Is there an Apostasy?

[Guest Masterstable]

Masterstable,

You talk about the cross being a pagan object of worship, etc.  However, you seem to neglect the fac that Jesus said to take up our cross and follow Him!  So Jesus was telling us to pick up a pagan object and follow Him?  Don't think so!!!!

Also, please explain why the early church was meeting on the 1st day of the week.  You excuse Paul's writings as saying they were simply letters to the churches, but the fact remains that the early church was meeting on the 1st day of the week and that can't be explained away.

I never stated that we must keep the Sabbath for salvation. I keep it because God stated in the Ten Commandments for me to do so...

If you attempt to keep the law, which the 10 Commandments were a part of, you are required to keep the entire law! If you stumble in one point, you've broken the whole law. However, Jesus nailed the law to that pagan object He told us to carry and it is no longer a requirement!!!!

Time is constant and enduring forever so He was creating a time of holy worship by putting His own holy presence in the time from sunset to sunset so we can draw His presence out of that time.

Personally, His presence can be found ANY TIME of the day or night, no matter what day. By your example, God is limited to only the Sabbath day which makes Him incapable of revealing Himself any other time. Actually sounds rather new-agish to me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You stated...You talk about the cross being a pagan object of worship, etc. However, you seem to neglect the fac that Jesus said to take up our cross and follow Him! So Jesus was telling us to pick up a pagan object and follow Him? Don't think so!!!!

Here is the verse...Mark 10:21 "Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, "One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me."

The research I have done on this scripture denotes that "take up the cross, and follow Me." was added and not of the original text.

Check out E. W. Bullinger's book titled The Companion Bible. If you have an electronic bible with the interliner you will see that this scripture is numbered with 9999 which denotes that it was not of the original text.

The word Cross in the Greek is Stauros which means stake not cross. The point Jesus was making with this statement was "Take up my burden and follow me".

But please understand...I'm not judgeing or condemning anyone for worshipping this thing...I just don't want to do it, and it don't bother me to call it for what it is. A pagan symbol that was worshipped long before Jesus was born. The point is why is it so important to people?

Regards

Timothy

[Guest Masterstable]

Masterstable,

You talk about the cross being a pagan object of worship, etc.

Edited December 29, 2004 by Dr. Luke

[Matthitjah]

Table,

It is clear from the PM (Private Message) that you have posted here. That all I asked you to do was to not post a link to your site here. I also have not asked you to stop posting your thoughts or beliefs here.

I did not ask you to leave. That is your own choice.

Peace,

Dave

[shammah]

Masterstable really seemed to have me fooled, but when he said that Paul was writing letters and not to be taken as scripture, I could see when Paul would specify His own opinion; but Paul made it very clear what was his opinions, and what was the pure word of God!

I sometimes skim through the posts and saw that he followed Armstong, at one time, and that the old lie about older more reliable versions didn't contained verses like the following!

Matt.10:34-41

34Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.

35For I have come to part asunder a man from his father, and a daughter from her mother, and a [c]newly married wife from her mother-in-law--

36And a man's foes will be they of his own household.(A)

37He who loves [and [d]takes more pleasure in] father or mother more than [in] Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves [and takes more pleasure in] son or daughter more than [in] Me is not worthy of Me;

38And he who does not take up his cross and follow Me [[e]cleave steadfastly to Me, conforming wholly to My example in living and, if need be, in dying also] is not worthy of Me.

39Whoever finds his [[f]lower] life will lose it [the higher life], and whoever loses his [lower] life on My account will find it [the higher life].

40He who receives and welcomes and accepts you receives and welcomes and accepts Me, and he who receives and welcomes and accepts Me receives and welcomes and accepts Him Who sent Me.

41He who receives and welcomes and accepts a prophet because he is a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward, and he who receives and welcomes and accepts a righteous man because he is a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.

Matt.16:24-26;

24Then Jesus said to His disciples, If anyone desires to be My disciple, let him deny himself [disregard, lose sight of, and forget himself and his own interests] and take up his cross and follow Me [[f]cleave steadfastly to Me, conform wholly to My example in living and, if need be, in dying, also].

25For whoever is bent on saving his [temporal] life [his comfort and security here] shall lose it [eternal life]; and whoever loses his life [his comfort and security here] for My sake shall find it [life everlasting].

26For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his life [his blessed [g]life in the kingdom of God]? Or what would a man give as an exchange for his [blessed] [h]life [in the kingdom of God]?

Mark.8:34-38;

34And Jesus called [to Him] the throng with His disciples and said to them, If anyone intends to come after Me, let him deny himself [forget, ignore, disown, and [d]lose sight of himself and his own interests] and take up his cross, and [[e]joining Me as a disciple and siding with My party] follow [f]with Me [continually, cleaving steadfastly to Me].

35For whoever wants to save his [[g]higher, spiritual, eternal] life, will lose it [the [h]lower, natural, temporal life which is lived only on earth]; and whoever gives up his life [which is lived only on earth] for My sake and the Gospel's will save it [his [j]higher, spiritual life [k]in the eternal kingdom of God].

36For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world, and forfeit his life [[l]in the eternal kingdom of God]?

37For what can a man give as an exchange ([m]a compensation, a ransom, in return) for his [blessed] life [[n]in the eternal kingdom of God]?

38For whoever [o]is ashamed [here and now] of Me and My words in this adulterous (unfaithful) and [preeminently] sinful generation, of him will the Son of Man also be ashamed when He comes in the glory (splendor and majesty) of His Father with the holy angels.

Luke.9:23:-26;

23And He said to all, If any person wills to come after Me, let him deny himself [[d]disown himself, [e]forget, lose sight of himself and his own interests, [f]refuse and give up himself] and take up his cross daily and follow Me [[g]cleave steadfastly to Me, conform wholly to My example in living and, if need be, in dying also].

24For whoever would preserve his life and save it will lose and destroy it, but whoever loses his life for My sake, he will preserve and save it [[h]from the penalty of eternal death].

25For what does it profit a man, if he gains the whole world and ruins or forfeits (loses) himself?

26Because whoever is ashamed of Me and of My teachings, of him will the Son of Man be ashamed when He comes in the [threefold] glory (the splendor and majesty) of Himself and of the Father and of the holy angels.

Luke 4:21-31;

21So the servant came and reported these [answers] to his master. Then the master of the house said in wrath to his servant, Go quickly into the [a]great streets and the small streets of the city and bring in here the poor and the disabled and the blind and the lame.

22And the servant [returning] said, Sir, what you have commanded me to do has been done, and yet there is room.

23Then the master said to the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges and urge and constrain [them] to yield and come in, so that my house may be filled.

24For I tell you, not one of those who were invited shall taste my supper.

25Now huge crowds were going along with [Jesus], and He turned and said to them,

26If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his [own] father and mother [in the sense of indifference to or relative disregard for them in comparison with his attitude toward God] and [likewise] his wife and children and brothers and sisters--[yes] and even his own life also--he cannot be My disciple.

27Whoever does not persevere and carry his own cross and come after (follow) Me cannot be My disciple.

28For which of you, wishing to build a [c]farm building, does not first sit down and calculate the cost [to see] whether he has sufficient means to finish it?

29Otherwise, when he has laid the foundation and is unable to complete [the building], all who see it will begin to mock and jeer at him,

30Saying, This man began to build and was not able ([d]worth enough) to finish.

31Or what king, going out to engage in conflict with another king, will not first sit down and consider and take counsel whether he is able with ten thousand [men] to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand?

These are the key doctrinal issues of entering into the Door, the Narrow way, the crucified life; and there is a cost! It cost our Lord everything, we are both with a price, it will cost us everything as well!

We get into the kingdom one person at a time, laying down all hinderances, of the fleshly and soulish desires, putting Him first in our life!

You can tell a new translation, though they may claim to be older they make they way easy for many to enter to be saved!

Also by adding, taking away, or slightly changing the meanings of words, or adding commentaries; they can can copy-write their new bible and be set for life!

Agape; Epraim.

[Ovedya]

Here is the verse...Mark 10:21 "Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, "One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me."

The research I have done on this scripture denotes that "take up the cross, and follow Me." was added and not of the original text.

Check out E. W. Bullinger's book titled The Companion Bible. If you have an electronic bible with the interliner you will see that this scripture is numbered with 9999 which denotes that it was not of the original text.

This is only half true. Some of the ancient manuscripts have it and some don't. it all depends on who you are talking to. Some people have an agenda and some don't.

But then again, the word is in Matt. 10:38, just as well as it is in Matt. 16:24, and 27:32, and then again in Mark 15:21, and in Luke 14:27. Also, the word is used in Paul's letters, in 1 Cor. 1:17, 18, and Gal. 5:11. So, were all of these added too?

The word Cross in the Greek is Stauros which means stake not cross. The point Jesus was making with this statement was "Take up my burden and follow me".

You're right! The word does mean "stake." But your research is seriously flawed, as are your statements concerning the manner in which the Lord Jesus was crucified. It is historically recorded that the Romans used only three methods for crucifixion. These three forms vary only in the manner by which the device of torture is constructed. Actually, only two types were constructed. The third is a literal tree upon which the criminal was crucified. The ussage of a tree for crucifixion is even recorded in the Old Testament, in Deutoronomy.

Crucifixion existed as the most painful and torturous forms of capital pubishment in the Roman Empire for several hundred years - somewhere around 800 years, in fact. Literally thousands of men, women, and yes, even children were killed by the cross.

It was documented by historians of that era that this form of torture is precisely how the Bible describes it. You may be surprised to know that secular historical works confirm the Bible's description of the Lord Jesus' having to bear the cross on His back. They also confirm the manner in which a person was crucified and even the construction of the torture device itself.

I don't have the time to reference all the works themselves that disprove your argument. But here are a few that I found on the web:

http://www.joezias.com/CrucifixionAntiquity.html

http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/cross.htm

http://www.carm.org/evidence/Jesus_cross.htm