Matthew 24, for Jews or for Christians?

[Sister]

Why don't you just take this in the literal sense in which it is written? The literal sense is that NO HUMAN BEING will be allowed into the temple IN HEAVEN until the vials are completed. This has nothing at all to do with salvation on earth.Without a doubt saints on earth will still be being put to death, and they will certainly be escorted to heaven when they die - they will just not be allowed into the temple in heaven.

 

LAMAD

 

 

Lamad

Because of this scripture

 

 1 Corinthians 15:52   In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 

There are only 7 trumpets.  The gathering of the armies at Armageddon to war against the lamb is at the 6th trumpet.  This is the 2nd woe.

The third woe is the next trumpet, the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet,

when Christ appears in the sky and destroys those armies, and Babylon the great.

this is when all are gathered together in Christ,.... the dead raised, and those alive picked up and together they meet the lord in the air.

 

and this one;

 

2 Thessalonians 2:1   Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

 

We are gathered together, at the same time.

 

 

We both know these scriptures, but looks like we are reading into it different.

 The scriptures have to harmonise and not contradict. 

All saints are judged and raised at the same time.

I can't explain it any better, and thankyou for taking the time to debate this with me.

[Salty]

 

I see that bad interpretation of the 200 million locust army of Rev.9 those like Hal Lindsey put in his book The Late Great Planet Earth a long time ago, has many still fooled.

 

That is not the Armageddon army out of the northern quarters that's to come upon Israel on the last day of this world when our Lord Jesus returns. The Armageddon army is given in the Ezekiel 38 & 39 Scripture, specific nations that will come upon Israel on the last day. That nation alignment of Ezekiel is almost complete today.

 

The 200 million locust army of Rev.9 happens DURING the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period, which is not the last day, but instead is the great tribulation timing when the dragon reigns for 42 months. That 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period is the timing of God's two witnesses prophesying in Jerusalem for 1260 days. The killing of the 1/3 in Rev.9 is about a spiritual killing to the soul by deception to the coming Antichrist/false messiah who will play Christ in Jerusalem for the end of this world.

Salty, please try to find this theory in ANY commentary written at any time. lI suspect it is a theory held only by YOU.

 

¹⁸ By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

¹⁹ For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.

²⁰ And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

²¹ Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

 

This is very simply language, and the words make perfect sense in their literal sense. Trying to make they say something different is nonsense. This is very clearly PHYSICAL death. Notice that it is the REST of the people that did not repent. Those that died could not repent, for they were DEAD.

 

LAMAD

 

 

That's just like Hal Lindsey's interpretation in his books (which are not God's Word by the way), he's the one that made that interpretation the most famous in support of the Pre-trib rapture, even though others before him had it too.

 

If you read the writings of the early Church fathers of the 1st and 2nd centuries, you'll discover how they were given to understand much Bible prophecy for the end of this world which many commentators have strayed away from (because of men's doctrines that crept in later). So lot of commentators of later eras must be taken with a grain of salt.

 

Rev.9

¹⁸ By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

¹⁹ For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.

 

It is strange how you would just pass over... those phrases in red while only selecting that in black bold.

 

 

So if that Scripture is being literal, tell me, just HOW do those locusts kill by what is issued out of their MOUTHS?

[Salty]

 

I see that bad interpretation of the 200 million locust army of Rev.9 those like Hal Lindsey put in his book The Late Great Planet Earth a long time ago, has many still fooled.

 

That is not the Armageddon army out of the northern quarters that's to come upon Israel on the last day of this world when our Lord Jesus returns. The Armageddon army is given in the Ezekiel 38 & 39 Scripture, specific nations that will come upon Israel on the last day. That nation alignment of Ezekiel is almost complete today.

 

The 200 million locust army of Rev.9 happens DURING the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period, which is not the last day, but instead is the great tribulation timing when the dragon reigns for 42 months. That 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period is the timing of God's two witnesses prophesying in Jerusalem for 1260 days. The killing of the 1/3 in Rev.9 is about a spiritual killing to the soul by deception to the coming Antichrist/false messiah who will play Christ in Jerusalem for the end of this world.

Salty

 

Read the Scripture;  Rev 9:17 - 19  - The horses and their riders I saw in my vision looked like this...  The heads of the horses looked like this...  The power of the horses was in their mouths and in their tails. Absolutely nothing about locust here. Rev 16:12 - The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings of the East.

 

The soul cannot be killed.

 

This 200 Million is part of the Armageddon army.  Daniel 11:40-45 - At the time of the end the kings of the South will engage him in battle, the king of the North will storm out against him with chariots and cavalry and a great fleet of ships.  He will invade many countries and sweep through them like a flood.  He will also invade the Beautiful Land.  Many countries will fall, But Edom, Moab and the leaders Ammon will be delivered from his hand. (Hmm, this is where Israel is to flee to)... But reports from the East (200 Million) and North will alarm him.  Europe is his army.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

It's not me that needs to study that Rev.9 chapter more carefully...

 

Locust army, 5th trumpet - 1st woe:

 

Rev.9

⁷ And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.

⁸ And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.

⁹ And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.

¹⁰ And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

 

 

Now the later Rev.9 section after the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe starts, which you say has nothing to do with the locusts in the previous part of the chapter:

 

Rev.9

¹⁶ And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

¹⁷ And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.

¹⁸ By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

¹⁹ For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.

 

In the prior section, their breastplates were of iron, and their tails like the sting of scorpions. But in this section the breastplates are of fire, jacinth (a precious stone), and brimstone, and their tails were like serpents. Same locust army, different time of working.

[Salty]

On the 5th trumpet - 1st woe period, when the locusts army is loosed from the pit, they go to prepare the world for the king over them that comes on the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe (the dragon, or serpent - Rev.12:7 forward and Rev.13).

 

When you get to Rev.12:7 forward finally after understanding the Rev.9 & 11 chapters, you're supposed to already be aware of the order of those last 3 trumpet - woe periods. Rev.11 with the final 7th trumpet - 3rd woe shows the end of this world and that Christ has taken reign over all the earth. With the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe we are shown the locust army has a king over them, the angel of the bottomless pit, Satan. And then the Rev.9 symbols for the locusts show us how their power is in the 'mouths' to kill, which is spiritual death, because that 6th trumpet - 2nd woe timing is the tribulation timing, not the Gog-Magog timing.

 

Then in Rev.12:7 with Satan and his angels being cast down to this earth, with a major Woe warning, we were supposed to have already understood the timing when that casting down happens with that 6th trumpet - 2nd woe and thus tribulation timing. And we were supposed to already understand the link of that Rev.12 serpent symbol back to Rev.9.

 

Our Lord Jesus is so good to us with these symbolic clues, that in Rev.11 He even showed us who it is that kills God's two witnesses during that 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period, the beast that ascends up from the bottomless pit, which is Satan, a direct reference to the king of Rev.9, the angel of the bottomless pit.

 

And by the time when we get to Rev.13, we are given even more detail of the kind of timing and what that old serpent, the dragon, does in making war with the saints and his being given power over them for 42 months, which is that 6th trumpet - 2nd woe timing, tribulation timing.

 

So what is it that locust army of Rev.9 does during the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period? DECEIVING by what comes out of their MOUTHS, not literal killing people, but destroying them by spiritual death, because that is tribulation timing when the false king (Satan) will sit in Jerusalem and play God The Son, and demand all to bow in worship to him. If Satan went around killing everyone he would not accomplish that spiritual deception God is going to allow him to do on earth for the last days.

 

But go ahead folks, read your Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye novels, waste your money, keep your mind dull of hearing God's Word and being able to put it together in the mind.

[iamlamad]

 

 

I see that bad interpretation of the 200 million locust army of Rev.9 those like Hal Lindsey put in his book The Late Great Planet Earth a long time ago, has many still fooled.

 

That is not the Armageddon army out of the northern quarters that's to come upon Israel on the last day of this world when our Lord Jesus returns. The Armageddon army is given in the Ezekiel 38 & 39 Scripture, specific nations that will come upon Israel on the last day. That nation alignment of Ezekiel is almost complete today.

 

The 200 million locust army of Rev.9 happens DURING the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period, which is not the last day, but instead is the great tribulation timing when the dragon reigns for 42 months. That 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period is the timing of God's two witnesses prophesying in Jerusalem for 1260 days. The killing of the 1/3 in Rev.9 is about a spiritual killing to the soul by deception to the coming Antichrist/false messiah who will play Christ in Jerusalem for the end of this world.

Salty, please try to find this theory in ANY commentary written at any time. lI suspect it is a theory held only by YOU.

 

¹⁸ By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

¹⁹ For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.

²⁰ And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

²¹ Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

 

This is very simply language, and the words make perfect sense in their literal sense. Trying to make they say something different is nonsense. This is very clearly PHYSICAL death. Notice that it is the REST of the people that did not repent. Those that died could not repent, for they were DEAD.

 

LAMAD

 

 

That's just like Hal Lindsey's interpretation in his books (which are not God's Word by the way), he's the one that made that interpretation the most famous in support of the Pre-trib rapture, even though others before him had it too.

 

If you read the writings of the early Church fathers of the 1st and 2nd centuries, you'll discover how they were given to understand much Bible prophecy for the end of this world which many commentators have strayed away from (because of men's doctrines that crept in later). So lot of commentators of later eras must be taken with a grain of salt.

 

Rev.9

¹⁸ By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

¹⁹ For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.

 

It is strange how you would just pass over... those phrases in red while only selecting that in black bold.

 

 

So if that Scripture is being literal, tell me, just HOW do those locusts kill by what is issued out of their MOUTHS?

 

Perhaps John saw military helicopters. Perhaps it was an angelic army. How would John have described a helicopter firing missiles? They were killed by FIRE, by SMOKE, and by BRIMSTONE. Trying to make these into words is extremely poor exegesis.

 

LAMAD

[Qnts2]

 

 

I see that bad interpretation of the 200 million locust army of Rev.9 those like Hal Lindsey put in his book The Late Great Planet Earth a long time ago, has many still fooled.

 

That is not the Armageddon army out of the northern quarters that's to come upon Israel on the last day of this world when our Lord Jesus returns. The Armageddon army is given in the Ezekiel 38 & 39 Scripture, specific nations that will come upon Israel on the last day. That nation alignment of Ezekiel is almost complete today.

 

The 200 million locust army of Rev.9 happens DURING the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period, which is not the last day, but instead is the great tribulation timing when the dragon reigns for 42 months. That 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period is the timing of God's two witnesses prophesying in Jerusalem for 1260 days. The killing of the 1/3 in Rev.9 is about a spiritual killing to the soul by deception to the coming Antichrist/false messiah who will play Christ in Jerusalem for the end of this world.

Salty, please try to find this theory in ANY commentary written at any time. lI suspect it is a theory held only by YOU.

 

¹⁸ By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

¹⁹ For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.

²⁰ And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

²¹ Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

 

This is very simply language, and the words make perfect sense in their literal sense. Trying to make they say something different is nonsense. This is very clearly PHYSICAL death. Notice that it is the REST of the people that did not repent. Those that died could not repent, for they were DEAD.

 

LAMAD

 

 

That's just like Hal Lindsey's interpretation in his books (which are not God's Word by the way), he's the one that made that interpretation the most famous in support of the Pre-trib rapture, even though others before him had it too.

 

If you read the writings of the early Church fathers of the 1st and 2nd centuries, you'll discover how they were given to understand much Bible prophecy for the end of this world which many commentators have strayed away from (because of men's doctrines that crept in later). So lot of commentators of later eras must be taken with a grain of salt.

 

Rev.9

¹⁸ By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

¹⁹ For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.

 

It is strange how you would just pass over... those phrases in red while only selecting that in black bold.

 

 

So if that Scripture is being literal, tell me, just HOW do those locusts kill by what is issued out of their MOUTHS?

 

 

For the so called early church fathers, we know, even from scripture that some were leaving the sound teachings of the apostles while the apostles were still alive. The so-called early church fathers were in the shift from a Jewish based church to a Gentile based church and theyhad a lot of issues, including a leaning towards anti-semitism which grew greater. Very early on, accusing the Jewish people of Deicide and claiming 'replacement theology/supersession', the church had replaced Israel.  

 

The Epistle of Barnabus was the first to accuse the Jews of Deicide. Justin Martyr accused the Jews of killing Christ, and by 150 ce, Replacement Theology was being embraced.

Origen taught that the Jews had permanently forfeited all their covenants, which now belonged to the church (at least the blessings belonged to the church)..

Tertullian said that divine judgement was upon Israel.

By the time of 341, church councils prohibited Christians from celebrating the Sabbath, festivals, and eating with the Jewish people with a focus of extracting anything to do with the Jewish people from any Church practices.

 

So, in my opinion, basing an end times theology on the teachings of the church fathers is highly precarious as these men for the most part, disliked to hated the Jews so would most likely teach that the Jews had lost all Gods promises.

[Salty]

 

For the so called early church fathers, we know, even from scripture that some were leaving the sound teachings of the apostles while the apostles were still alive. The so-called early church fathers were in the shift from a Jewish based church to a Gentile based church and theyhad a lot of issues, including a leaning towards anti-semitism which grew greater. Very early on, accusing the Jewish people of Deicide and claiming 'replacement theology/supersession', the church had replaced Israel.  

 

The Epistle of Barnabus was the first to accuse the Jews of Deicide. Justin Martyr accused the Jews of killing Christ, and by 150 ce, Replacement Theology was being embraced.

Origen taught that the Jews had permanently forfeited all their covenants, which now belonged to the church (at least the blessings belonged to the church)..

Tertullian said that divine judgement was upon Israel.

By the time of 341, church councils prohibited Christians from celebrating the Sabbath, festivals, and eating with the Jewish people with a focus of extracting anything to do with the Jewish people from any Church practices.

 

So, in my opinion, basing an end times theology on the teachings of the church fathers is highly precarious as these men for the most part, disliked to hated the Jews so would most likely teach that the Jews had lost all Gods promises.

 

 

Yep, that's the basic view the blind Pharisees who rejected Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ had about the early Christian Church, and it continued with unbelieving Jews into later centuries, and is still a lie of Judaism today.

[Salty]

 

 

 

That's just like Hal Lindsey's interpretation in his books (which are not God's Word by the way), he's the one that made that interpretation the most famous in support of the Pre-trib rapture, even though others before him had it too.

 

If you read the writings of the early Church fathers of the 1st and 2nd centuries, you'll discover how they were given to understand much Bible prophecy for the end of this world which many commentators have strayed away from (because of men's doctrines that crept in later). So lot of commentators of later eras must be taken with a grain of salt.

 

Rev.9

¹⁸ By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

¹⁹ For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.

 

It is strange how you would just pass over... those phrases in red while only selecting that in black bold.

 

 

So if that Scripture is being literal, tell me, just HOW do those locusts kill by what is issued out of their MOUTHS?

 

Perhaps John saw military helicopters. Perhaps it was an angelic army. How would John have described a helicopter firing missiles? They were killed by FIRE, by SMOKE, and by BRIMSTONE. Trying to make these into words is extremely poor exegesis.

 

LAMAD

 

 

Black helicopters maybe? Seen any lately? Hal Lindsey likened those Rev.9 symbols to just about anything and everything military WITHOUT explaining the idea of coming out of their MOUTHS, just as you've done. You've actually mimed Lindsey.

 

You make yourself sound foolish when you say words coming out of mouths is extremely poor exegesis. It shows you've even lost common sense reasoning.

[iamlamad]

 

 

 

 

That's just like Hal Lindsey's interpretation in his books (which are not God's Word by the way), he's the one that made that interpretation the most famous in support of the Pre-trib rapture, even though others before him had it too.

 

If you read the writings of the early Church fathers of the 1st and 2nd centuries, you'll discover how they were given to understand much Bible prophecy for the end of this world which many commentators have strayed away from (because of men's doctrines that crept in later). So lot of commentators of later eras must be taken with a grain of salt.

 

Rev.9

¹⁸ By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

¹⁹ For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.

 

It is strange how you would just pass over... those phrases in red while only selecting that in black bold.

 

 

So if that Scripture is being literal, tell me, just HOW do those locusts kill by what is issued out of their MOUTHS?

 

Perhaps John saw military helicopters. Perhaps it was an angelic army. How would John have described a helicopter firing missiles? They were killed by FIRE, by SMOKE, and by BRIMSTONE. Trying to make these into words is extremely poor exegesis.

 

LAMAD

 

 

Black helicopters maybe? Seen any lately? Hal Lindsey likened those Rev.9 symbols to just about anything and everything military WITHOUT explaining the idea of coming out of their MOUTHS, just as you've done. You've actually mimed Lindsey.

 

You make yourself sound foolish when you say words coming out of mouths is extremely poor exegesis. It shows you've even lost common sense reasoning.

 

Some ignore  what it REALLY says; that the power to kill is in FIRE, BRIMSTONE, and SMOKE and these come from both the mouth AND the tail  . These are not words. It is foolish to ignore the plain and simple words written and attempt to make them say something different. Notice the word KILL. This is speaking of physical death. Seen any dragons lately? It seems they used to blow FIRE and SMOKE. Were they real?  What does John tell us? These "horses" had heads like LIONS. We have never seen such a horse. By the way, have you ever seen a lion talk? They just ROAR. Their roar is harmless. Lions don't try to deceive someone, they try to KILL. John goes on to say "out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone." This is not words, this is something that KILLS.  John goes on; "By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed—by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths." So these horses with lion's heads spit fire, smoke and brimstone. These horse are even MORE strange; they have heads in their tails! John writes, "their power is in their ...tails; for their tails are like serpents, having heads; and with them they do harm. I am convinced this is a heavenly army. There are no horses like this on earth. Neither do I think they are helicopters. This is an army sent by God to KILL 1/3 of earth's population. Will they kill at random, or do they have specific targets? John does not tell us.

 

People with little sense try to make this say what it does NOT say, that this is not really physical death, it is deception leading to spiritual death. They are not really killed, they are deceived by WORDS. When anyone takes something written in a literal sense and puts some other meaning to it, it ends up being nonsense. I have no trouble believing this army comes to KILL 1/3 of mankind.

 

LAMAD

[Qnts2]

 

 

For the so called early church fathers, we know, even from scripture that some were leaving the sound teachings of the apostles while the apostles were still alive. The so-called early church fathers were in the shift from a Jewish based church to a Gentile based church and theyhad a lot of issues, including a leaning towards anti-semitism which grew greater. Very early on, accusing the Jewish people of Deicide and claiming 'replacement theology/supersession', the church had replaced Israel.  

 

The Epistle of Barnabus was the first to accuse the Jews of Deicide. Justin Martyr accused the Jews of killing Christ, and by 150 ce, Replacement Theology was being embraced.

Origen taught that the Jews had permanently forfeited all their covenants, which now belonged to the church (at least the blessings belonged to the church)..

Tertullian said that divine judgement was upon Israel.

By the time of 341, church councils prohibited Christians from celebrating the Sabbath, festivals, and eating with the Jewish people with a focus of extracting anything to do with the Jewish people from any Church practices.

 

So, in my opinion, basing an end times theology on the teachings of the church fathers is highly precarious as these men for the most part, disliked to hated the Jews so would most likely teach that the Jews had lost all Gods promises.

 

 

Yep, that's the basic view the blind Pharisees who rejected Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ had about the early Christian Church, and it continued with unbelieving Jews into later centuries, and is still a lie of Judaism today.

 

 

Well, you just showed your view of Jews and Judaism, and it is not very pretty. So Jews and Judaism are liars.

 

But the truth is, what I wrote is historical, and is based on direct quotes of the people in question.