What is the purpose of the judgement in Revelation 20?

[Salty]

 

 

 

Nothing covered in the 1 Thess.5 chapter of the events of Christ gathering His saints. The gathering event instead Paul gave in the previous 1 Thess.4 chapter.

 

What Paul was giving us in the 1 Thess.5 chapter was the timing of the 1 Thess.4 events of Christ's coming and gathering of His Church. Paul was covering 'day of The Lord' event/timing in the 1 Thess.5 chapter.

 

But what the Pre-trib Rapture school has done with 1 Thess.5, is ADD the idea of escape prior to the tribulation, just because Paul made the statement that we are not appointed to God's wrath.

 

Paul's actual meaning there is that when the 'day of The Lord' comes, we are not appointed to God's cup of wrath that will be poured out upon the wicked on earth on that specific Day. That's why Apostle Paul said there when 'they' shall say, "Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them", not us of Christ's Church.

 

1 Thess.5

² For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

³ For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

⁴ But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

 

 

What "day"? That "day of the Lord".

 

That is the Day of Christ's coming to gather His Church. Apostle Paul also taught about that Day in 2 Thess.2 with the KJV phrase "day of Christ". The OT prophets covered the events on that Day also, as it will end this present world time, the dragon's reign on earth, and thus the tribulation.

 

Who is Paul pointing to with that idea of their being like a woman travailing with child? Not Christ's Faithful, but instead the deceived, i.e., those in darkness that sleep in the night who will be thinking that "Peace and safety".

 

 

IN fact, I agree with you here: "That is the Day of Christ's coming to gather His Church."  However, you see this day FAR differently that Paul did. Paul wrote of the day of His coming FOR His bride LONG (over 7 years) before His coming WITH His bride, for the battle of Armageddon.

 

Some try to make the Day of Christ as different from the Day of the Lord. to me, Christ IS LORD, so it means the same.

 

AGain you are mistaken, for Paul never left the subject of the rapture in chapter 5. Rather, he shows us the TIMING of the rapture.

 

 

You are terribly confused because of heeding man's Pre-Trib Rapture theory.

 

When Apostle Paul taught about the Day of The Lord coming "as a thief in the night", there's NOTHING there about some rapture prior to the mid point of Daniel's symbolic "one week" of 7 years, you are adding that per the false Pre-Trib Rapture theory.

 

Instead, Paul was DEFINITE that Christ's coming and gathering of His saints would be AFTER the Antichrist's coming, as per the 2 Thess.2 Scripture!

 

 

2 Thess.2

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,

² That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

³ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

⁴ Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

⁵ Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

⁶ And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

⁷ For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

⁸ And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:

 

 

By your trying to change that order means you have twisted Apostle Paul's words to suit your own... fancy, because of heeding men's doctrines of the Pre-trib Rapture theory, a theory that began with John Darby in 1830's Great Britain, a theory that the Christian Church never had before then.

[iamlamad]

 

 

 

 

Nothing covered in the 1 Thess.5 chapter of the events of Christ gathering His saints. The gathering event instead Paul gave in the previous 1 Thess.4 chapter.

 

What Paul was giving us in the 1 Thess.5 chapter was the timing of the 1 Thess.4 events of Christ's coming and gathering of His Church. Paul was covering 'day of The Lord' event/timing in the 1 Thess.5 chapter.

 

But what the Pre-trib Rapture school has done with 1 Thess.5, is ADD the idea of escape prior to the tribulation, just because Paul made the statement that we are not appointed to God's wrath.

 

Paul's actual meaning there is that when the 'day of The Lord' comes, we are not appointed to God's cup of wrath that will be poured out upon the wicked on earth on that specific Day. That's why Apostle Paul said there when 'they' shall say, "Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them", not us of Christ's Church.

 

1 Thess.5

² For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

³ For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

⁴ But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

 

 

What "day"? That "day of the Lord".

 

That is the Day of Christ's coming to gather His Church. Apostle Paul also taught about that Day in 2 Thess.2 with the KJV phrase "day of Christ". The OT prophets covered the events on that Day also, as it will end this present world time, the dragon's reign on earth, and thus the tribulation.

 

Who is Paul pointing to with that idea of their being like a woman travailing with child? Not Christ's Faithful, but instead the deceived, i.e., those in darkness that sleep in the night who will be thinking that "Peace and safety".

 

 

IN fact, I agree with you here: "That is the Day of Christ's coming to gather His Church."  However, you see this day FAR differently that Paul did. Paul wrote of the day of His coming FOR His bride LONG (over 7 years) before His coming WITH His bride, for the battle of Armageddon.

 

Some try to make the Day of Christ as different from the Day of the Lord. to me, Christ IS LORD, so it means the same.

 

AGain you are mistaken, for Paul never left the subject of the rapture in chapter 5. Rather, he shows us the TIMING of the rapture.

 

 

You are terribly confused because of heeding man's Pre-Trib Rapture theory.

 

When Apostle Paul taught about the Day of The Lord coming "as a thief in the night", there's NOTHING there about some rapture prior to the mid point of Daniel's symbolic "one week" of 7 years, you are adding that per the false Pre-Trib Rapture theory.

 

Instead, Paul was DEFINITE that Christ's coming and gathering of His saints would be AFTER the Antichrist's coming, as per the 2 Thess.2 Scripture!

 

 

2 Thess.2

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,

² That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

³ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

⁴ Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

⁵ Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

⁶ And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

⁷ For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

⁸ And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:

 

 

By your trying to change that order means you have twisted Apostle Paul's words to suit your own... fancy, because of heeding men's doctrines of the Pre-trib Rapture theory, a theory that began with John Darby in 1830's Great Britain, a theory that the Christian Church never had before then.

 

Salty, we have been over this time and time again. You only THINK this is Paul's meaning. If you take off your preconceived glasses and study the ENTIRE PASSAGE, your theory does not make sense.

 

Take off your preconceptions, put on your thinking cap, and let's go over this again.

 

2 Thessalonians 2

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

This is Paul's THEME. Therefore, the gathering MUST BE INCLUDED in this passage. Any theory about what Paul is saying that does not include the gathering will be wrong. (Note NOT the Day of the Lord, but the GATHERING. These two terms are NOT synonymous.)

Is it the day of "Christ" or is in the day of the "Lord?" The Greek texts are divided on this word. Does it make any difference? Christ is Lord. "For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord." It makes no difference: either statement is speaking of the same day: the Day of the Lord spoken about many times in the Old Testament. It is a day of Darkness, a day of terror; a day when God will destroy the earth and the sinners in the earth. This translation used is a poor translation: It is not that the DAY is "at Hand," it is that the day has already come or already started. Young's Literal:  "as that the day of Christ hath arrived."

So WHY were they "shaken in mind" or "troubled" if they began to think that the DAY had arrived and they were in it? If Paul had taught them that the rapture would come at the end of the Day, they would have no reason whatsoever to be troubled. (Posttribbers know this is true, but it does not fit their theory so they ignore this point.) On the other hand, if Paul had taught them that the rapture would come BEFORE the Day, and now they thought the DAY had started and they were still here.....NO WONDER they were troubled! Is this not the classic argument of posttribbers: that we who believe in a pretrib rapture will fall to pieces (so to speak) when we discover the DAY has begun and we are still here?  Right on this thread we have heard this argument over and over! Surely any astute posttribber would recognize Paul's argument in this verse as the very same they use: these folks were SCARED THEY HAD MISSED THE RAPTURE. It is the only thing that makes sense.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

[iamlamad]

 

Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. Revelation 12:7-9 (ESV)

 

Beloved, Maybe It Is Time To Re-Evaluate The Unwise Application Of "Science"

 

I don't really see how this refutes what I wrote about not taking "stars falling to earth" literally.

 

Stars are typically a million times bigger than the earth. if ANY star (suppose our sun) fell to the earth, the earth would be no more.

 

LAMAD

[Salty]

 

You are terribly confused because of heeding man's Pre-Trib Rapture theory.

 

When Apostle Paul taught about the Day of The Lord coming "as a thief in the night", there's NOTHING there about some rapture prior to the mid point of Daniel's symbolic "one week" of 7 years, you are adding that per the false Pre-Trib Rapture theory.

 

Instead, Paul was DEFINITE that Christ's coming and gathering of His saints would be AFTER the Antichrist's coming, as per the 2 Thess.2 Scripture!

 

 

2 Thess.2

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,

² That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

³ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

⁴ Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

⁵ Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

⁶ And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

⁷ For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

⁸ And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:

 

 

By your trying to change that order means you have twisted Apostle Paul's words to suit your own... fancy, because of heeding men's doctrines of the Pre-trib Rapture theory, a theory that began with John Darby in 1830's Great Britain, a theory that the Christian Church never had before then.

 

Salty, we have been over this time and time again. You only THINK this is Paul's meaning. If you take off your preconceived glasses and study the ENTIRE PASSAGE, your theory does not make sense.

 

Take off your preconceptions, put on your thinking cap, and let's go over this again.

 

2 Thessalonians 2

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

This is Paul's THEME. Therefore, the gathering MUST BE INCLUDED in this passage. Any theory about what Paul is saying that does not include the gathering will be wrong. (Note NOT the Day of the Lord, but the GATHERING. These two terms are NOT synonymous.)

 

 

 

Only reason I bother to reply is because of your falseness on what Day Paul spoke of there...

 

2 Thess.2

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,

² That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

 

 

Let's do... talk about that phrase "the day of Christ" for a moment. The most accurate Greek manuscripts have Greek 'kurios' (Lord) instead of the Greek word 'Christos' (Christ), and were translated as such per the ASV, RSV, WYC, CJB, DRA, ESV, ISV, NASB, NIV, OJB, and even the NKJV which has a note that the text says "Lord".

 

 

But... if that is not enough to show that text word is actually 'lord' in the Greek, surely one like John Darby who began the Pre-trib Rapture theory in 1830's Britain you would agree with...

 

2 Thess.2

² that ye be not soon shaken in mind, nor troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as [if it were] by us, as that the day of the Lord is present.

(DARBY)

 

2 Thess.2

² that you not become too hastily disturbed from your spiritual composure nor frightened either by a ruach or by a dibur (saying, utterance) or by an iggeret (letter), as if from us, saying that the YOM HASHEM (Day of the L-rd, AMOS 5:18) has come.

(ORTHODOX JEWISH BIBLE)

 

 

That difference shouldn't even pose as a problem, since Apostle Paul's language is clear in all the NT Bible versions that Christ comes to reveal and destroy that Antichrist "with the brightness of His coming" per 2 Thess.2:

 

2 Thess.2

⁸ And then the Ish HaMufkarut (the Man of Lawlessness [Anti-Moshiach]) will be revealed, whom HaAdon [Moshiach Yehoshua, Malachi 3:1; Ps 110:1; Dan 7:13-14] will destroy by the RUACH (YESHAYAH 11:4) of His mouth and will wipe out at the appearance of His Bi’as (HaMoshiach, His Parousia, Coming).

(ORTHODOX JEWISH BIBLE)

 

2 Thess.2

⁸ and then the lawless one shall be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus shall consume with the breath of His mouth, and shall annul by the appearing of His coming;

(DARBY)

 

Apostle Paul was not speaking of 2 or 3 or 4, or more comings (parousia) of our Lord Jesus. He was speaking of the same coming as per 2 Thess.2:1. He said that false one must be "revealed" before Christ's coming and gathering of His saints per that v.1.

[iamlamad]

 

 

You are terribly confused because of heeding man's Pre-Trib Rapture theory.

 

When Apostle Paul taught about the Day of The Lord coming "as a thief in the night", there's NOTHING there about some rapture prior to the mid point of Daniel's symbolic "one week" of 7 years, you are adding that per the false Pre-Trib Rapture theory.

 

Instead, Paul was DEFINITE that Christ's coming and gathering of His saints would be AFTER the Antichrist's coming, as per the 2 Thess.2 Scripture!

 

 

2 Thess.2

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,

² That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

³ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

⁴ Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

⁵ Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

⁶ And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

⁷ For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

⁸ And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:

 

 

By your trying to change that order means you have twisted Apostle Paul's words to suit your own... fancy, because of heeding men's doctrines of the Pre-trib Rapture theory, a theory that began with John Darby in 1830's Great Britain, a theory that the Christian Church never had before then.

 

Salty, we have been over this time and time again. You only THINK this is Paul's meaning. If you take off your preconceived glasses and study the ENTIRE PASSAGE, your theory does not make sense.

 

Take off your preconceptions, put on your thinking cap, and let's go over this again.

 

2 Thessalonians 2

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

This is Paul's THEME. Therefore, the gathering MUST BE INCLUDED in this passage. Any theory about what Paul is saying that does not include the gathering will be wrong. (Note NOT the Day of the Lord, but the GATHERING. These two terms are NOT synonymous.)

 

 

 

Only reason I bother to reply is because of your falseness on what Day Paul spoke of there...

 

2 Thess.2

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,

² That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

 

 

Let's do... talk about that phrase "the day of Christ" for a moment. The most accurate Greek manuscripts have Greek 'kurios' (Lord) instead of the Greek word 'Christos' (Christ), and were translated as such per the ASV, RSV, WYC, CJB, DRA, ESV, ISV, NASB, NIV, OJB, and even the NKJV which has a note that the text says "Lord".

 

 

But... if that is not enough to show that text word is actually 'lord' in the Greek, surely one like John Darby who began the Pre-trib Rapture theory in 1830's Britain you would agree with...

 

2 Thess.2

² that ye be not soon shaken in mind, nor troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as [if it were] by us, as that the day of the Lord is present.

(DARBY)

 

2 Thess.2

² that you not become too hastily disturbed from your spiritual composure nor frightened either by a ruach or by a dibur (saying, utterance) or by an iggeret (letter), as if from us, saying that the YOM HASHEM (Day of the L-rd, AMOS 5:18) has come.

(ORTHODOX JEWISH BIBLE)

 

 

That difference shouldn't even pose as a problem, since Apostle Paul's language is clear in all the NT Bible versions that Christ comes to reveal and destroy that Antichrist "with the brightness of His coming" per 2 Thess.2:

 

2 Thess.2

⁸ And then the Ish HaMufkarut (the Man of Lawlessness [Anti-Moshiach]) will be revealed, whom HaAdon [Moshiach Yehoshua, Malachi 3:1; Ps 110:1; Dan 7:13-14] will destroy by the RUACH (YESHAYAH 11:4) of His mouth and will wipe out at the appearance of His Bi’as (HaMoshiach, His Parousia, Coming).

(ORTHODOX JEWISH BIBLE)

 

2 Thess.2

⁸ and then the lawless one shall be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus shall consume with the breath of His mouth, and shall annul by the appearing of His coming;

(DARBY)

 

Apostle Paul was not speaking of 2 or 3 or 4, or more comings (parousia) of our Lord Jesus. He was speaking of the same coming as per 2 Thess.2:1. He said that false one must be "revealed" before Christ's coming and gathering of His saints per that v.1.

 

That is your opinion, but not Paul's opinion. There is nothing in the 1 thes. coming about "brightness" nor coming to destroy the antichrist.

 

I AGREE with you that Paul was speaking of the very same "day of the Lord" that the Old Testament prophets wrote of. However, SOME think that this word is synonymous with the rapture. It is NOT. Jesus comes FOR His bride, and that event is the trigger for the Day of the Lord. Paul shows us they are back to back events, NOT THE SAME event.

 

Indeed, simply logic and common sense, if one BELIEVES scripture, proves that Paul's rapture is not the same coming as is shown in Rev. 19. It is simply IMPOSSIBLE in a posttrib rapture (a rapture as Jesus descends as shown in Rev. 19) for the Bride of Christ to make it to her own marriage, simply because John shows us the marriage will take place IN HEAVEN before Jesus descends.

 

CASE CLOSED.  There should be no more arguments. Posttribbers theory proves they will be forced to miss the marriage and supper.

 

Next, if all the believers are changed into resurrection bodies as Jesus descends [as shown in Rev. 19] then there are no believers left in natural bodies to enter the millennial reign.

 

These are two insurmountable problems for posttribbers - problems no posttribber has even solved. One writer suggests that Jesus returns to earth TWICE in Rev. 19 (one not shown); first to get His bride and take them to the wedding, then again to fight the battle of armageddon.

 

The TRUTH is, Jesus comes pretrib FOR His bride and posttrib WITH His bride. All problems solved.

 

LAMAD

[Persuaded]

"Day of Christ" is not the same as the "Day of the Lord".

 

"Day of Christ" occurs a handful of places in Paul's writings, and is the day the believer sees Christ, either by dying or rapture, but always with a note of anticipation, something for the believer to look forward to:

 

[1Co 1:8 NKJV] who will also confirm you to the end, [that you may be] blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[Phl 1:6 NKJV] being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete [it] until the day of Jesus Christ;

[Phl 1:10 NKJV] that you may approve the things that are excellent, that you may be sincere and without offense till the day of Christ,

[Phl 2:16 NKJV] holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain.

 

The passage in 2 Thes 2:2 is correctly rendered "Day of the Lord" as in the critical texts in this case- one of the few places that the KJV has it wrong. The Day of the Lord is characterized by dread and destruction, judgment and darkness, and several times is rendered "the great and terrible Day of the Lord".

 

So in 2 Thes 2 the Day of the Lord, the OT's yowm Jehovah, is what comes after the apostasy, after the man of sin is revealed. There is nothing in the passage to refute a pretrib rapture.

 

Also, it's helpful to understand that in many passages the "Day of the Lord" can refer to a period of time and not necessarily a single Day. In some cases it seems to apply to the entire wrath portion of Revelation, rather than the climactic last day.

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Everyone

    May Gods Peace & Love enter in all of your hearts and be filled with His Joy this beautiful day we are so Blessed to see!!!!

    I am so disappointed in going over some (many)posts in this thread,,,,& I can only hope my words can inspire some to try & be mindful of Who we represent......."Your wrong,wrong again"...."take off your pre-conceived glasses" & so on.....c'mon really?

      Even if the message is good it is spoiled by the absence of patience,love,kindness,compassion,,,,,,plus,there is not one individual here that does not see dimly & in part.....it is from Jesus own Words

       God speaks through us all to one another in a most Gentle & Wonderful way that we are all a Blessing to each other .........lets try to remember that we are not in a private conversation but viewed publically as Ambassadors for Jesus......I try to remember how much love He showed me when I thought I knew it all          Glory to God!

                                                                                   With love-in Christ,Kwik

[Last Daze]

So WHO in Paul's mind is the restrainer? He said "now we know." Of course it is the Holy Spirit working through the CHURCH that is restraining the lawless one, and preventing his revealing until the right time. At that right time the church will be raptured and THEN the man of sin will be revealed.

LAMAD

 

 

"And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way."  2 Thess 2:6,7

 

The restrainer being the church really doesn't make that much sense.  More likely, what's doing the restraining is the abyss.  And what's being restrained is the evil angel that comes up out of the abyss per Rev 17.  The false prophet (man of sin) is empowered by this fallen angel so he can't be revealed until this evil angel is released from the restraint of the abyss that is restraining him with restraints.  *Redundancy added for emphasis.

 

We know that the abyss is a prison, a place of restraint for fallen angels per Rev 20.  There is an angel that has a key to the abyss.  Granted, we're not given a lot of details about the hierarchy or roles and responsibilities of angels but its a reasonable assumption that this angel with the key is the one that is taken out of the way so that this fallen angel is released from the abyss so that the man of sin is subsequently revealed.

 

How can something that you have been given power over be a hindrance to you?  The false prophet has been given power over the saints.  The saints are "given into his hand" and "he makes war with the saints and overcomes them".  Doesn't sound like much of a restraining influence to me.

 

Per Rev 7..."A great multitude which no one could count"..."These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation".  The great tribulation is clearly a time of persecution tied to the abomination of desolation per Jesus in Matthew 24.  If the church is raptured before the revealing of the false prophet and subsequent abomination of desolation, who makes up the great multitude that no one could count?  There is zero support for some "great revival".  On the contrary..."For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness."  Not very fertile ground for a revival I don't think, much less a great multitude beyond number.

 

That's why I don't see the church as being the restrainer.  Why would you think that its the church?  Why would the church have to be gone first?

[Last Daze]

Blessings Everyone

      Even if the message is good it is spoiled by the absence of patience,love,kindness,compassion,,,,,,plus,there is not one individual here that does not see dimly & in part.....it is from Jesus own Words

 

To add to that...each tree is known by its fruit.

 

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law."  Galatians 5:22,23

 

And we are to speak the truth in love.

 

"Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things."  1 Corinthians 13:4-7

 

People don't come to an understanding of the truth or the things to come from works of the flesh.  Flesh and blood does not reveal God's truth to us.

 

"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come."  John 16:13

 

It is the function of the Holy Spirit to lead us into truth.  If you believe the Holy Spirit has given you something to share, share it in love (see definition above).  You've done your part, let the Holy Spirit do His.  God's word will not return void.

 

Like kwikphilly said...don't let the taint of the flesh spoil the message you're sharing.  If you can't share it in love and then leave it to the Holy Spirit to do His job, perhaps an examination of motive is in order.

[Persuaded]

Rev 20 is satan being bound and put into the abyss. Today, he's free to roam, as the god of this earth (2 Cor 4:4). He doesn't need further loosening!

 

[1Pe 5:8 KJV] Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

 

The restrainer of 2 Thes 2 isn't the church. The restrainer is the Holy Spirit, but in His role as indwelling the church. The church is the vessel through which the Holy Spirit restrains evil in this world. Because of Jesus' promise in John 14, the restrainer can't leave, unless the church is removed as well. We almost define "church" by the Acts 2/pentecost indwelling of the Spirit- the spirit and the church are inseparably linked:

 

 

[Jhn 14:16-18 KJV] And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

[Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

 

Jesus promised Peter that the gates of hell would not prevail over the church. In Revelation, we see "saints" being overcome. Therefore the saints of Revelation are not the church.