Can violence be justified?

[nebula]

I have no idea what I would actually do if I saw those things take place, but it seems like using violence against the attacker is not what the bible would want me to do. Perhaps there is an alternative to violence that would work. Or, perhaps we are to ignore what's happening.

 

Please explain to me how it is loving to a child for you to just ignore some guy raping her?

[other one]

So, I have meditated on some of the scripture that has been mentioned in this discussion. I now fully believe that no sin committed by another human being can justify the use of violence against them. "Do not judge others, so that you will not be judged" (Matthew 7:1) is very clearly written in the New Testament. So, how in the world could punching a guy in the face (or shooting him with a gun) possibly not be considered judging him?

By committing an act of violence, you are telling another human being "you are wrong, I am right." Can Christians claim that when you sin you become so much less of a person that all evil can be justified if used to stop you? "Never pay back evil with more evil. Do things in such a way that everyone can see you are honorable." (Romans 12:17).

To live in a way where you ask yourself, "what would I do if someone attacked my family?" makes it sound like you lack faith in the God of the universe who's love is infinite. There isn't a single thing that has ever happened in the world that God couldn't have stopped. Suffering is destined to come to those who sin, but Christians aren't called to take matters into their own hands. Remember what happened in Genesis chapter 19, the lord had plans to wipe out Sodom and Gomorrah. However, there was a righteous man living in Sodom and his name was Lot. Lot had been living in Sodom despite just how corrupt the citizens who surrounded him were. God sent 2 angles to Sodom. These angles were there to personally protect, warn and help Lot (as well as his family) escape Sodom. During the story, men from Sodom surround Lot's house while the angels are inside the house with Lot. These men get very angry and there are even threats of rape! Let us remember, that even though the house is surrounded by corrupt men who deserve destruction, neither God nor the angels told Lot to attack any of the men. Instead, the angels blinded all of the men. God can protect you no matter what, to say "I need a gun, or else God will allow my family members to get attacked right in front of me in such a way that I would wish that I had a gun." Sounds like a message that comes directly from the devil himself. Please take another look at the scripture in my original post. He who uses the sword will die by the sword. Not, he who lives by the sword will die by the sword.

Now, I must address all of the violence that was committed in the Old Testament by Christians for the sake of God. If a Christian killed a non-Christian in the bible (and the act wasn't condemned by God) then that means that God deliberately told that Christian to kill a specific person or group of people. Joshua was told by God to lead a violent military campaign against the Canaanites. This was God's will for Joshua, and God made it clear to Joshua that this was his will. God told Joshua that it was his duty to lead the Israelites in battle against the Canaanites. I want to make this point clear, unless God tells you to, you do not have his permission to kill or hurt anyone.

"But I must carry a Gun on me at all times. I cannot afford to drop my guard. If my Gun is at home and I am enjoying myself on vacation at the beach, then I have sinned by not being prepared to protect my family at this moment. Lord, please forgive me for not having an appropriate weapon on me at all times that I intend to use against my enemies." I do not endorse this way of thinking.

If you tell me, "I need to be armed at all times!" then I will ask you "Why? Do you find the armor of God to be in-adequate?"

To summarize all of my above points:

1. To commit violence against an enemy is to judge them, Matthew 7:1 tells us not to judge others.

2. Sin doesn't justify sin. Evil doesn't justify evil. "Darkness cannot drive out darkness, only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate, only love can do that." - Martin Luther King, Jr.

3. God will protect the righteous. (Genesis chapter 19, or look to Acts 7:54-60)

4. God never gave man the ability to decide when it was right to kill or not kill another human. Unless you get direct orders from God, you should not kill or harm another human being.

5. The armor of God is sufficient!

The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these. - (Mark 12:31).

If all that is true then why do bad things happen to good people....

Hmmm... I mean no offense, but your response sounds like that of an atheist. I have faith that the armor of God can and will protect me. Nothing that happens is outside of God's control. Bad things happen to God's children because God has deemed them worthy to suffer, Acts 5:41 "the apostles left the high council rejoicing that God had counted them worthy to suffer disgrace for the name of Jesus."

It seems that most arguments on this topic are related to "self-defense". Where in the Bible did you guys get this idea?

Most likely because it's the only reason we would use violence. When Jesus makes the comment that if we knew when the thief was going to break into our house we would stop him.... do you really think he ment to politely ask him to leave. When the money changers were at the temple selling did he politely ask them to leave...

I don't understand how anyone could stand by and watch the things you've been asked about here and look themselves in the mirror.

[OneLight]

To address OneLight, Love your neighbor as your self means to love the attacker as well as the victim. Your argument opened my eyes in the most wonderful way, If someone were attacking me I wouldn't want anyone to stop them! The lord allowed them to attack me, and I should be thankful that he has counted me worthy to suffer. If they kill me, then I will be re-united with my father in heaven.

You have so much to learn. I will grantee you that after you have been beaten to a point, you will do what you can to have it stopped. If you saw someone taking advantage of a defenseless person and do nothing, you are not what I would consider loving anyone but yourself.

[Taker]

A few years back my wife and I were at a church picnic, and a new member and his wife were there. A group of us were talking about this and that, and somehow the subject came up of what a man should do if another man attacked his wife. All of us said we would deal with the attacker in a way that would leave him unable to continue the attack ... all but this new guy.

 

He said, entirely straight-faced, "If that was me and my wife, I'd let the man attack her. It's God's will."

 

One of our group, a grizzled old retired Marine, said to him, astonished, "You mean you'd really stand there and the man attack, rape, and possibly kill your wife, and you'd do NOTHING?"

 

The new guy repeated, "Yep. It's God's will."

 

I stole a glance at his wife. Her face had gone pale, and tears filled her eyes. Then choking back a sob, she ran.

 

The Marine just shook his head at the new guy, and said, "Son, I think you and your wife are probably going to want some time alone to discuss this." The guy nodded and started off after her.

 

The old Marine then turned to me and said, "John, sometimes when a fella says he's a pacifist, it's really just a prettied-up way of saying he's yellow."

I have to admit, this post made me think about self-defense and preserving the life of the innocent and those you love. I'm not sure how not standing up to someone attacking my wife could be seen as God's work. If violence was necessary, I would probably beat the crap outta that guy on instinct. How could the Lord shame me for that?

 

I have some thinking to do.

[Guest LadyC]

just want to post this. and if anyone thinks the OT is irrelevant, remember that God is the same today yesterday and forever. there can be no mistake here that God is saying there is NO GUILT for someone who protects his home (and presumably his family) as long as it is done IN DEFENSE of your home (and presumably family). it becomes wrong if you go after him LATER.

 

Exodus 22:2-3 ESV / 11 helpful votes

If a thief is found breaking in and is struck so that he dies, there shall be no bloodguilt for him, but if the sun has risen on him, there shall be bloodguilt for him. He shall surely pay. If he has nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft.

[Guest LadyC]

Also. i believe protection is part of providing for one's family, is it not?

 

1 Timothy 5:8

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

[Guest LadyC]

just thought i'd share a few more... 

 

 

 

Psalm 82:4 Rescue the weak and needy; Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked. 

 

God EXPECTS us to act on behalf of those who are in danger of harm from someone else.

 

 

 

Proverbs 24:11 Deliver those who are drawn toward death, And hold back those stumbling to the slaughter.

 

If someone is about to be killed, it is our responsibility to protect and save them.

 

 

 

Ezekiel 33 "... 6 'But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, and the people are not warned, and a sword comes and takes a person from them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require from the watchman's hand.'

 

If we refuse to take responsibility and do what we can to protect them, then God holds US responsible for their death.

 

 

 

Luke 22:35-39 And He said to them, "When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?" So they said, "Nothing."  36Then He said to them, "But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.  37 "For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: 'And He was numbered with the transgressors.' For the things concerning Me have an end."  38 So they said, "Lord, look, here are two swords." And He said to them, "It is enough."  39 Coming out, He went to the Mount of Olives, as He was accustomed, and His disciples also followed Him.

 

Jesus instructs his disciples to purchase and carry swords, even though those who believe in Him lack nothing. Even though God is our refuge, He still expects us to be able and willing to act in defense of those who need defending.

 

 

Luke 22:49-53 (NAS) 49 And when those who were around Him saw what was going to happen, they said, "Lord, shall we strike with the sword?"  50 And a certain one of them struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his right ear.  51 But Jesus answered and said, "Stop! No more of this." And He touched his ear and healed him. 52 And Jesus said to the chief priests and officers of the temple and elders who had come against Him, "Have you come out with swords and clubs as against a robber?  53 "While I was with you daily in the temple, you did not lay hands on Me; but this hour and the power of darkness are yours."

 

Matthew 26:51-56   51 And suddenly, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword, struck the servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear.  52 But Jesus said to him, "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.  53 "Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?  54 "How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?"  55 In that hour Jesus said to the multitudes, "Have you come out, as against a robber, with swords and clubs to take Me? I sat daily with you, teaching in the temple, and you did not seize Me.  56 "But all this was done that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled."

 

in these two passages, yes, Jesus chastises his disciple (whom we always presume is peter although who it actually is is not specified here) for drawing the sword and cutting off an ear. this was one of the points brought up AGAINST the use of violence by someone earlier in this thread. but like i pointed out (to someone's offense), CONTEXT is everything. Jesus wasn't saying one should never use the sword at all. He was saying that HE is not defenseless. He makes the distinction here too, about swords being used in defense against thieves and robbers who are threatening your home (and presumably your family) being a separate issue from drawing a sword as an act of vengeance... because the cutting off of an ear was an act of impulsive anger.

 

i do hope this helps to clear up some of the confusion about what God allows, and even expects of us when we find ourselves or someone else in danger of imminent harm, and under what circumstances He allows the use of force.

[Hashe]

So many extreme examples are put up to say, this justifies violence.

Very little justifies violence. There is an argument for state violence, in the sense of a police force and an army, but that is a long way from saying therefore everybody should have a gun!

 

I will tell one story of a missionary I know, Art, who was working in an area controlled by drug lords. Art was out riding his bike when he came across someone heavily armed who wanted his bike. The man asked Art, are you alone. Now Art was with no person, but knew the Lord was with him. Art answered, 'no I'm not alone'. Then he saw a look of horror come across the man's face who then turn and left.

 

The reality is when God is very involved in your life and you are following his will for your life he will be with you. I would rather have God with me than a gun.

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Hashe...

     That is a beautiful story & I have heard many like it ,we serve an Almighty God!I heard a testimony of Art Blesset of when he was somewhere in the Middle East riding through a heavily patrolled militant area with about 4 others in a van,they were pulled over ,Blessit was the driver & removed from the van ,separated from the others (who could not see what was happening).......the armed men had blesset fall to his knees & one man put his gun to Blesset's head & Blesset does not remember anything after that point until he awoke,alone,on the ground?He got up & asked the others  what happened as he remembered  they were last inside the van being guarded  & prevented from exiting  & they said they heard a big commotion ,bodies slamming into the van,punching & slapping sounds  & then all of a sudden ,their armed guard took of running & then they looked outside & saw the men getting up from the ground ,looking beaten & bruised & they all took off running ,while Art Blesset appeared to be asleep on the ground.There was no one else around for miles

       There is no doubt in my mind that we serve a very Mighty God that can do ANYTHING & can send an army of angels to protect us anytime He Wills but as He says so in His Word,,,,I Will have Mercy on who I will have Mercy on,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and when,where,how & IF He decides

       The truth is, we live in a world that is evil, corrupt & full of many real & present dangers............to walk around as Taker posted earlier thinking that "God protects the righteous" actually means that no harm will ever come to a righteous Christian is just plain foolish & does not mean that there is any lack of Faith from the Christian that tries to be safe,cautious,& is ready to protect themselves or others in the event they need to by physical force................& saying that a  person must have done something (sin)to be attacked or in some way suffer without Gods intervention to prevent it is ridiculous,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,that is the same as when Jesus disciples asked Him if it were Bartemeas' or his family's sin that caused his blindness

        Hashe,I would much rather have God with me than a gun also but I know that God is with me & yet I do have a gun And I sure would be disappointed if I had a husband that had to think about whether or not he would protect me or just idly stand y & watch me be raped .....even my Sisters from church wouldn't stand by & watch someone harm me(or anyone else).

         Did Job do something to cause all his grief ?God allowed those things for Jobs good & it His own Glory!God allows many things to happen & we do not have to know why but He is Worthy to be Praised in the midst of it all,whether He intercedes or not.....True Faith comes into play when bad things happen & you know that God had nothing to do with it....................Praise & Gory to God,Always!

                                                                                                                                                 With love-in Christ ,Kwik

[Hashe]

The issue is one of control.

 

If I truly believe that God is control then I will rest with that. Of course, bad things happen to good people, however if I want God to be in control, then he will be in control and he will let me know what do to in difficult situations. This is the way Jesus walked. If I think that having a gun puts me in control, then I'm fooling myself.

 

 

Ultimately the question is, Can I trust God to be in control and walk like Jesus did, knowing that if I'm in a difficult situation he will show me what to do?