PRE-TRIBBERS Please Explain

[ARGOSY]

I have never understood the pre-trib position on these two chapters. To me they both indicate that the rapture occurs at the second coming after a time of trouble, I would just like pre-tribbers to explain how they interpret the texts. I generally believe the bible is better understood taking the more obvious reading of the text because it wasn't written for rocket scientists and Greek scholars, and so I'm really interested what you have to say:

This seems to be saying that pre-trib believers will get their relief/rest at the second coming on a day of vengeance and punishment for the ungodly:

2 Thess 1

we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe

This seems to be saying that gathering of pre-trib believers and the second coming are the same day of Christ, and only occur after the man of sin is revealed:

2 Thess 2

concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

What say you pre-tribbers on these two chapters?

[Izzel]

Those that  with that adhere to  the  Secret Rapture doctrine describes  it as The Great Escape from the Great Tribulation at the End of This Age. It is a very comforting doctrine and  many hold on to it. Many believe that Jesus will secretly come and 'Rapture' His Church out of the Earth and take them back with Him to Heaven, either before the Tribulation (Pre-Tribulation Rapture), or half way through the Tribulation, the final three and a half years (Mid-Tribulation Rapture).

 

They believe that they will escape all the evils and horrors of the Tribulation, the Anti-Christ mark of the beast system, the plagues of God, the time of war and destruction on the Earth. In Heaven they enjoy the marriage supper of the Lamb with Jesus while those left on the Earth, who are saved during the Tribulation have to endure all the trials and suffering to the very end of the Tribulation.

 

After the Tribulation Jesus then comes back with His Saints, resurrects the remnant of His Church and they all reign with Him on the Earth   or in heaven This is still to be debated  for a thousand years. The fact is, that those who hold on to this belief will not be ready for what is to come upon them. They will not be ready because they have believed in a lie. The Beast system is unfolding before our very eyes and we are still hear! We have not been Raptured!

 

Thus they will take the mark of the beast and not know it 

[Montana Marv]

I will give input later today.

 

One reason why I do not believe in the post-trib theory is: Rev 9:20 - The rest of mankind (the 2/3's not killed by the plagues of v.18) STILL did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop (continued on) worshiping demons, and idols....... Nor did they repent of v.21...

 

If one can say they are not of this 2/3's who remain, then they died in the plagues of the 6th Trumpet or they were removed beforehand.  Not a pretty picture continuing to worshiping demons and idols as Scripture says.  And yet many of these die at Armageddon.  Post Tribber's what do you think?  "The Rest of Mankind" continued to worship demons and idols.  Think about it; even those of Israel who are considered "the elect" and the 144,000 from Israel.  Why do you think that Christ needs to rule with a "rod of iron" during the Mill?  Because of demon and idol worship.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Izzel]

I will give input later today.

 

One reason why I do not believe in the post-trib theory is: Rev 9:20 - The rest of mankind (the 2/3's not killed by the plagues of v.18) STILL did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop (continued on) worshiping demons, and idols....... Nor did they repent of v.21...

 

If one can say they are not of this 2/3's who remain, then they died in the plagues of the 6th Trumpet or they were removed beforehand.  Not a pretty picture continuing to worshiping demons and idols as Scripture says.  And yet many of these die at Armageddon.  Post Tribber's what do you think?  "The Rest of Mankind" continued to worship demons and idols.  Think about it; even those of Israel who are considered "the elect" and the 144,000 from Israel.  Why do you think that Christ needs to rule with a "rod of iron" during the Mill?  Because of demon and idol worship.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

2/3 Mankind there refers to the wicked  would you agree because the elect are on earth ?

 

The elect cannot be included in this   

[Izzel]

The Lord Jesus Christ will come at the seventh  trumpet   Here is what the apostle Paul wrote: “Behold, I tell you a mystery:  We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed – in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.  For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” (1 Cor. 15:51-52)  “And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” (Mt. 24:31)

 

 There are seven trumpets mentioned in the Book of Revelation (Rev. 8:6).  From the first trumpet to the seventh trumpet the earth will be undergoing the Great Tribulation (Rev. 8:7-13; 9:1-21). “Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, ‘The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” (Rev. 11:15)

 

Thus Jesus comes at the seventh trump with the last trump to resurrect the saints etc 

[Montana Marv]

Izzel

 

Yet, the last 3 Trumpet blasts are all Woe's to those who live on the earth  Rev 8:13b -  Woe, Woe, Woe, to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the other three angels.  I see a Woe zone ahead.  To the inhabitants of the earth.  Not some, but all the inhabitants.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Izzel]

Izzel

 

Yet, the last 3 Trumpet blasts are all Woe's to those who live on the earth  Rev 8:13b -  Woe, Woe, Woe, to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the other three angels.  I see a Woe zone ahead.  To the inhabitants of the earth.  Not some, but all the inhabitants.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

Are the saints there during this time ?

[missmuffet]

 

Izzel

 

Yet, the last 3 Trumpet blasts are all Woe's to those who live on the earth  Rev 8:13b -  Woe, Woe, Woe, to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the other three angels.  I see a Woe zone ahead.  To the inhabitants of the earth.  Not some, but all the inhabitants.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

Are the saints there during this time ?

 

No the believers who went in the rapture are the Saints.They are in heaven.

[missmuffet]

Those who are in Christ are not under condemnation and will never experience the wrath of God Romans 8:1.What about explaining the absence of the word "church" in all the biblical passages related to the tribulation.In Revelation 4-21 the word church never appears.

[Izzel]

Those who are in Christ are not under condemnation and will never experience the wrath of God Romans 8:1.What about explaining the absence of the word "church" in all the biblical passages related to the tribulation.In Revelation 4-21 the word church never appears.

 When the bible says we shall experience the wrath of God it means we will not be plagued 

 

Do earthquake, famine  and storms  happen are they for the righteous or the wicked 

 

Where are righteous people at this time