PRE-TRIBBERS Please Explain

[Enoch2021]

By the way, I have enjoyed the dialogue here, especially between thunder and Enoch. You guys can also be pretty funny, besides being pretty sharp in your debates.

Also, hinds feet is coming on in his presentation skills. I guess it took a loss of a job to bring out the best in him. (Bad humor)

But the guy I love to really read in Marvelous Marv. I love his to the point no nonsense answers, even if I don't always agree, I love his style. I also love how he doesn't break up the quotes. This can get very tedious to read (hint to my dear friend, Enoch).

Anyhow, I appreciate all my brothers and sisters here. Thanks for sharing.

Spock out

 

 

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Well I like to be thorough and make sure to Summarily Refute Each Specifically...it's part of my charm lol.

[rollinTHUNDER]

Hey thunder,

What do you think that sign of the Son of Man in Heaven is, that will cause the tribes to mourn? A menorah or something distinctively Jewish?

Hey Spockster, long time no see!

It will be an awesome appearing!

For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be (Matt.24:27).

Or maybe like someone turning on a light in a dark room? We can only imagine, but then He will send the angels to gather His elect (rapture).

Cheers

[Enoch2021]

 

Hey thunder,

What do you think that sign of the Son of Man in Heaven is, that will cause the tribes to mourn? A menorah or something distinctively Jewish?

Hey Spockster, long time no see!

It will be an awesome appearing!

For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be (Matt.24:27).

Or maybe like someone turning on a light in a dark room? We can only imagine, but then He will send the angels to gather His elect (rapture).

Cheers

 

 

 

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He's not sending any Angels to gather the Church....he's doing it Personally:

 

(1 Thessalonians 4:17) "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

 

Can you show me where the Angels are in this passage?

[Guest P_W]

I have a question for anyone who thinks they might have the answer.  I have been reading this thread tonight and nothing is mentioned about the difference in the manner in which Christ does return.  At least I did not see the answer I am looking for, but this is quite a long thread and I may have overlooked any reference to the manner in which Christ returns.  My apologies if I did miss any comments on this.

 

This is for both sides of the issue, pre-trib rapture and post trib.  I would really appreciate it if anyone can explain the differences, as well as some other key points.

 

To me, there appears to be a significant difference in how the "catching away" is described and specifically, the way Jesus comes to gather together His church/bride.

 

I will use two Scriptures only at this time and they are 1 Thessalonians 4 and Revelation 19.  Revelation describes the "2nd coming" as this;

 

The Coming of Christ

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and inrighteousness He judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.

 

1 Thessalonians 4 account is much different;

 

 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

These two accounts are said to be the same event by those who believe in a post-trib rapture, correct?  So, will those of you who do believe this way please explain the differences?

 

As for the pre-trib crowd, I understand Thessalonians is describing the rapture or catching away only, and Revelation is describing the second coming.  This is understood to be two separate events, not to be confused with two "second comings", but the rapture first, then the second coming of Christ.

 

To add to this, Zechariah 14:4 describes Jesus as firmly planting His feet upon the Mount of Olives.  So, again, there is a difference in description.

 

Any help will be appreciated.  Other differences described, Jesus on the white horse with His army riding their horses as well, and His feet upon the Mt. of Olives, etc. are also of interest to me.

 

Shalom, PrairWarur

[Montana Marv]

The Bridegroom comes for His Bride, without any help from angels.  The Bride is composed of only those NT Believers indwelt by the HS.  That leaves out the OT saints, those of Israel, those tribulation saints, those who did not take the mark of the beast.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Enoch2021]

By the way, I have enjoyed the dialogue here, especially between thunder and Enoch. You guys can also be pretty funny, besides being pretty sharp in your debates.

Also, hinds feet is coming on in his presentation skills. I guess it took a loss of a job to bring out the best in him. (Bad humor)

But the guy I love to really read in Marvelous Marv. I love his to the point no nonsense answers, even if I don't always agree, I love his style. I also love how he doesn't break up the quotes. This can get very tedious to read (hint to my dear friend, Enoch).

Anyhow, I appreciate all my brothers and sisters here. Thanks for sharing.

Spock out

 

 

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Hey Spock,

 

Check this one......

 

"TYPE":

 

Lets take a Look @ another One...............Joshua vs Revelation:

Joshua is a variant name for Jesus.

Joshua is a Military Commander dispossessing the Land of Usurpers on behalf of the People of GOD.

7 Year Campaign; against, 7 of an Original 10 Nations.

Torah and Sabbaths Ignored @ Jericho.

2 Spy's.........2 Witnesses.

Rahab is Saved:   (Gentile Woman)

Seven Trumpet Events Preceded by "Silence in Heaven for 1/2 Hour".

7 Kings are confederated under Adoni-Zedek "Lord of Righteousness"

Ultimately defeated by Hailstones and Fire from Heaven. 

 

Signs in the Sun and Moon.

The Kings hide in caves:  "Rocks fall on us" (See: Rev 6)

 

 

Whats that Look Like  :rolleyes:        Just a coincidence?? 

 

 

 

** Also who fought the Battle of Jericho?   Not Joshua.....

 

(Joshua 5:13-15) "And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?  {14} And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?  {15} And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so."

 

Joshua heard that phrase about taking off his shoes before!!  Where?

[rollinTHUNDER]

The Bridegroom comes for His Bride, without any help from angels.  The Bride is composed of only those NT Believers indwelt by the HS.  That leaves out the OT saints, those of Israel, those tribulation saints, those who did not take the mark of the beast.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

I don't think so, Marv.

 

Check out this little snap shot of the wedding supper?

Matthew 8:10-12

When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

 

Cheers

[Enoch2021]

 

 

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To me, there appears to be a significant difference in how the "catching away" is described and specifically, the way Jesus comes to gather together His church/bride.

 

The Coming of Christ

 

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and inrighteousness He judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.

 

 

 

This isn't the "Catching Away"  This is Post Marriage/Marriage Supper......

 

(Revelation 19:7-11) "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.  {8} And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.  {9} And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.  {10} And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.  {11} And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war."

 

Who is the "Wife"......."The Church":

 

(Ephesians 5:31-32) "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.  {32} This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church."

 

(2 Corinthians 11:2) "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."

 

 

The "Catching Away" was prior to Rev Chapter 4 and Prior to the 70th Week of Daniel.......

 

 

 

The 70th Week of Daniel:

 

We are currently in the Interval between the 69th Week and the 70th week.

 

First the 69th week:

 

(Daniel 9:26-27) "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

 

"Messiah be cut off": This means Executed....the Crucifixion.

 

"shall destroy the city and the sanctuary" :  This is the Fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD

 

THIS STARTS THE 70TH WEEK.....

 

{27} And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

 

For him (anti-christ) to confirm a covenant he MUST BE KNOWN PUBLICLY,  RIGHT?

 

Well....(2 Thessalonians 2:3-9) "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;  {4} Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.  {5} Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?  {6} And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.  {7} For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.  {8} And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:  {9} Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,"

 

For him to be revealed, the "RESTRAINER" must be removed!! The "Restrainer" is The Holy Spirit and was given to the Body of Christ after Christ left.

 

(John 14:16) " And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;"

 

(John 14:26) " But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

 

(John 16:7) " Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."

 

Jesus had to Leave for the "Comforter to Come".  Who did he give it to......"The Church".  It appears from John, that they (Jesus and the Comforter) can't be in the same place @ once.

 

There is absolutely NO WAY the Comforter/RESTRAINER LEAVES THE CHURCH......HE'S THE EMBODIMENT OF IT!!!!!!

 

 

As for the pre-trib crowd, I understand Thessalonians is describing the rapture or catching away only, and Revelation is describing the second coming.  This is understood to be two separate events, not to be confused with two "second comings", but the rapture first, then the second coming of Christ.

 

To add to this, Zechariah 14:4 describes Jesus as firmly planting His feet upon the Mount of Olives.  So, again, there is a difference in description.

 

 

Yes, because they're 2 different/separate events....  The "Church" isn't in Israel,  The Church is "Born Again Christians".

[Enoch2021]

 

The Bridegroom comes for His Bride, without any help from angels.  The Bride is composed of only those NT Believers indwelt by the HS.  That leaves out the OT saints, those of Israel, those tribulation saints, those who did not take the mark of the beast.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

I don't think so, Marv.

 

Check out this little snap shot of the wedding supper?

Matthew 8:10-12

When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

 

Cheers

 

 

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That isn't a Wedding Supper!!  Where did you get such a Thought?

 

 

Matthew is Jewish and His Whole Gospel is Heavily Jewish. 

 

The Jews aren't Christ's Bride, THE CHURCH is Christ's Bride....

 

(Ephesians 5:31-32) "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.  {32} This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church."

 

(2 Corinthians 11:2) "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."

 

The Jews are Blinded until The Church is Full...

 

(Romans 11:25) "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

[Guest P_W]

Perhaps I did not word that well, for I do understand the "catching away" or rapture is described in 1 Thessalonians 4.  And, the second coming in Revelation 19.

 

My questions were more specifically about the descriptions of what is said to be "one event" but they are so different.

 

From your answer, which I thank you, it appears you are in the pre-trib rapture camp, Enoch?

 

Peace to you, 

Prair