PRE-TRIBBERS Please Explain

[Izzel]

 

 

Izzel

 

Scripture please.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

you know the scripture and the beast out of the earth is america 

 

So is American thrown alive into the Lake of Fire (which is for Satan and his angels and those people not in the Lambs Book of Life.  I hope you are not living in America at that time.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

i hope i am still living there because the blood of the lamb is protection 

 

The whole of america well what can i say if you say so but i know the lake of fire is for wicked angels and people 

[Montana Marv]

Izzel

 

America is not mentioned in Scripture.  It is not the beast from out of the earth.  You have no Biblical Support.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[rollinTHUNDER]

Thunder

 

Neither.

 

The beast coming up out of the sea is a kingdom with ten horns (leaders).  One of these leaders or more are killed by a sword.  One of these individuals that is wound is healed and be becomes alive again (type of resurrection), this is the A/C.  .  The beast out of the earth is the False Prophet,  He is not the A/C

Congratulations, Marv. I believe you are correct. Neither of the beast's are the antichrist, even though many believe the first one is. However, the beast has seven heads, which are kingdoms or empires, one of which receives a fatal wound. Many have been waiting for the revival of the ancient Roman Empire, which I believe fits the resurrection better than a man. This is not to say that these empires don't have men leading them, because actually, they have had more than one leader usually, when the empire ran for hundreds of years the leadership changed hands. The final head of the beast (empire) will be resurrected and it will have ten horns (kings) as the world will be divided into ten global regions. A little horn (prince) will rise up among the ten and subdue three of them. He will be the son of perdition/man of sin. Many assume he is also the antichrist, and some take it even further claiming he is the beast. But I can't find any scriptures that mention a single antichrist dictator that will come on the scene at the time of the end. Scripture says that antichrist is the spirit of all unbelievers, so there are many antichrist's, more than believers.

 

Further in Rev we see the beast and the false prophet (both of which are later thrown alive into the Lake of Fire) and the Dragon (Satan) calling for the armies of the earth to battle Christ at Armageddon.  When did Satan come the scene?  Possibly the white horse of the 1st Seal.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

I try not to read too much into these symbols. The beast is the final resurrected kingdom, which probably includes everyone that takes the mark of the beast as well, just as most of the one's who refuse the mark are in the kingdom of light. Satan has been active from the beginning, as the prince of darkness and the father of lies.

Cheers

[rollinTHUNDER]

Thunder

 

My Scriptures were on both sides of the A/D:  Rev 13 all in the first half of the week. One beast comes out of the "sea", which had ten horns (this is an empire or kingdom).  One of the heads (leader/human, yet also called a beast) of the beast (empire) had a fatal wound by a sword an yet lived (v.3 and 14b).  The whole world was astonished and followed the beast (with the fatal wound).  This indicates a time of peace, for all follow.  Israel lives in peace at this time. 

 

example; when your children follow your instructions there is peace in the house (they my not like the instructions), but they follow them.  Then what happens when they do not follow your instructions, some form of chaos develops (a butting of heads, go to your room or a spanking).  This will be like those who do not accept the mark (a butting of heads) and followed by discipline which is (Captivity - [go to your bedroom] or being killed by the sword - spanking (Rev 12:1

 

The thing is those who do not accept the mark will consist of two groups; First being the tribulations saints, most who are killed by the sword - many being beheaded, Secondly being non saints, those of which will be ushered into the Mill, all of this group would have gone into captivity.

 

This first part of the example is the environment during the first half the the 70th week.  A prime time to issue the mark of the beast to be able to buy and sell.  Yet when the Second Seal is opened peace is taken from the earth.

 

This is why I say the 2nd Seal is definitely after the A/D.  A collapse of the structure of the first half of the 70th week.  It becomes a free for all.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

PS  What assumptions will you give us.

A confirming of a covenant for 7 years does not create a kingdom or empire, nor would it cause everyone to follow and/or worship him.

Let me ask you this: We have two beast's, one coming out of the sea and the other coming out of the earth, are one of these the antichrist? If so, which one, and why?

Cheers

Who is a Anti Christ ?

 

Therefore both are antichrist 

Antichrist is the spirit of unbelievers.

[ARGOSY]

Back to the two scriptures in the opening post.

1) Has any pre-tribber got a clear explanation why those persecuted pretrib believers in chapter one only receive their relief at the second coming , on a day of fire and wrath?

2) Has any pre-tribber got a clear explanation why those pre-trib believers in chapter two are only gathered AFTER the revealing of the antichrist?

Anyone?

[ARGOSY]

Those that  with that adhere to  the  Secret Rapture doctrine describes  it as The Great Escape from the Great Tribulation at the End of This Age. It is a very comforting doctrine and  many hold on to it. Many believe that Jesus will secretly come and 'Rapture' His Church out of the Earth and take them back with Him to Heaven, either before the Tribulation (Pre-Tribulation Rapture), or half way through the Tribulation, the final three and a half years (Mid-Tribulation Rapture).

 

They believe that they will escape all the evils and horrors of the Tribulation, the Anti-Christ mark of the beast system, the plagues of God, the time of war and destruction on the Earth. In Heaven they enjoy the marriage supper of the Lamb with Jesus while those left on the Earth, who are saved during the Tribulation have to endure all the trials and suffering to the very end of the Tribulation.

 

After the Tribulation Jesus then comes back with His Saints, resurrects the remnant of His Church and they all reign with Him on the Earth   or in heaven This is still to be debated  for a thousand years. The fact is, that those who hold on to this belief will not be ready for what is to come upon them. They will not be ready because they have believed in a lie. The Beast system is unfolding before our very eyes and we are still hear! We have not been Raptured!

 

Thus they will take the mark of the beast and not know it

Hi Izzel. You have put forward many strong arguments against the pre-trib position, and I appreciate the support in this regard. I feel most of our pre-trib brethren are true believers and once they overcome the disappointment of not escaping the tribulation they will be faithful to Christ unto death or unto the second coming and little doubt concerning their salvation. My only concern is that they would be better prepared and less susceptible to disappointment/falling away if they understand that we are to go through the tribulation.

[Hindsfeet]

I believe that the 'pre-tribbers' would actually become a quite a Sounding Voice for the Messiah once the trib starts and we were all still here. My question would be - Would the 'post-tribbers' turn them away or welcome them and share if they were in need of food/shelter/care, because they were so 'misguided'/blind faith?

[Montana Marv]

 

I will give input later today.

 

One reason why I do not believe in the post-trib theory is: Rev 9:20 - The rest of mankind (the 2/3's not killed by the plagues of v.18) STILL did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop (continued on) worshiping demons, and idols....... Nor did they repent of v.21...

 

If one can say they are not of this 2/3's who remain, then they died in the plagues of the 6th Trumpet or they were removed beforehand.  Not a pretty picture continuing to worshiping demons and idols as Scripture says.  And yet many of these die at Armageddon.  Post Tribber's what do you think?  "The Rest of Mankind" continued to worship demons and idols.  Think about it; even those of Israel who are considered "the elect" and the 144,000 from Israel.  Why do you think that Christ needs to rule with a "rod of iron" during the Mill?  Because of demon and idol worship.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

2/3 Mankind there refers to the wicked  would you agree because the elect are on earth ?

 

The elect cannot be included in this   

 

Izzel

 

Oh yes they can.

 

Were you part of the elect before you became a believer?

 

Rom 11:28, 29 - As far a the gospel is concerned, they (Israel) are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

 

Would you renounce Jesus if say your wife was killed in front of you, then the question was asked fifteen more times and the rest of your children and brothers and sisters were then killed in front of you.  For this has already happened.  I believe in China.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[ARGOSY]

I believe that the 'pre-tribbers' would actually become a quite a Sounding Voice for the Messiah once the trib starts and we were all still here. My question would be - Would the 'post-tribbers' turn them away or welcome them and share if they were in need of food/shelter/care, because they were so 'misguided'/blind faith?

I don't think there's much of a gap between pre and post in the body of Christ. This gap only appears in internet forums like this, but in general both groups are worshipping together every week. In church life doctrines like this are very insignificant, we are all brothers in Christ.

To answer your question clearly, I think we will all support eachother like bloodbrothers even if we have to die to protect eachother. We are brothers in Christ, our eschatology is meaningless in the face of persecution and the big picture of love in the church.

[Enoch2021]

2 Thess 1

2 Thess 2

What say you pre-tribbers on these two chapters?

 

====================================================================================

 

Good Points and require much further study on my part.

 

However, I think a better question is; what say you with this...

 

First, What is the Purpose of Tribulation?  ....(Hosea 5:15) "I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."

 

 

So the purpose, is to push the Jews to the Wall and have them "Corporately" Petition the LORD to Return.  If you notice, every thing after Rev Chapter 4 is "Heavily Jewish".

 

Also throughout Scripture there is a definite differentiation between Israel and The "Church" and both with different destinies.

 

The Church is not appointed for GOD's Wrath.....(1 Thessalonians 5:9) "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"  and (Revelation 3:10) " Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

 

The Rapture.....

 

OT References:

 

(Isaiah 26:20-21) "Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.  {21} For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain."

 

(Zephaniah 2:3) "Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger."

 

(Psalms 27:5) "For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock."

 

NT, Biggie: 

 

(1 Thessalonians 4:17) "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

 

 

This brings us to a very important Doctrine....The Doctrine of Imminence:

 

There is no proceeding event...and believers are taught to conduct their lives in a moment to moment expectancy of Our Coming KING; its all through the NT (Phil 3:20; Titus 2:13; Heb 9:28; 1 Thess 1:10; 4:18, 5:6, Rev 22:20), and here....

 

(Luke 12:40) " Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not."

 

Basically all positions (Mid-Trib, Pre-Wrath-Post Trib) besides Pre-Trib, must deny the Doctrine of Imminence.  Why?....

 

Anybody with even cursory knowledge of Scripture, especially Daniel and Revelation, Could basically set their watch @ the Abomination of Desolation.

 

There is also the 70th Week of Daniel that reveals the Tribulation and The GREAT TRIBULATION (The Last 3 1/2 Years) that Christ spoke of demarcated with the AoD.

 

 

**Another BIGGIE "TYPE"..... The "Church" is Christ's Bride.  Hence:

 

An understanding of a Jewish Wedding (Jesus and HIS Bride "The Church") should be reckoned with here, IMHO.....

 

The Ketubah, Betrothal

 

- Payment of the Purchase Price 

- Bride Set Apart (Sanctified)

 

- Bridegroom departs to Father's House

- Prepares a Room Addition

**  Bride Prepares for IMMINENT Return (But She does not know WHEN)

 

-  Surprise Gathering  (See example with the 10 Virgins Parable)

-  Grooms arrival is Proceeded by a SHOUT

 

- Wedding

- 7 Day Marriage Supper

 

What's that Look Like??  :rolleyes:   A Model, Maybe 

 

The Post Trib Rapture Model...... Come lets get Married; then, I'm gonna beat the Living Daylights out of You,  then lets go have Dinner. 

 

 

7 (Shocking surprise) "Raptures" in Scripture:

 

Enoch

Elijah

Jesus

Philip

Paul

Body of Christ

John (Rev 4:1)

 

Other "TYPES":

 

Enoch and The Flood of Noah.

Isaac's absence after his offer offering..... curiously, he's edited out of Scripture until 2 chapters later when he's United with His Bride.

Where was Ruth (Gentile Bride) during the Threshing Floor Scene?

Daniel's absence from the Fiery Furnace.

 

 

Post Trib Rapture Problems:

 

1.  Denies The Doctrine of Imminence.

2.  Requires the Church to be here During the 70th Week (Israel and The Church are Mutually Exclusive, Dan 9: 24).

3.  The Church experiences GOD'S Wrath.

4.  How can the Bride (Church) come with Jesus if she's not Raptured First?

5.  Who's going to populate the Millennium?

6.  Who are the "Sheep and Goat" Judgement?  (Matthew 25)

7.  How can the Virgin's of Matthew 25 buy oil without the mark of the beast?

 

 

Very Interesting:

 

The Seven Churches (The Seven Lampstands):  Identifies the Church Rev 1:20

 

They are on the Earth in Rev Chapter 1.  They are in Heaven when John Arrives Chapter 4:5

 

One Church Promised not to go into the Great Tribulation.

 

The 24 Elders

 

-  Identified as the Redeemed (Rev 5: 9,10)

-  only three are Identified as Kings and Priests (Melchizedek, Jesus, and the Redeemed......US )

- They worship the Lamb before he receives the Scroll

- Tribulation begins when the Scroll is Unsealed

 

 

Just some thoughts.