Isaiah 47: is America this present age's Babylon?

[Last Daze]

No America is no Babylon, because Babylon was declared as fallen in the first century. It is a religious system and not a state per say. It is a religious system that existed way back from the old covenant times and received its head wound in 70 AD by the destruction of the temple. Today the continuation of that religious practice is being headed by the global mystery Babylon religious system that is lamb like, meaning christian in appearance.

America is not an advocate to the first beast, but serves the purpose of the global mystery Babylon religious system that has taken over the world by countless wars, this global mystery Babylon religious system is the second beast that continued where the first beast left of from.

 

Your chronology seems a bit whacked.  Compare when Revelation was written with what you're saying.  Babylon is synonymous with rebellion against God or ungodliness.  Its symbolized by a harlot, not a beast or beasts.

[Defending the Name]

No America is no Babylon, because Babylon was declared as fallen in the first century. It is a religious system and not a state per say. It is a religious system that existed way back from the old covenant times and received its head wound in 70 AD by the destruction of the temple. Today the continuation of that religious practice is being headed by the global mystery Babylon religious system that is lamb like, meaning christian in appearance.

America is not an advocate to the first beast, but serves the purpose of the global mystery Babylon religious system that has taken over the world by countless wars, this global mystery Babylon religious system is the second beast that continued where the first beast left of from.

 

Your chronology seems a bit whacked.  Compare when Revelation was written with what you're saying.  Babylon is synonymous with rebellion against God or ungodliness.  Its symbolized by a harlot, not a beast or beasts.

The harlot that rides the first beast. Th first beast is her instrument just like Jezebel used Ahab to execute her will. Religion is the guiding force in politics, the first beast is during the time of the Old Testament . The second beast takes over where the first beast let of and this entity becomes called mystery Babylon and is a christian entity (lamb like). We know this because the scripture states that it has the blood of the martyrs of Jesus of its hands.

Revelation 17:5-6

And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon the Great, the Mother of harlots and abominations of the earth. And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

The first entity Babylon does not have the blood of the martyrs of Jesus but states the following:

Revelation 14:6-8

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Notice the fall of the first Babylon the great harlot is at the time where the everlasting gospel begins to be preached by the first angel message, then followed consecutively by the second angel message who declares at that time that Babylon has fallen.

[Defending the Name]

God made a promise to Abraham that he will raise Him and bring him into the promised land. The land that Abraham was sojourning to find is the dwelling place of God.

Did Christ fulfill the promise?

Yes, all the Old Covenant saints were waiting for the promised Messiah to raise them from their graves and bring them into their promised heavenly land.

The prophecy in Ezekiel 37:11-14 was fulfilled in:

Mat 27:52-53

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

(KJV)

The promise given to Abraham was to the old covenant peoples only and it was fulfilled when christ took with him into heavenly new Jerusalem the many captives and gave them all gifts, as recorded in Ephesians 4:8.

Today's jews that have yet to accept Christ are considered as Gentiles until they do accept Christ. As Jesus gave them a condition by which they will be saved:

Mat 23:39

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

(KJV)

So as it is written the first who the gospel message was intended fir will be the last to receive it.

Today's jews will be the 11th hour workmen and they will also go through tribulation and die. After accepting Christ and then keeping the faith until death, then and onky then can they be saved and have eternal life.

[iamlamad]

 

The angel said:

Come out of her my peole.

Come out of where?what?

 

jesse.

 

Come out of Western Europe, I refer to it as Papal Europe. Although the Pope isn't the official leader, Europe and the Pope often act as a unit, during the long fight with Islam, during colonialism, during the establishment of the EU.  There has been some unity in divided Europe, and that is the whore "Babylon". The Pope struts around as unofficial emperor of Europe, having the title used by the Roman Caesars of the past: Pontifex Maximus

 

In context, this is speaking of the city of Jerusalem, not Europe. The Beast and False prophet will have been in Jerusalem for all of the last half of the 70th week. At this time, AFTER the 7th vial has ended the week, Jesus is about to split the sky as lightning as He returns to earth WITH His bride. We can be SURE, Jesus will not return to the Vatican, for He was never there. No, He will return to Jerusalem and ISRAEL, for there is where the battle of Armageddon will be.

 

It seems at this late time, there will still be Hebrews in Jerusalem, although the city is about to be burned  - OR Jesus is giving us a warning today of what is coming.  Jerusalem will not be a good place to be during the 70th week, just as Berlin would not have been a good place for a Jew in the late 30's or early 40's.

 

LAMAD

[iamlamad]

 

Salty

 

No, of course Israel, God's people, are not the originators of false idols nor false worship of anything. That began in ancient Sumer-Babylon with the one called Sargon, the first king there. False worship was then transferred to the pagan kingdoms of old from there.

 

But what did our Heavenly Father call His people when 'they'... fell away from Him to do that false worship? He associated pagan titles with them, and the idea of spiritual harlotry, just as He did with Jerusalem in the timing of Rev.11:8, so don't expect me to get away from that point in God's Word.

 

 

So if Israel is not the originators of false idol worship, then they clearly cant be the mother of whores? A mother gives birth not so? 

 

But its clear your position then is different in the concept of the word "mother" ... the concept then must be understood in the following example:- I am going to have the "mother" of ALL BBQ's this weekend or I'm going to the "mother" of ALL concerts or I'm going to watch the "mother" of all games.

 

Now if I am to take that concept and apply it to Israel as the Mother of all false worship, then Israel will need to be placed or expand on its history of false worship, like burning babies to a false god and Sexual acts to a false god....Can you really see Israel doing that in the future? After all it needs to be the "mother" of all false worship...burning babies and sexual acts and expand on that. 

 

When the Beast and False prophet get their image set up and the mark, and the false miracles, the deception coming from Jerusalem will be the "mother" of all deceptions. It will be at a level never seen on earth before. It will be so convincing that the entire world will be deceived - all but those whose names are written in heaven.

 

Lamad

[iamlamad]

 

Salty

 

That "mother" idea is another symbol being used in Revelation by our Lord Jesus. When the coming Antichrist sets up false idol worship there at Jerusalem specifically, the very place where our Heavenly Father has chosen to put His Name there, forever, then that "abomination of desolation" event there will symbolically make Jerusalem, the "mother" idea, symbolically becoming the Babylon of old and everything false it once represented.

 

 

 

Interesting.....

 

So the parental symbolism in which Jerusalem has been referred to as a daughter of a whore, we should ignore that type of interpretation when applying it to Mother of Whores as an originator who gives birth to daughter whores? I'm still yet to hear on what grounds we should dismiss this type of concept?

 

AS for your concept its very puzzling...so lets have a look see

 

In Revelations John sees a woman riding a beast, with a label slapped on her forehead " Babylon - Mother of Whores" right? Then we have the antichrist who walks on in and pops up an Idol, right?

 

Point Number 1. Now does this woman ride the beast event appear at the exact same time the Antichrist event of the very moment he sets up his "abomination of desolation" happen simultaneously?

 

Or

 

Point Number 2. Does the woman riding the beast come first and then the Antichrist?

 

Because if Israel is the Mother of all whores point number 1 would mean Israel doesnt exist at this very time, she will only exist at the same time the Antichrist sets up his lovely event to be called Mother of Whores? After all you did say the following:-

 

then that "abomination of desolation" event there will symbolically make Jerusalem, the "mother" idea, symbolically becoming the Babylon 

 

Now if we look at Point number 2 Israel (Woman riding the beast) today is the mother of All whores, God willed 1948 the Mother of All whores, then later the Antichrist comes sets up his Idol - So does Israel get slapped with 2 labels now? Babylon - Mother of Whores v2? Babylon - Mother Mother of Whores? after all you did say the following; - 

 

then that "abomination of desolation" event there will symbolically make Jerusalem, the "mother" idea, symbolically becoming the Babylon 

 

 

Jerusalem will be mystery "babylon the Great" ONLY during the last half of the week, when the Beast and False Prophet are deceiving the entire world.

 

LAMAD

[Last Daze]

 

 

Salty

 

No, of course Israel, God's people, are not the originators of false idols nor false worship of anything. That began in ancient Sumer-Babylon with the one called Sargon, the first king there. False worship was then transferred to the pagan kingdoms of old from there.

 

But what did our Heavenly Father call His people when 'they'... fell away from Him to do that false worship? He associated pagan titles with them, and the idea of spiritual harlotry, just as He did with Jerusalem in the timing of Rev.11:8, so don't expect me to get away from that point in God's Word.

 

 

So if Israel is not the originators of false idol worship, then they clearly cant be the mother of whores? A mother gives birth not so? 

 

But its clear your position then is different in the concept of the word "mother" ... the concept then must be understood in the following example:- I am going to have the "mother" of ALL BBQ's this weekend or I'm going to the "mother" of ALL concerts or I'm going to watch the "mother" of all games.

 

Now if I am to take that concept and apply it to Israel as the Mother of all false worship, then Israel will need to be placed or expand on its history of false worship, like burning babies to a false god and Sexual acts to a false god....Can you really see Israel doing that in the future? After all it needs to be the "mother" of all false worship...burning babies and sexual acts and expand on that. 

 

When the Beast and False prophet get their image set up and the mark, and the false miracles, the deception coming from Jerusalem will be the "mother" of all deceptions. It will be at a level never seen on earth before. It will be so convincing that the entire world will be deceived - all but those whose names are written in heaven.

 

Lamad

 

 

Only the false prophet will be seen though.  Don't expect a human duo.  The beast is a fallen angel that comes up out of the abyss.  The abyss is only used in the context of demons or fallen angels, not humans.

 

But, yes, the deception level will be maxxed out..."all the deception of wickedness" I believe is the phrase.

[Last Daze]

 

 

Salty

 

That "mother" idea is another symbol being used in Revelation by our Lord Jesus. When the coming Antichrist sets up false idol worship there at Jerusalem specifically, the very place where our Heavenly Father has chosen to put His Name there, forever, then that "abomination of desolation" event there will symbolically make Jerusalem, the "mother" idea, symbolically becoming the Babylon of old and everything false it once represented.

 

 

 

Interesting.....

 

So the parental symbolism in which Jerusalem has been referred to as a daughter of a whore, we should ignore that type of interpretation when applying it to Mother of Whores as an originator who gives birth to daughter whores? I'm still yet to hear on what grounds we should dismiss this type of concept?

 

AS for your concept its very puzzling...so lets have a look see

 

In Revelations John sees a woman riding a beast, with a label slapped on her forehead " Babylon - Mother of Whores" right? Then we have the antichrist who walks on in and pops up an Idol, right?

 

Point Number 1. Now does this woman ride the beast event appear at the exact same time the Antichrist event of the very moment he sets up his "abomination of desolation" happen simultaneously?

 

Or

 

Point Number 2. Does the woman riding the beast come first and then the Antichrist?

 

Because if Israel is the Mother of all whores point number 1 would mean Israel doesnt exist at this very time, she will only exist at the same time the Antichrist sets up his lovely event to be called Mother of Whores? After all you did say the following:-

 

then that "abomination of desolation" event there will symbolically make Jerusalem, the "mother" idea, symbolically becoming the Babylon 

 

Now if we look at Point number 2 Israel (Woman riding the beast) today is the mother of All whores, God willed 1948 the Mother of All whores, then later the Antichrist comes sets up his Idol - So does Israel get slapped with 2 labels now? Babylon - Mother of Whores v2? Babylon - Mother Mother of Whores? after all you did say the following; - 

 

then that "abomination of desolation" event there will symbolically make Jerusalem, the "mother" idea, symbolically becoming the Babylon 

 

 

Jerusalem will be mystery "babylon the Great" ONLY during the last half of the week, when the Beast and False Prophet are deceiving the entire world.

 

LAMAD

 

 

The ten leaders destroy Babylon the city when they rise to power.  Then the false prophet rises to power.  Then believers are martyred.  Then God's wrath is brought to bear on those who continue in rebellion against God which is Babylon the religion of ungodliness.  Babylon's ultimate end is when Christ returns (seventh trumpet / vial).  Then Christ rules with a rod of iron.

[iamlamad]

 

 

 

Salty

 

That "mother" idea is another symbol being used in Revelation by our Lord Jesus. When the coming Antichrist sets up false idol worship there at Jerusalem specifically, the very place where our Heavenly Father has chosen to put His Name there, forever, then that "abomination of desolation" event there will symbolically make Jerusalem, the "mother" idea, symbolically becoming the Babylon of old and everything false it once represented.

 

 

 

Interesting.....

 

So the parental symbolism in which Jerusalem has been referred to as a daughter of a whore, we should ignore that type of interpretation when applying it to Mother of Whores as an originator who gives birth to daughter whores? I'm still yet to hear on what grounds we should dismiss this type of concept?

 

AS for your concept its very puzzling...so lets have a look see

 

In Revelations John sees a woman riding a beast, with a label slapped on her forehead " Babylon - Mother of Whores" right? Then we have the antichrist who walks on in and pops up an Idol, right?

 

Point Number 1. Now does this woman ride the beast event appear at the exact same time the Antichrist event of the very moment he sets up his "abomination of desolation" happen simultaneously?

 

Or

 

Point Number 2. Does the woman riding the beast come first and then the Antichrist?

 

Because if Israel is the Mother of all whores point number 1 would mean Israel doesnt exist at this very time, she will only exist at the same time the Antichrist sets up his lovely event to be called Mother of Whores? After all you did say the following:-

 

then that "abomination of desolation" event there will symbolically make Jerusalem, the "mother" idea, symbolically becoming the Babylon 

 

Now if we look at Point number 2 Israel (Woman riding the beast) today is the mother of All whores, God willed 1948 the Mother of All whores, then later the Antichrist comes sets up his Idol - So does Israel get slapped with 2 labels now? Babylon - Mother of Whores v2? Babylon - Mother Mother of Whores? after all you did say the following; - 

 

then that "abomination of desolation" event there will symbolically make Jerusalem, the "mother" idea, symbolically becoming the Babylon 

 

 

Jerusalem will be mystery "babylon the Great" ONLY during the last half of the week, when the Beast and False Prophet are deceiving the entire world.

 

LAMAD

 

 

The ten leaders destroy Babylon the city when they rise to power.  Then the false prophet rises to power.  Then believers are martyred.  Then God's wrath is brought to bear on those who continue in rebellion against God which is Babylon the religion of ungodliness.  Babylon's ultimate end is when Christ returns (seventh trumpet / vial).  Then Christ rules with a rod of iron.

 

Sorry, your "then"s are all out of whack. Did you not read that the ten throw in with the Beast for "one hour?" And that one hour is VERY LATE in the 70th week. The false prophet shows up shortly after the midpoint. Your timing is OFF. And John TELLS US when God's wrath begins - WAY BACK at the 6th seal, before the 70th week begins. The ENTIRE 70th WEEK is God's wrath. Finally, JESUS does NOT RETURN at the 7th vial that ends the week. That is  false doctrine. did you not read chapters 17, 18, and much of 19 that must take place before Jesus returns?

 

LAMAD

[Last Daze]

 

 

 

 

Salty

 

That "mother" idea is another symbol being used in Revelation by our Lord Jesus. When the coming Antichrist sets up false idol worship there at Jerusalem specifically, the very place where our Heavenly Father has chosen to put His Name there, forever, then that "abomination of desolation" event there will symbolically make Jerusalem, the "mother" idea, symbolically becoming the Babylon of old and everything false it once represented.

 

 

 

Interesting.....

 

So the parental symbolism in which Jerusalem has been referred to as a daughter of a whore, we should ignore that type of interpretation when applying it to Mother of Whores as an originator who gives birth to daughter whores? I'm still yet to hear on what grounds we should dismiss this type of concept?

 

AS for your concept its very puzzling...so lets have a look see

 

In Revelations John sees a woman riding a beast, with a label slapped on her forehead " Babylon - Mother of Whores" right? Then we have the antichrist who walks on in and pops up an Idol, right?

 

Point Number 1. Now does this woman ride the beast event appear at the exact same time the Antichrist event of the very moment he sets up his "abomination of desolation" happen simultaneously?

 

Or

 

Point Number 2. Does the woman riding the beast come first and then the Antichrist?

 

Because if Israel is the Mother of all whores point number 1 would mean Israel doesnt exist at this very time, she will only exist at the same time the Antichrist sets up his lovely event to be called Mother of Whores? After all you did say the following:-

 

then that "abomination of desolation" event there will symbolically make Jerusalem, the "mother" idea, symbolically becoming the Babylon 

 

Now if we look at Point number 2 Israel (Woman riding the beast) today is the mother of All whores, God willed 1948 the Mother of All whores, then later the Antichrist comes sets up his Idol - So does Israel get slapped with 2 labels now? Babylon - Mother of Whores v2? Babylon - Mother Mother of Whores? after all you did say the following; - 

 

then that "abomination of desolation" event there will symbolically make Jerusalem, the "mother" idea, symbolically becoming the Babylon 

 

 

Jerusalem will be mystery "babylon the Great" ONLY during the last half of the week, when the Beast and False Prophet are deceiving the entire world.

 

LAMAD

 

 

The ten leaders destroy Babylon the city when they rise to power.  Then the false prophet rises to power.  Then believers are martyred.  Then God's wrath is brought to bear on those who continue in rebellion against God which is Babylon the religion of ungodliness.  Babylon's ultimate end is when Christ returns (seventh trumpet / vial).  Then Christ rules with a rod of iron.

 

Sorry, your "then"s are all out of whack. Did you not read that the ten throw in with the Beast for "one hour?" And that one hour is VERY LATE in the 70th week. The false prophet shows up shortly after the midpoint. Your timing is OFF. And John TELLS US when God's wrath begins - WAY BACK at the 6th seal, before the 70th week begins. The ENTIRE 70th WEEK is God's wrath. Finally, JESUS does NOT RETURN at the 7th vial that ends the week. That is  false doctrine. did you not read chapters 17, 18, and much of 19 that must take place before Jesus returns?

 

LAMAD

 

First off, its not doctrine.  Its an interpretation.  I don't try and pass it off as unchangeable truth.  I realize that I could be wrong, but its what makes the most sense to me.  I can say with a high degree of confidence that none of us has it all figured out.  That being said...

 

Did you not read where the false prophet pulls three of the horns out by their roots?  Sounds more like a throw-down than a throw-in to me.  The beast is an evil angel and the 10 are likely clueless that they are serving his (ultimately God's) purpose.  The beast of Rev 13:1 and the little horn of Daniel 7 are not the same.

 

"...While I was contemplating the horns, behold, another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it.  Daniel 7:8

 

The seventh trumpet and vial occur in quick succession.  The trumpet announces the return of our Lord and the vial being poured out indicates the completion thereof.  The final judgment of Babylon happens during the seventh trumpet / vial return of Christ.

 

When an artist paints a painting, it starts as an outline and then colors are added as the artist sees fit, same as when when a house is built.  The framework goes up first, then other components are added to make the house complete.  In the same way, there are end time prophecies throughout the Bible, some of which are a framework or outline and others add color or details to other prophecies.  Chronology is only relevant in as much as it makes sense such i.e. 1st seal, 2nd seal....1st trumpet, 2nd trumpet....1st vial, 2nd vial...  The fact that something is written in Revelation 17 does not mean that it can't add color to something or help fill in the blanks in say chapter 13.  Context is king.  Take things out of context and you start drifting into irrelevance.

 

Prophecy and dogma don't get along.