Is there an Apostasy?

[Ovedya]

Has this suddently turned into a OSAS debate?

[Ovedya]

I never stated that we must keep the Sabbath for salvation. I keep it because God stated in the Ten Commandments for me to do so and God made it part of creation when He rested on the Sabbath. God said He would be there for holy worship and fellowship on the seventh day so we can draw from His holiness.

No one is stating that you must do it...I'm just stating why I do.

Regards

Timothy

Okay. But I cannot help but take from your statements that you are condemning the practice of believer's meeting on the first day of the week for the same reason. Is this the case?

Also, do you keep the entire law, or do you just keep this one practice? Because the Bible does state that if you fail to keep one law then you are in violation of the entire law.

[Matthitjah]

Table,

QUOTE(Dr. Luke @ Dec 28 2004, 10:01 AM)

Table,

I ask again? Are the writings of Paul Holy writ? Are they the Word of God?

I saw at your site that you do not believe Paul's writings to be the Word of God only relatable?

Also brother Shilo is correct. Apostasy is a falling away from Christ. From the Truth of the Word. It is in essence lawlessness. Without Christ you cannot keep the Law. Yet with Christ you would try to yoke people under it in a manner of day's on which to worship and what to put in our mouths.

The Lord claimed that men would worship God in Spirit and in Truth.

So is He only present on Saturday's?

Would it be wrong to hold a youth service on say a Thursday night? Or should it only be Saturday?

Apostasy has always been even from the beginnings of the Church.

[RGR]

Masterstable,

You talk about the cross being a pagan object of worship, etc. However, you seem to neglect the fac that Jesus said to take up our cross and follow Him! So Jesus was telling us to pick up a pagan object and follow Him? Don't think so!!!!

Also, please explain why the early church was meeting on the 1st day of the week. You excuse Paul's writings as saying they were simply letters to the churches, but the fact remains that the early church was meeting on the 1st day of the week and that can't be explained away.

I never stated that we must keep the Sabbath for salvation. I keep it because God stated in the Ten Commandments for me to do so...

If you attempt to keep the law, which the 10 Commandments were a part of, you are required to keep the entire law! If you stumble in one point, you've broken the whole law. However, Jesus nailed the law to that pagan object He told us to carry and it is no longer a requirement!!!!

Time is constant and enduring forever so He was creating a time of holy worship by putting His own holy presence in the time from sunset to sunset so we can draw His presence out of that time.

Personally, His presence can be found ANY TIME of the day or night, no matter what day. By your example, God is limited to only the Sabbath day which makes Him incapable of revealing Himself any other time. Actually sounds rather new-agish to me.

[Guest shiloh357]

Masterstable.

We do not possess eternal life now. Salvation is offered to those that will come to the calling but salvation is not given until the resurrection. What Paul taught was that we have the earnest of the promise if we continue to the end.

Well Masterstable, you need to start reading your Bible a bit better.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Here, Jesus tells us that he that hears His Word and believe upon Him who sent him HAS (present tense) Eternal life. Jesus also said that the same person IS (present tense) passed from death to life.

Furthermore, John also writes:

Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

In this verse John tells us "ye MAY KNOW (present tense) that ye HAVE (present tense)eternal life.

So why would I want to listen to someone like you who doesn't know if he is saved or not? Why would I want to be like you? You have no hope. You may not make it, according to your theology. Why would I want to adopt some lame belief system that tells me that I will not know until the resurrection, if God saved me or not, when I can read the Bible and believe the Word of God which says that I CAN know that I am saved, right now? You have nothing of value to offer me or anyone else on this board.

What Paul taught was that we have the earnest of the promise if we continue to the end.

Why do you bother mentioning Paul? As I understand it, you don't even believe Paul's writings to be the Word of God! BTW that is not what Paul said. What Paul said was:

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,

Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

The earnest is the Holy Spirit. That is why I know I am saved. I am sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise and He is God's pledge regarding my inheritance. His presence in me is the testimony of my salvation. He is the guarantee that all that God has promised the saints will come to pass. Nowhere doe it say that we are sealed IF we endure to the end. YOU penciled that in there.

Remember in

Rev 3:5 "He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess" and in

Rev 3:21 "To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne."

Guess what? I am an overcomer right now!!

1Jo 5:4

[Guest shiloh357]

Masterstable

Salvation is through belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus the Son of God.

The fruits of, or works of, a christian comes about because of the work God does in us if we submit to Him. As we read in Matt 20:16 For many are called, but few chosen." We also read in James 2:14. "What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?"

And on down he states "Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. James 2:17-18.

So we see that both are very important and although salvation is offered to all that will come to Jesus...does not mean everyone will endure to the end.

Salvation is by grace through faith (Eph2:8,9). We are saved apart from works according to Romans 3:28. If works accompany faith in order for a person to be saved, then faith is worthless.

Matt 20:16 is referring to those who are chosen for certain, and sometimes higher stations of service in the body of Christ. It is not saying that God calls many but chooses only a few to be saved.

In James 2:14, The meaning here is, that that faith which does not produce good works, or which would not produce holy living if fairly acted out, will save no man, for it is not genuine faith. It is not saying that one must have works to be saved. There are professing Christians and confessing Christians. There are those who simply give lip service, and those who truly live out their faith in Christ. The "faith" of those who only give lip service, is not genuine faith. It is called mental assent, and no one can be saved by mere mental assent.

In James 2:17-18, the issue is the outworking of our faith in the presence of others. Our faith is seen by our works. We cannot demonstrate faith without doing something. It is just impossible. The only way anyone will know that what we say about Christ is true, is by our example. That is the thrust of James chapter 2. It is our faith being justified in the sight of men when they see us living out our faith in practical ways.

[nebula]

I do not attend any church. I'm non-denominational. I'm a christian that goes by the bible and I follow Jesus the Messiah.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do you have anyone you are accountable to?

Not having accountability always leads to bad news!

[Guest Masterstable]

I never stated that we must keep the Sabbath for salvation. I keep it because God stated in the Ten Commandments for me to do so and God made it part of creation when He rested on the Sabbath. God said He would be there for holy worship and fellowship on the seventh day so we can draw from His holiness.

No one is stating that you must do it...I'm just stating why I do.

Regards

Timothy

Okay. But I cannot help but take from your statements that you are condemning the practice of believer's meeting on the first day of the week for the same reason. Is this the case?

Also, do you keep the entire law, or do you just keep this one practice? Because the Bible does state that if you fail to keep one law then you are in violation of the entire law.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My reasons for not liking sunday worship is because it was introduced into the church by a sun worshipper. God did not change it to sunday man did. I just want to follow God's lead.

I do not believe that the keeping of the Law can give salvation. I did a paper titled Law vs. Grace and if you want to read it go to this U R L.

Regards

Timothy

Edited December 29, 2004 by Dr. Luke

[Guest Masterstable]

Table,

QUOTE(Dr. Luke @ Dec 28 2004, 10:01 AM)

Table,

I ask again? Are the writings of Paul Holy writ? Are they the Word of God?

I saw at your site that you do not believe Paul's writings to be the Word of God only relatable?

Also brother Shilo is correct. Apostasy is a falling away from Christ. From the Truth of the Word. It is in essence lawlessness. Without Christ you cannot keep the Law. Yet with Christ you would try to yoke people under it in a manner of day's on which to worship and what to put in our mouths.

The Lord claimed that men would worship God in Spirit and in Truth.

So is He only present on Saturday's?

Would it be wrong to hold a youth service on say a Thursday night? Or should it only be Saturday?

Apostasy has always been even from the beginnings of the Church.

[Matthitjah]

Table,

When this was written the new testament did not exist.

Timothy?

You are negating the whole of the new Testament as Divine Scripture?

Peace,

Dave