Jump to content
IGNORED

fire on the earth


mevosper

Recommended Posts

Guest shiloh357

 

 

 

The problem is that the Hebrew word olam doesn't use forever to mean, "for all eternity."  Olam is forever but is limited to the current earth. 

 

Actually, the contention is not on the word 'for ever/olam'. The contention is with the outcomes of the interpretations for which 'for ever/olam' is used. 

 

Firstly, 2 examples:

Exo 3:15, and Exo 21:6

 

Exo 3:15 KJV - And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

 

Exo 21:6 KJV - Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

 

olam is used in both verses.

 

In 3:15, we are expecting God's name to be Jehovah for all eternity.

 

However, in 21:6, the correct and agreeable conclusion/interpretation is that the servant will be with the master until the master let him go. (See Deut 15:12-18). This was because every 6 years, servants were to be set free. But if the servant wanted to stay for whatever reason, the awl through the ear was a mark to annul that 6-year statute, and the servant was with the master in perpetuity. The master then had complete control as to when the servant was allowed to leave.  :mgdetective:  :read: This didn't seem to be an issue since the servant wanted to be where the master was. Seems like a type of Christ/believer relationship.  

 

Here are a couple of more examples with olam:

 

1Sa 1:22 KJV - But Hannah went not up; for she said unto her husband, I will not go up until the child be weaned, and then I will bring him, that he may appear before the LORD, and there abide for ever(olam translated for ever. i would say Samuel is with and appearing before, the LORD,  and there abiding for ever).

 

Jon 2:6 KJV - I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God. (olam translated for ever. Jonah, as far as he was concerned was dead. The earth/fish had swallowed him up. He was there, in the grave, for ever. No man could get him out, but only God could break the grave, death and hell, and 'for ever' to bring Jonah back to life. Olam is used to show the destitution, the "grave" situation, that Jonah was in. And to show the mighty power of God's hand. He WAS there for ever unless God intervened.)

 

 

The outcome concerning the perpetuity of the earth and heavens:

should this physical earth and heaven not be destroyed by fire, it creates a huge twist in a large number of end-times beliefs.  

 

So what about these verses pertaing to the Levitical Priesthood and use of Olam regarding their services in the Old Testament?

 Lev. 6:18,22; 7:34,36; 10:9,15; 16:29,31; 17:7; 23:14,21,31,41; 24:3; 25:23,30,46;

 

The word olam is used in reference to the work of priests of the Old Testament.  Would you argue that they are to also operate forever (in all eternity)  or was their a point where their services ceased and they were replaced by a New Covenant and a new priesthood in the order of Melchizedek?

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Advanced Member
  • Followers:  1
  • Topic Count:  19
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  317
  • Content Per Day:  0.09
  • Reputation:   133
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  02/24/2014
  • Status:  Offline

 

 

The word olam is used in reference to the work of priests of the Old Testament.  Would you argue that they are to also operate forever (in all eternity)  or was their a point where their services ceased and they were replaced by a New Covenant and a new priesthood in the order of Melchizedek?

It's ironic you bring up the law and work of the priests. I would argue that Christ fulfilled the law and it has passed.  

 

These passages refer to the old covenant, before Christ, and before the temple destruction. These are part of the "old heaven" and "old earth" Christ talked about in Matt 5:18. Therefore I would expect them to last until the “old earth” passed away. What is the context? The law.

Mat 5:18 KJV - For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

 

The question then is did Christ fulfill all the law? If not what do we need to be doing that was commanded by God to the Israelites? The answer is yes, Christ fulfilled the law and the old covenant has passed.

 

Make the connection. You know the bible. Put the pieces together. It makes sense when it is put together properly (rightly divided). It becomes clear. Don't argue just to argue. Do you think that I have not been where you are and where you believe. Do you think that I am not educated in the word? I don't wist to be high-minded. Put on the eye-salve. Ask for it.

 

Assume for a moment that what Christ is talking about is the old covenant (afterwards you can go back to your original thinking). That there already is a new heaven and earth that we cannot see with physical eyes. A heaven and earth that is invisible to us. Paul talks about invisible things:

 

Rom 1:20 KJV - For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

 

Invisible things. What is Paul talking about here? Invisible. Can't be seen with the naked physical eye. But only with the heart/spirit. Christ also says that the kingdom of Heaven is not seen by observation. 

 

Luk 17:20 KJV - And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

 

The seed that Christ talks about in the parable of the sower (Matt 13), he says plainly this is the word of God. The seed is the word or spirit that is planted. It grows in the heart, the spiritual heart. It is watered by the springs of living water flowing from his throne. Obviously, these waters and springs cannot be seen with physical eyes. 

 

Mat 13:19 KJV - When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Mat 13:20 KJV - But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

 

The first seed I remember I was 4 years old. And yes, I do remember it distinctly. 

 

Paul talks about the groanings of the spirit:

 

Rom 8:24 KJV - For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 KJV - But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Rom 8:26 KJV -  Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 

 

Groanings, longings to be with the Lord. Longing to be in heaven in which is where our hope lies. These are unseen things. Never to be seen by physical man. These groanings are intense yearnings to be with God, where there is peace. God made all things new, not seen, but invisible. That's where faith comes in. Knowing in our hearts that small is the gate and narrow is the path leading to life. Why is it small and narrow? Because it is not seen with physical eyes. Because it is easy to miss. Because it is difficult to travel once found. We have to be lead to it. And once we find it, we tell others about it. What we do in this life with this information has everything to do with the reward we get in the next. The next being our permanent abode. The path we follow and the gate we enter leads to the permanent life we will have in the end.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest shiloh357
It's ironic you bring up the law and work of the priests. I would argue that Christ fulfilled the law and it has passed.  These passages refer to the old covenant, before Christ, and before the temple destruction. These are part of the "old heaven" and "old earth" Christ talked about in Matt 5:18. Therefore I would expect them to last until the “old earth” passed away. What is the context? The law.

 

I know, the point is that they were said to be an ordinance "forever" (olam) but as you have said, they are passed.   So just because it says something is "forever" doesn't mean it is going to last into all eternity and you have helped me prove that point. 

 

The question then is did Christ fulfill all the law? If not what do we need to be doing that was commanded by God to the Israelites? The answer is yes, Christ fulfilled the law and the old covenant has passed.

 

 

 

No, that isn't the question.   Jesus did fulfill the law.  I am not debating that.  You are trying to refute an argument I didn't raise.

 

The bottom line is that I have Jesus' word that the heavens and earth will pass away but his words will not pass away.  So the heavens and earth we see now are not eternal.   I'll believe Jesus, not you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Advanced Member
  • Followers:  1
  • Topic Count:  19
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  317
  • Content Per Day:  0.09
  • Reputation:   133
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  02/24/2014
  • Status:  Offline

shalom

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Junior Member
  • Followers:  2
  • Topic Count:  8
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  78
  • Content Per Day:  0.02
  • Reputation:   49
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  01/17/2014
  • Status:  Offline

What is meant by this? 

 

Luk 12:49 KJV - I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

Isaiah 54:16-17  -  Behold, I (our God) have created the smith that blows the coals in the "FIRE," and that brings for "an instrument"(a tool) for His(the Lords) WORK; and I have created the waster to destroy.(our enemies)  No weapon that is formed against thee(us in Christ) shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee(us, the Lords) in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the "SERVANTS OF THE LORD," and their righteousness is of me, saith the Lord(Jesus).            The Lord is of Heaven and that makes "His works" heavenly also, not of this earth.  The fire in the coals is a heavenly fire, is God heavenly? so is the fire "He uses" for "His work here on earth," to be done, that is what is being spoke of there in Isaiah.      Zech 13:9  -   And I (The Lord) will bring the third part "through the FIRE"(heavenly Fire) and will "REFINE THEM AS SILVER IS REFINED" and will try them as "GOLD IS TRIED: they shall call on my name,(Jesus' name) and I will hear them.  I will say it is my people and they shall say "THE LORD IS MY GOD."          Proverbs 25:4  -  Take away the dross(impurities) from the silver,(tried by fire) and there shall come forth a "VESSEL" for "THE FINER."(refiner)        When the dross is removed from the silver, it becomes pure, and the only way to remove the dross is "through fire."  Fire also purifies, refine - To free from impurities. To become pure or perfected.          Psalms 104:4  -  Who makes His(Our Heavenly Father) angels spirits; His(The Lords) Ministers(serving Jesus) a flaming "FIRE."               So you see, heavenly "FIRE" is also a refining purifying "HOLY FIRE," the FIRE OF THE LORD is not just of destruction, its also for "HIS USE."   Same as His Words, that are for us, they are for protection against the enemy.  There is more to share on Gods Holy Heavenly FIre but its not allowed to be shared here, so sorry for this, I have shared what I hope is allowed.   :mgcheerful:

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Advanced Member
  • Followers:  1
  • Topic Count:  19
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  317
  • Content Per Day:  0.09
  • Reputation:   133
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  02/24/2014
  • Status:  Offline

walkonwater - thank you for sharing. 

 

Here's what Zeph has to say about God's fire:

 

Zep 1:18 KJV - Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

 

 

 

So you see, heavenly "FIRE" is also a refining purifying "HOLY FIRE," the FIRE OF THE LORD is not just of destruction, its also for "HIS USE."  

Seems as though Paul is talking about a refiners fire in 1 Cor 3. Check it:

 

1Co 3:12-16 KJV - Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
 - Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
 - If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
 - If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
 - Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Junior Member
  • Followers:  2
  • Topic Count:  8
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  78
  • Content Per Day:  0.02
  • Reputation:   49
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  01/17/2014
  • Status:  Offline

 

walkonwater - thank you for sharing. 

 

Here's what Zeph has to say about God's fire:

 

Zep 1:18 KJV - Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

 

 

 

So you see, heavenly "FIRE" is also a refining purifying "HOLY FIRE," the FIRE OF THE LORD is not just of destruction, its also for "HIS USE."  

Seems as though Paul is talking about a refiners fire in 1 Cor 3. Check it:

 

1Co 3:12-16 KJV - Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
 - Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
 - If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
 - If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
 - Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

 

Your welcome mevosper =]

 

In 1 Corinthians 3,    The fire being spoke of, is the "tried by fire" to see what the "work produced," Yes in Corinthians, its speaking of every mans "work" being "tried by fire" to see what the "work produced."    The refining fire is for service in serving the Lord, that is the fire being spoke of in Isaiah, silver and gold are precious metals.   In John 20:22   And when He(Jesus) had said this, He(Jesus) breathed on them,(the disciples) and said to them, Receive ye the "Holy Ghost:"....this is where the disciples of Jesus received the Holy Spirit and at Pentecost is where they were baptized by Jesus in the Holy Ghost ....  to serve the Lord, Acts 2:1-4      Also read Matt 3:11 and Luke 3:16    

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Advanced Member
  • Followers:  1
  • Topic Count:  19
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  317
  • Content Per Day:  0.09
  • Reputation:   133
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  02/24/2014
  • Status:  Offline

 

 

What is meant by this? 

 

Luk 12:49 KJV - I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

There is more to share on Gods Holy Heavenly FIre but its not allowed to be shared here, so sorry for this, I have shared what I hope is allowed.    :mgcheerful:

 

What is it that can't be shared and why?

Edited by mevosper
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

  • Group:  Diamond Member
  • Followers:  1
  • Topic Count:  8
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  1,665
  • Content Per Day:  0.46
  • Reputation:   512
  • Days Won:  3
  • Joined:  05/11/2014
  • Status:  Offline

What is meant by this? 

 

Luk 12:49 KJV - I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

 

Not that difficult. By Christ's first coming to die on the cross, it sealed God's coming Judgment by His consuming fire upon this present world. And the kindling has been in process of preparation since this world began (Isaiah 30:33, pointing to the kindling having begun preparation even back to when Satan first rebelled against God.)

 

What level of destruction will God's consuming fire do upon this earth when it comes? We were shown that in 2 Peter 3 (and Hebrews 12). It will not literally destroy the whole earth like being turned into some asteroid splatter. It will cleanse the 'surface' of this earth just as the flood in Noah's day did, and probably with one other small difference, the burning up of all of man's works, i.e., buildings of stone, steel structures, etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service
  • Followers:  0
  • Topic Count:  1
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  127
  • Content Per Day:  0.04
  • Reputation:   6
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  06/19/2014
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  08/19/1934

P

What is meant by this? 

 

Luk 12:49 KJV - I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

Jesus was speaking of the Holy Spirit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...