]

The Bible says that we have a choice John 3:16.The Bible never describes God rejecting anyone who believes in Him.God predestines who will be saved and we must choose Christ in order to be saved.It works hand-in-hand.Both facts are true.

The Bible NEVER says that God predestines who will be saved, not a single verse anywhere to support that.

No, I have not found it taught in the scripture that some are predestined to heaven and some to hell. I've found no scriptural support in that line of doctrine.

[educatexan]

To build on ajchurney's excellent statement: God exists outside of what we call space and time.  John 8:58 > Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."  God knows our future because He's already there.  All of time is "now" to Him.  Our destiny is our own choice, not His.  

[Guest]

We also have Romans 8:28-30 that speaks to predestination.

 

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

The steps, or explanations is:

1. foreknew
2. predestined
3. conformed
4. called
5. justified
6. glorified

It is interesting to see Paul point out that God first foreknew before He predestined.  I do not believe God just picked and chose people, I believe He looked down through time to see who would choose His salvation; therefore, He foreknew before He predestined.

I think if you were to look at the usage of the idea of foreknowledge as it is actually used in the overall context of scripture, and the definitions in the original language, you might tend to conclude the the biblical idea of foreknowledge is not so much seeing the future, as it is having intimacy. Adam knew Eve - not a comment on his being equated with her, but a statement of intimate relationship. For knowledge is God, having intimacy, knowing us deeply in eternity - that is my opinion.

 

In anycase, if God simply understands ahead of time, who would respond to His call, and then chooses us, it seems to me that puts salvation into our own hands, and not in the grace of God through faith - it is suddenly in some sense, of ourselves that we could boast.

 

The bible presents it as being God's work, and no one responds without His drawing, his making the message known, His opening of our ears and eyes, and softening of our hearts, and even His giving of faith to us, it is all Him and none us, 

 

Romans 3:

 

10as it is written,

            “THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

      11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,

            THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

      12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;

            THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,

            THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”

[OneLight]

 

We also have Romans 8:28-30 that speaks to predestination.

 

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

The steps, or explanations is:

• foreknew
• predestined
• conformed
• called
• justified
• glorified

It is interesting to see Paul point out that God first foreknew before He predestined.  I do not believe God just picked and chose people, I believe He looked down through time to see who would choose His salvation; therefore, He foreknew before He predestined.

 

 

I think if you were to look at the usage of the idea of foreknowledge as it is actually used in the overall context of scripture, and the definitions in the original language, you might tend to conclude the the biblical idea of foreknowledge is not so much seeing the future, as it is having intimacy. Adam knew Eve - not a comment on his being equated with her, but a statement of intimate relationship. For knowledge is God, having intimacy, knowing us deeply in eternity - that is my opinion.

 

In anycase, if God simply understands ahead of time, who would respond to His call, and then chooses us, it seems to me that puts salvation into our own hands, and not in the grace of God through faith - it is suddenly in some sense, of ourselves that we could boast.

 

The bible presents it as being God's work, and no one responds without His drawing, his making the message known, His opening of our ears and eyes, and softening of our hearts, and even His giving of faith to us, it is all Him and none us, 

 

Romans 3:

 

¹⁰as it is written,

“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

¹¹THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,

THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

¹²ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;

THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,

THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”

 

 

Not really, Brother.  God makes himself known to men , yet it is up to us to accept Him.  Though we may not seek after Him, as scripture tells us in the verses you quote, He does reveal Himself to everyone.

 

Romans 1:18-21

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

In the Greek, foreknowledge is προγινώσκω - proginōskō - G4267 where the basics of the word is to know beforehand, i.e. foresee.  KJV uses the word to mean foreknow (ordain), know (before).  Digging a little deeper, the dictionary states:

• Used of persons, to foreknow with approbation, to foreapprove or make a previous choice or, as special people.
• In Rom. 8:29, in relation to believers, proginōskō occurs with the verb proorizō , to predestinate.  Foreknowledge and foreordination are logically coordinate. The former emphasizes the exercise of God's wisdom and intelligence in regard to His eternal purpose and the latter emphasizes the exercise of God's will in regard to it.  What He has decreed is what He has decided.  This foreknowledge and foreordination is the Scripture are always unto salvation and not unto perdition.  Therefore, it should be said that the Lord never foreordains someone to be lost.  Rather, He foreordains unto salvation those whom He specially considered and chose in eternity past.

In the description above, the only way this would make any sense at all is for God to allow free will to choose, since God never foreordains someone to be lost.

 

Note: the dictionary used is The Compete Word Study Dictionary edited by Spiros Zodhiates, Th. D. and published by AMG publishers - ISBN o-89957-663-X