Science and Miracles

[a-seeker]

Hi everyone,

 

I feel like a reminder should be posted that this thread appears on a "Faith/Science" subforum.  It is odd to me that so many apparently uninterested in science would respond to this OP and with such evangelical passion.  There is nothing scandalous or controversial in the question.  If you think there is, you are reading something into it (probably because I am listed as a "Seeker", which is not entirely true--I am a Christian).  Or because other posts of mine were "controversial".  This post is not about the possibility of miracles.  If you are not interested in what miracles are, then that is okay.  I am.  This is a matter of curiousity, nothing more.

 

clb

[Fez]

 

 

 

This is one of those "how big is your God?" kind of questions. In the first verse of Genesis God created (bara, cause to exist) about 10^80 atoms. There are jewish commentaries that describe Him as speaking them into existence, presciently describing John 1:3- ...and without (the Word) was not any thing made that was made.

 

If you can get your head around that, the rest is trivial.

       If your God is smaller than that, may I suggest an upgrade?

 

Not quite.

 

How big is your God is a question for skeptics.  I am not skeptical about the possibility of multiplying bread; I am simply interested in the natural processes that such a miracle must have entailed.  Either the extra bread really was bread; or it wasn't.  The gospels suggest it really was bread--so then, once we didn't have bread, and then we did--real bread, made up of all the molecules of ordinary bread.  I am simply curious how that process occurred.

 

clb

 

 I am simply interested in the natural processes that such a miracle must have entailed.

 

Why does God have to do things by natural process? People have given you examples of miracles, quoted scripture of the creation of all, and yet you still don't grasp who God is, and what he is capable of (which is anything). 

 

It's called faith, the very foundation of our Christian belief.

 

Do you believe the miracles happened as the Word states? Water to wine, bread in abundance, manna, raising from the dead, the earth swallowing tribes, the parting of the seas, the bringing of rain,  the defeat of thousands by hundreds, pillars of fire, virgin birth, alters cracked in two, axe heads floating, etc? Do you believe the miracles occurred?

 

As simple yes or no would suffice. (I don't need you to explain them to me, to rationalize them to me Connor, I just need a simple answer).

 

Yes or No

 

Well, first a "No, you don't" to this:

 

As simple yes or no would suffice. (I don't need you to explain them to me, to rationalize them to me Connor, I just need a simple answer).

 

 

 

 

Why in the world would you need to know whether I believe in miracles?  What do you care if I do or don't, Fez?

 

As to this:

 

Why does God have to do things by natural process? People have given you examples of miracles, quoted scripture of the creation of all, and yet you still don't grasp who God is, and what he is capable of (which is anything). 

 

 

 

 

I don't think you've grasped what miracles are.  I would start with C.S. Lewis' Miracles and then go on to the books that his will lead you to.

 

clb

 

Thank you, you have answered my question by not answering. 

 

Why in the world would you need to know whether I believe in miracles?  What do you care if I do or don't, Fez?

 

And to answer. Because this is a Ministry site, Ministering to believers and the lost, and unbelievers, and I care because the bible is full of miracles, and I believe the bible.

 

As I said, thank you for answering my question.

[He giveth more grace]

As far as edification, 2 things.  I saw an OP the other day that was titled "Would you parachute out of a plane?"  I glanced through the responses and don't believe I saw a single quote from the Bible, or the name of God mentioned, nor of Jesus.  This is not to mock that thread--the OP was simply curious about something, so am I. Secondly, I feel "edified" to think about God's operations on the universe; you may not, but other people may.

All things on Worthy doesn't edify, as some would define edification, we like to have fun sometimes, we post videos of cats slapping dogs, all in the appropriate forums.

IMO, wanting to know just how a miracle comes to be, is none of our business and is poor science - mixing the infinite with the finite. IMO, this desire is meddling with God. That is all I can say in this medium.

[a-seeker]

 

 

 

 

This is one of those "how big is your God?" kind of questions. In the first verse of Genesis God created (bara, cause to exist) about 10^80 atoms. There are jewish commentaries that describe Him as speaking them into existence, presciently describing John 1:3- ...and without (the Word) was not any thing made that was made.

 

If you can get your head around that, the rest is trivial.

       If your God is smaller than that, may I suggest an upgrade?

 

Not quite.

 

How big is your God is a question for skeptics.  I am not skeptical about the possibility of multiplying bread; I am simply interested in the natural processes that such a miracle must have entailed.  Either the extra bread really was bread; or it wasn't.  The gospels suggest it really was bread--so then, once we didn't have bread, and then we did--real bread, made up of all the molecules of ordinary bread.  I am simply curious how that process occurred.

 

clb

 

 I am simply interested in the natural processes that such a miracle must have entailed.

 

Why does God have to do things by natural process? People have given you examples of miracles, quoted scripture of the creation of all, and yet you still don't grasp who God is, and what he is capable of (which is anything). 

 

It's called faith, the very foundation of our Christian belief.

 

Do you believe the miracles happened as the Word states? Water to wine, bread in abundance, manna, raising from the dead, the earth swallowing tribes, the parting of the seas, the bringing of rain,  the defeat of thousands by hundreds, pillars of fire, virgin birth, alters cracked in two, axe heads floating, etc? Do you believe the miracles occurred?

 

As simple yes or no would suffice. (I don't need you to explain them to me, to rationalize them to me Connor, I just need a simple answer).

 

Yes or No

 

Well, first a "No, you don't" to this:

 

As simple yes or no would suffice. (I don't need you to explain them to me, to rationalize them to me Connor, I just need a simple answer).

 

 

 

 

Why in the world would you need to know whether I believe in miracles?  What do you care if I do or don't, Fez?

 

As to this:

 

Why does God have to do things by natural process? People have given you examples of miracles, quoted scripture of the creation of all, and yet you still don't grasp who God is, and what he is capable of (which is anything). 

 

 

 

 

I don't think you've grasped what miracles are.  I would start with C.S. Lewis' Miracles and then go on to the books that his will lead you to.

 

clb

 

Thank you, you have answered my question by not answering. 

 

Why in the world would you need to know whether I believe in miracles?  What do you care if I do or don't, Fez?

 

And to answer. Because this is a Ministry site, Ministering to believers and the lost, and unbelievers, and I care because the bible is full of miracles, and I believe the bible.

 

As I said, thank you for answering my question.

 

 

Your welcome; glad I could help you file me away under whatever category satisfies you Fez,

 

clb

 

Does anyone find it ironic that one of the books I referred to above was Lewis' Miracles--a book that obviously defends the miraculous events recorded in the Bible?  Anyone?

Edited August 30, 2014 by ConnorLiamBrown

[a-seeker]

 

As far as edification, 2 things.  I saw an OP the other day that was titled "Would you parachute out of a plane?"  I glanced through the responses and don't believe I saw a single quote from the Bible, or the name of God mentioned, nor of Jesus.  This is not to mock that thread--the OP was simply curious about something, so am I. Secondly, I feel "edified" to think about God's operations on the universe; you may not, but other people may.

All things on Worthy doesn't edify, as some would define edification, we like to have fun sometimes, we post videos of cats slapping dogs, all in the appropriate forums.

IMO, wanting to know just how a miracle comes to be, is none of our business and is poor science - mixing the infinite with the finite. IMO, this desire is meddling with God. That is all I can say in this medium.

 

 

Interesting opinion (I appreciate that you at least recognized it was an opinion).

 

I recall hearing a sermon once in which the preacher broke down all the biological processes that occurred when our Lord healed a man of his blindness.  The point of the sermon was to demonstrate how in control of nature God was that not even the most minute, microscopic details escaped HIm.  Many people felt it an edifying sermon; I am certain the preacher intended it as an occasion to glorify God.  But in your opinion, God was not glorified by the sermon and the preacher was merely meddling....correct?

 

clb

Edited August 30, 2014 by ConnorLiamBrown

[He giveth more grace]

God bless, Connor.

[Guest]

Rotten Bread

 

Their worship is a farce, for they teach man-made ideas as commands from God.'" Matthew 15:9 (NLT)

 

Will Not Pass HIS Muster

 

I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. Isaiah 42:8

 

~

 

I recall hearing a sermon once in which the preacher broke down all the biological processes that occurred when our Lord healed a man of his blindness.

 

The point of the sermon was to demonstrate how in control of nature God was that not even the most minute, microscopic details escaped HIM.  

 

Many people felt it an edifying sermon; I am certain the preacher intended it as an occasion to glorify God.  

 

But in your opinion, God was not glorified by the sermon and the preacher was merely meddling....correct?

 

 

Meddle

 

Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

 

And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

 

And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. Genesis 2:1-3

 

Not

 

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: Ephesians 3:9

 

Preacher

 

Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed. Isaiah 66:5

 

Mocker Of His Holy Word

 

By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, their starry host by the breath of his mouth. Psalms 33:6 (NIV)

 

And The Only Question I Have For You

 

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2:14

 

Beloved Brother, When Will

 

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:24

 

You Believe?

 

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63

 

Love, Joe

[chloe_fantastic]

 

It is odd to me that so many apparently uninterested in science would respond to this OP and with such evangelical passion.

It's odd to me that you're surprised to find evangelical passion in any believer, anywhere, much more so on a ministry-based message board. Evangelical passion should be a believer's default setting.

[He giveth more grace]

 

It is odd to me that so many apparently uninterested in science would respond to this OP and with such evangelical passion.

It's odd to me that you're surprised to find evangelical passion in any believer, anywhere, much more so on a ministry-based message board. Evangelical passion should be a believer's default setting.

Touché, Chloe. {thumps up}

[a-seeker]

 

 

 

It is odd to me that so many apparently uninterested in science would respond to this OP and with such evangelical passion.

It's odd to me that you're surprised to find evangelical passion in any believer, anywhere, much more so on a ministry-based message board. Evangelical passion should be a believer's default setting.

Touché, Chloe. {thumps up}

 

 

 

 

Whom are you GUYS EVANGELIZING TO???????????????????????

 

 

This is a simple question about the mechanics behind miracles.  I made it clear in the OP that I believe in miracles.  I have concluded my posts with "I believe in Jesus the risen Lord".  I can't be saved "again".

 

What if I was confused about imaginary numbers; would you start asking me whether I believe that God created the multiplication table?!  Certainly that would show evangelical passion; but would it be appropriate to the question?

 

What if I was asking how to sew; would I be advised to confess my sins and ask God to show me how to thread a needle?!  Passionately evangelical?  For sure.  The wrong context for such passion?  For sure.

 

Let us look at other responses to contrast with yours:

 

here to the question of the multiplication of bread (an event I believe in)

 

 

This is an interesting train of thought. God can create something (atoms) from nothing. 

 

 

An appropriate response; the kind I was hoping for.  Nothing blasphemous here guys.  a simple thought to a simple question.

 

 

Here is another one, from a highly respected member of this site...

 

If you study "m" string physics it becomes possible to transition between dimensions and move through anything solid on earth.   The strings are not vibrating at the same frequency and they are not really part of our forth dimension at times.

 

it's my understanding that the spirit world we hear so much about are dimensions above the fifth and the angels can come and go at will.    God exists at the tenth or eleventh and that realm is just crazy for us to try and comprehend.

 

 

Now, I didn't understand half of it, but I can tell he took my question as it was meant to be and contributed.

 

Btw, hegiveth, by accusing me of meddling youre implicitly accusing Other One of meddling, since he took my question seriously and attempted an answer.

 

clb

 

(I mean really, if you all want to give me hell I promise there are more provocative OPs of mine on this site).