Last Daze Posted July 31, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted July 31, 2014 I missed your definition of a "beast kingdom". In general terms, without referring to any specific scripture, will you describe your understanding of what a beast kingdom is? No, I will not do that. Because God's Word only is how we truthfully know what it is. He gave us the evidence in those Scriptures I quoted. It's up to you to want to follow them as written or not. You won't take the opportunity, in a discussion forum setting, to explain the evidence as you see it in simple terms? I find that a little more than odd. If you don't know, or can't, that's fine. Just say so. I'm trying to understand your position, however, I'm not interested in "hide and go seek". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted July 31, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted July 31, 2014 a possession of the dragon? - Rev 13:2 "...And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority." That's a whole lot different from "took possession of". Giving is the transfer of <whatever is given> from <the giver> to <the receiver>. This is basic grammar 101 in that Rev. Scripture. It's not difficult to realize the possessive pronouns in it. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. That "his" and "him" are simply being used as possessive pronouns, to show ownership. It does not mean that 1st beast is a person. The KJV translators could have just as well translated those as "its" per the Greek, but they didn't clearly, showing they most likely didn't yet grasp its meaning. Back in Rev.12:3-4 with the red dragon, it's about the time of Satan's original rebellion; we are shown a beast kingdom with ten horns, seven heads, and seven crowns, and it's timing is given when he drew a third of the stars (angels) to earth with his tail. In Rev.13:2 the 1st beast is being compared to the beast kingdoms of Dan.7. In Rev.17 Jesus said the "seven heads" are "seven mountains", and He was... describing details about both beasts in that Rev.17, so I disagree with your false assumption that Rev.17 has nothing to do with Rev.13. 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. Does a person have "seven heads" that are "seven mountains"? Of course not. Does a person have "ten horns" that represent ten kings per Daniel and Rev.17? Of course not. But a beast kingdom does. The 2nd Beast: 11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. Why would the deceived worship the 1st beast if that is about a kingdom, right? Because that's what they are in love with, even today, the one world system idea. When that 2nd beast comes to that power, that's what he will setup over all the earth, as one of its "seven heads" will have suffered a deadly wound. Does a person with seven heads suffer a wound? No, of course not. But a system can. And since Jesus told us IN REV.17 the "seven heads" ARE "seven mountains", which 'mountain' head would that be that suffers a deadly wound for that 2nd beast to come and heal it? So in reality, when you guys should be much farther in your understanding of this matter our Lord Jesus revealed, it seems you want to go backwards. The time is too short to be doing that backwards pedaling. I'm not sure what you're getting at with your grammar lesson. I think you misunderstood what I said. The dragon is Satan. The beast from the sea is a demon that influences governments, first, the feet of iron and clay (multinational), second, through the 10 kings briefly, lastly, through the false prophet (antichrist). Revelation 13 shows the demon coming up out of the sea (abyss) because that's where he comes from according to Rev 17. The Rev 17 waters are related to the harlot...completely different contexts. Not related. When the false prophet takes authority away from the 10 horns, three of them turn against him. This is the apparent death of his fledgling kingdom (seventh mountain, head). However, in a miraculous display of supernatural power, he rips those three horns out by the roots and his kingdom comes back to life. Seventh one...its the seventh one. Yes, we probably should be much further along, but when simple explanations aren't forthcoming, it impedes progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted July 31, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 598 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,127 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,855 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted July 31, 2014 I think that is a fallen angel and not a demon....... for what it's worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Posted July 31, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 17 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,727 Content Per Day: 1.04 Reputation: 2,305 Days Won: 5 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted July 31, 2014 Was wondering if you could clarify that a little bit please. Is the "mouth" the false prophet? Is the beast from the sea a human? Could you elaborate? When human characteristics are given to a beast kingdom, the bible is then referring to the leader of that kingdom. The beast of Rev 13 is a kingdom, but later also the antichrist. Could you (or Salty) please define a "beast kingdom"? Is it a kingdom that's come into power through the influence of a demon (demons)? If not, can you explain how a kingdom comes up out of the abyss as the beast from the sea does? Where does the false prophet fit into this kingdom? Hi Last Daze God refers to this world (Satans kingdom) as a wilderness. Beasts dwell in the wilderness, where the strong devour the weak. It's like a jungle here, and it's the law of the jungle. These kingdoms operate like beasts. The sea represents peoples. When a beast comes out of the sea, it means kings that have come out of peoples and populations (nations). The beast coming out of the earth, means this beast is also earth born, a man, but has not received his power in the same way. He has received power from Satan. All these kingdoms have come out of the sea, but the last kingdom with the 10 horns has come out of the bottomless pit (Rev 16:8). It's Satan's specially groomed kingdom, and the idea is his, with the intention to destroy all flesh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Posted August 1, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 17 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,727 Content Per Day: 1.04 Reputation: 2,305 Days Won: 5 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 1, 2014 An animal is just used as a symbol for a country. Its as simple as that. There is no implication of demonic influence although all empires outside of Israel had less of a Godly intervention, and so would have been under the influence of ungodly religions. Because the bible focusses on the Middle East, these "animal" countries are normally huge empires that controlled the entire region for hundreds of years. The precedent for this is set in Daniel 7. The word "beast" has evil connotations in the English language, but in Greek it just meant something like a wild bull, or aurochs. I believe the abyss is just symbolism for coming out of a dark/barren place. The beast disappeared for a while (Rev 17: the beast was and is not), and in this way the kingdom comes back from a dark and barren place (comes out of the abyss). Yes it could also be seen as coming from a dark and evil place because the country is set up for evil purposes. Who do you think the prince of Persia and the prince of Greece refer to in Daniel 10:13,20? Hi These a Satans angels. It shows he has high ranking angels appointed over nations, I think it was the angel Gabriel who was speaking to Daniel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Posted August 1, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 17 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,727 Content Per Day: 1.04 Reputation: 2,305 Days Won: 5 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 1, 2014 Just to verify that the sea presents peoples, nations, etc Revelation 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. So a beast coming out of the sea, having 7 heads (kingdoms) is made up of these, ...peoples, multitudes, nations and tongues.... but the last head, which produces the 10 horns, comes out of the bottomless pit. It's not a kingdom that's conquered like the ones before, it's a kingdom that gets in through the back door, so to speak, because Satan has given this kingdom his power, and not because of their own. This beast with the 10 horns, still speaks also, because he will make the laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted August 1, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 1, 2014 I think that is a fallen angel and not a demon....... for what it's worth. I've heard that distinction before, and how some people define the difference, but it still seems ambiguous to me. I just don't think we know enough about evil spirit beings to clearly delineate. If "fallen angels" fits your understanding better then that's fine. I see it as an evil spirit being of the same type as the prince of Persia, and the prince of Greece, whatever they are. I've heard that demons are disembodied spirits of dead Nephilim which were the offspring of fallen angels and women, but what I've heard isn't terribly convincing. Do you have a link you can post? I might be erroneously calling fallen angels, demons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted August 1, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 1, 2014 Who do you think the prince of Persia and the prince of Greece refer to in Daniel 10:13,20? Hi These a Satans angels. It shows he has high ranking angels appointed over nations, I think it was the angel Gabriel who was speaking to Daniel. I agree. Do you then think that it's reasonable that there was also a "prince of Babylon" and a "prince of Rome" since those kingdoms are also part of the four beasts of Daniel 7? If so, do you think its possible that the "prince of Rome" was cast into the abyss sometime in the first century or before to be held until his release in the last days fulfilling “The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction."? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted August 1, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 1, 2014 I'm not changing the meaning of beasts, just getting to the root of their existence. I agree that the beasts in Daniel 7 are described as kings / kingdoms. Daniel 10 shows us that there are demons behind the scenes, associated with these kingdoms. Demon is released from the abyss and causes a kingdom (beast) to exercise dominion. I'm not sure what it is that you want me to reconcile. What are the two differences? That's all good, thanks for explaining, I just wanted to understand your position, and I feel what you have said is an option. My explanation of how a kingdom can arise from the abyss is similar but more symbolic, yours a little more literal which is a good thing. I had a feeling that we were close to saying the same thing. As [other one] pointed out, "fallen angel" may be a better description of the evil spirit beings behind the kingdoms than "demon". I still need to dig into that, but either way, the point's the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted August 1, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 598 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,127 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,855 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted August 1, 2014 I think that is a fallen angel and not a demon....... for what it's worth. I've heard that distinction before, and how some people define the difference, but it still seems ambiguous to me. I just don't think we know enough about evil spirit beings to clearly delineate. If "fallen angels" fits your understanding better then that's fine. I see it as an evil spirit being of the same type as the prince of Persia, and the prince of Greece, whatever they are. I've heard that demons are disembodied spirits of dead Nephilim which were the offspring of fallen angels and women, but what I've heard isn't terribly convincing. Do you have a link you can post? I might be erroneously calling fallen angels, demons. If they would still talk to me, I might introduce you to a few... after a short time I'm sure you'd be convinced. princes of Persia and Greece are two of the highest ranks of angels just under Satan himself. Angels do not need bodies to manifest themselves in our realm for extended periods of time....... Demons do because their bodies have died..... not being human or angel, there is no where for them to go so they just drift around looking for a body to reside in.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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