Is Gog/Magog War=Armageddon War

[iamlamad]

LAMAD,

2 questions if you don't mind-

Question 1:

I can see why you believe the 7th trumpet is right at the abomination because rev 12 follows the 7th trumpet and this is where satan gets kicked out of Heaven and thrown to earth.

I suppose this is where the AC gets his juice to do his thing, from now earth dwelling satan.

However, what do you make of this in rev 12-----

13When the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child. 14Two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, so that she might be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 15The serpent spewed water out of his mouth after the woman like a river, that he might cause her to be carried away by the stream. 16The earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the river which the dragon spewed out of his mouth. 17The dragon grew angry with the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep God's commandments and hold Jesus' testimony.

Verse 17 says the dragon grew angry with the woman, (which I believe is Israel Jews), and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep gods commandments and hold Jesus' testimony.

Who are they?

144,000 Jews?

Messianic Jews who came to know The Lord after the rapture?

Question 2. Read this from Joel 2:

1Blow the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble, for the day of Yahweh comes, for it is close at hand:

2A day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness. As the dawn spreading on the mountains, a great and strong people; there has never been the like, neither will there be any more after them, even to the years of many generations.

3A fire devours before them, and behind them, a flame burns. The land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them, a desolate wilderness. Yes, and no one has escaped them.

4The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses, and as horsemen, so do they run.

5Like the noise of chariots on the tops of the mountains do they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devours the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.

6At their presence the peoples are in anguish. All faces have grown pale.

7They run like mighty men. They climb the wall like warriors. They each march in his line, and they don't swerve off course.

8Neither does one jostle another; they march everyone in his path, and they burst through the defenses, and don't break ranks.

9They rush on the city. They run on the wall. They climb up into the houses. They enter in at the windows like thieves.

10The earth quakes before them. The heavens tremble. The sun and the moon are darkened, and the stars withdraw their shining.

11Yahweh thunders his voice before his army; for his forces are very great; for he is strong who obeys his command; for the day of Yahweh is great and very awesome, and who can endure it?

Question: I believe you said you see this as the 6th seal, am I right? I would like to read your exegesis on this passage.

What say ye?

Thanks,

Spock

Sorry, new computer, new keyboard, new windows - all which leaves me extremely frustrated. It is like I have to learn to type all over again.

 

I like the KJV word, "remnant" of "her seed." Her being Israel, then who is "her seed?" I believe this refers to Christians. Why "remnant?" Because the main load went out with the pretrib rapture. She was being supernaturally protected, which made Satan very angry. So in his anger he turned to all others who believe in Jesus.

 

This Joel 2 Army is very strange indeed. It seems God is writing about His end time army: those who are REALLY sold out to Him, and will do the works of Jesus just before the rapture. Then, I certainly believe the sun turning dark and the moon into blood will be fulfilled with the 6th seal. I also believe we are SEEING THIS with the 4 blood red moons, one of which is now history. I think we are that close to the end. If you will note, Joel mentions the sun and moon again in chapter 3, and this will be fulfilled just before Jesus' Rev. 19 coming.

 

Lamad

[iamlamad]

The pre-trib view is that the Holy Spirit is what is restraining the son of perdition, so the Holy Spirit has to be removed along with the church at the pre-trib rapture. The problem with that theory is all the Bibles will have to go also, because it teaches anyone that excepts Jesus as their savior, the Holy Spirit will never leave them, and the Bible says a number that no man can number will come out of the tribulation. If the Holy Spirit is removed from this earth at a pre-trib rapture, then how can this great number of people coming from the tribulation claim the promise in the Bible about the Holy spirit never leaving them.

Did you forget what life on earth was like before the day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirirt was sent? Did people come to God before then? CERTAINLY they did. In fact, all the disciples came to Jesus before the day of Pentecost. So what this is speaking of is the Holy Spirit indwelling people as in the born again road, and then coming UPON them as on the day of Pentecost. It seems that after the rapture, no one else will receive this great and mighty baptism with the Holy Spirit.

 

LAMAD

[iamlamad]

How are the messianic jews going to be drawn to the Lord Jesus, if the Holy Spirit is removed from earth at the so called pre-trib rapture.

The same way Old Testament people were drawn to God. The same way the disciples were drawn to Jesus.l

 

LAMAD

[Marilyn C]

Hi Spock & Lamad,

 

As you are saying similar things that Rev. 4 & 5 is just after Christ`s ascension & thus Rev. 6 could be from then on. (33 AD ->)

 

As the scroll is a judgment scroll then Christ would have to be judging the world from then on. We know that there are consequences for sin, sickness, wars etc but to my understanding God`s judgments have not yet been poured out. Thus I believe the scroll has not yet been opened.

 

Also Rev. 4 & 5 is about Christ on His own throne (Rev. 3:21) His own authority. At present Christ is at the right hand of the Father (Heb. 1: 3) When the Body of Christ is mature it will be taken to Christ`s own throne as He promised. There, together with Christ they will judge the world Systems. (1 Cor. 6: 2)

 

 

What we are seeing as the scroll is opened is the world systems (Political, economic, military & religious), (the martyrs) & everyone who will be judged. Just because these have been operating for a long time does not mean they are being judged yet.

[Last Daze]

Hi Spock & Lamad,

 

As you are saying similar things that Rev. 4 & 5 is just after Christ`s ascension & thus Rev. 6 could be from then on. (33 AD ->)

 

As the scroll is a judgment scroll then Christ would have to be judging the world from then on. We know that there are consequences for sin, sickness, wars etc but to my understanding God`s judgments have not yet been poured out. Thus I believe the scroll has not yet been opened.

 

Also Rev. 4 & 5 is about Christ on His own throne (Rev. 3:21) His own authority. At present Christ is at the right hand of the Father (Heb. 1: 3) When the Body of Christ is mature it will be taken to Christ`s own throne as He promised. There, together with Christ they will judge the world Systems. (1 Cor. 6: 2)

 

 

What we are seeing as the scroll is opened is the world systems (Political, economic, military & religious), (the martyrs) & everyone who will be judged. Just because these have been operating for a long time does not mean they are being judged yet.

 

I am curious as to how you came to the conclusion that the scroll is a judgment scroll.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Last Daze

[Marilyn C]

Hi Last Daze,

 

Thanks, that is a very good question. In Deuteronomy 32 we read -

 

`Is it not laid up in store with Me, sealed up in My armoury? Vengeance is mine & retribution,.... For He will avenge the blood of His servants, & will render vengeance on His adversaries, & will atone for His land & His people.` (Deut. 32: 34  &  43)

 

`Sealed up` until Christ executes God`s judgments upon the rebellious.

 

`For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son.`  (John 5: 22)

[Last Daze]

Hi Last Daze,

 

Thanks, that is a very good question. In Deuteronomy 32 we read -

 

`Is it not laid up in store with Me, sealed up in My armoury? Vengeance is mine & retribution,.... For He will avenge the blood of His servants, & will render vengeance on His adversaries, & will atone for His land & His people.` (Deut. 32: 34  &  43)

 

`Sealed up` until Christ executes God`s judgments upon the rebellious.

 

`For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son.`  (John 5: 22)

When I read what happens at the opening of the seals, it seems that judgment is announced in the sixth seal and is carried out in the seventh seal with the trumpets.  I don't see how the term "judgment" applies to the whole scroll.  I agree that it leads to judgment but I don't see how each seal is a judgment, especially the first and fifth.  If you think they are judgments, can you explain what the judgment is for seals 1 and 5?  Thanks.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Last Daze,

 

If you look back at #189 you will see that I wrote -

`What we are seeing as the scroll is opened is the world systems (Political, economic, military & religious), (the martyrs) & everyone who will be judged. Just because these have been operating for a long time does not mean they are being judged yet.`

 

The judgment scroll shows `who will be judged.`

 

1. Conquering / Political system `lording it over.`

2. War  /Military

3. Scales / Economic `rich not giving labourer his hire.`

4. Death & Hades / Religious motivation.

5. (martyrs) blood of God`s servants.

6. The world in fear of God`s wrath.

7. The Coming of the Lord. (the completion (7) of the judgments.

 

We see in different scriptures that God will judge this Gentile world system (Luke 21: 24  1 Cor. 6: 2   Dan. 7: 26) And in Deut. 32 we see that these judgments are `sealed up` until God`s timing. The very words are similar to Rev. 10 -

 

`Indeed, I lift up my hand to heaven, & say as I live forever, If I sharpen my flashing sword & My hand takes hold on justice, I will render vengeance on My adversaries, & I will repay those who hate Me. I will make My arrows drunk with blood & My sword shall devour flesh, with the blood of the slain & the captives, from the long-haired leaders of the enemy.`

 

`Rejoice, O nations, with His people; For he will avenge the blood of His servants, & will render vengeance on His adversaries, & will atone for His land & His people.` (Deut. 32: 40 - 43)

 

Thus we can see the 2 groups - Israel (His people) & the nations (Rev. 7 Israel & the nations) who can `rejoice` when they turn to God, that He will avenge the martyrs, (blood of His servants) ....etc

 

 

Hope that it explains it more, Last Daze.

[Spock]

Marilyn,

So that you don't think I'm rude, I read your interpretations to rebut my thoughts, and i guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

I do not agree with anything you have said of late on this thread. Of course, I'm not saying you are wrong, but what I am saying is this- I'm not feeling your interpretation more than mine.

I think LAMAD's analysis is the one to ponder.

In love,

Spock

[Marilyn C]

Hi Spock,

 

That`s fine, we have a ways to travel & I believe as we are open to the Holy Spirit He will guide us into all truth.

 

Now so I can understand what you are saying -

 

When do you see what is happening when the 6th seal is opened? When is that?

 

I`m now reading Iamad`s #184 & will get back to you.

 

 

So is this Lamad`s view -

 

6th seal (all in fear hiding)...................................................................7th seal (Mid) ................................................................7th vial.

 yet people are looking to this rising leader..........................................(Quiet -but A/C killing people 3 1/2 yrs)..........................

 

 

 

This is my view -

 

 

(Scroll - Overview)

1,2,3   ,4,Beginning of Trib...............................................................5 Martyrs / A/C .....................................6 Great earthqu.......7 LORD

Edited August 12, 2014 by Marilyn C