Does Purgatory exist or not?

[Guest]

There Are Hands

 

Deliver me, my God, from the hand of the wicked,

 

from the grasp of those who are evil and cruel.

 

For you have been my hope, Sovereign Lord,

 

my confidence since my youth. Psalms 71:4-5 (NIV)

 

And Then Beloved, There Are HANDS

 

My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

 

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish;

 

no one will snatch them out of my hand.

 

 

My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ;

 

no one can snatch them out of

 

my Father’s hand. John 10:27-29 (NIV)

 

Maranatha~!

 

As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. Psalms 42:1 (KJV)

 

~

 

... Purgatory has nothing to do with second chances.

 

It is clearly for only those that are saved.

 

 

Clearly

 

My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin.

 

But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 1 John 2:1 (NIV)

 

Purgatory Is Not

 

Where, then, is boasting?

 

It is excluded.

 

Because of what law?

 

The law that requires works?

 

No, because of the law that requires faith.

 

For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

 

Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,

 

since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith

 

and the uncircumcised through that same faith.

 

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith?

 

Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. Romans 3:27-31 (NIV)

 

For Someone Who

 

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another,

 

and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. 1 John 1:7 (NIV)

 

Is Saved

 

And from Jesus Christ,

 

who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead,

 

and the prince of the kings of the earth.

 

Unto him that loved us,

 

and washed us

 

from our sins

 

in his own blood, Revelation 1:5 (KJV)
 

Merriam-Webster

 

purgatory

 

1 a state after death according to Roman Catholic belief in which the souls of people who die are made pure through suffering before going to heaven

 

2 : a place or state of suffering

 

Origin of PURGATORY

 

Middle English, from Anglo-French or Medieval Latin; Anglo-French purgatorie, from Medieval Latin purgatorium, from Late Latin, neuter of purgatorius purging, from Latin purgare

First Known Use: 13th century

 

purgatory noun (Concise Encyclopedia)

 

In Roman Catholic doctrine, the condition of those who have died in a state of grace but have not been purged of sin. These remaining sins include unforgiven venial sins or forgiven mortal sins. Souls burdened by such sins must be purified before entering heaven. The church also teaches that souls in purgatory may be aided by efforts of the living faithful through prayers, almsgiving, indulgences, and other works. The existence of purgatory has been denied as unbiblical by Protestant churches and most Eastern Orthodox churches. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/purgatory

 

~

 

Believe

 

But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

 

Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! Romans 5:8-9 (NIV)

 

And Be Blessed Beloved

 

For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son,

 

how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

 

Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

through whom we have now received reconciliation. Romans 5:10-11 (NIV)

 

Love, Your Brother Joe

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

I want to make sure there is no misunderstanding with my interchange with Onelight.

I was saying he is wrong when he said that the RCC believes that you have a second chance after death. The RCC does NOT teach that.

As far as the subject of Purgatory that is open for debate. And I may disagree with him on the subject of Purgatory. I am not going to be arrogant and say he's wrong.

[BeauJangles]

Good final thoughts... I'm impressed by your humble heart.

God bless you,

Shalom

David/BeauJangles

Edited October 5, 2014 by BeauJangles

[OneLight]

Couple things I want to touch on.

Fez just cause something is taught from the pulpit and in homes doesn't mean the Church supports or stands by it. Because if I use your way of judging what a religion believes I challenge you to say that baptist hate war vets, homosexuals and all the other nonsense that the Westboro Baptist church aspouses. Because from their pulpit and in their homes the Westboro Baptist are some of the most hatefully people I have seen.

So Fez are Baptist hate full people?? That is what I see every time I see a Westboro baptist video.

I am sure Fez will also reply, but I need to speak up since this is rooted in what I posted. The RCC does not have rouge churches. One cannot just build a church and call it the Roman Catholic Church, as many do with other denominations, so your comparison is really off base here. Those who are ordained priests and preach at the RCC are ordained through the church, and those who are nuns, teaching classes in Catholicism, are also ordained through the church.

 

Onelight to answer you. This has nothing to do with my fathers faith or him being Roman Catholic.

Yet, you do not speak of your church faith. Do you belong to the Roman Catholic Church so you can speak with authority in this matter, or are you just reading along and pulling up information as others provide it?

 

Regardless the topic of a discussion ( happens to be religion because this is a religious forum) I dislike wrong information being attributed to an opposing point of view.

Misrepresenting the others position to bolster yours (not you specifically. The royal you) is bad form. If your argument ( again not you specifically but people in General) can not stand on its own merits than one should reevaluate their position. I find the staunch anti catholic position here interesting. If they are so wrong than why fear what they say.

By what authority would one have to say that I am misrepresenting what I have been taught as a child? Can they see my past? Do they know what I was taught? The "general position" Worthy, and I personally have, is out of personal experience with the RCC.

 

Protestants are so varied and so all over the map that I tread very lightly when speaking about their believe systems. I grew up in a home with a Catholic father and a Luthern mother from a VERY Luthern family. I've heard all the same agreements against the Roman Carholic church and have gone straight to the Roman Carholic Church to see what they have to say on the subject. I do not take my fathers or my mothers word for what the Catholic Church teaches.

I also do the same thing for Protestants. I don't take what Carholics have to say about protestans as being factual either. I have read up on the Luthern faith and Anglican faith. I am dating an evangelical girl right now so I have met with her pastor. I found your forum, and so I ask question and discusses things. Because I don't trust a third party telling me what evangelicala believe. I want them to tell me themselves.

To me that is a fair and dignified position.

Perhaps it would be beneficial for you, since you like to go to the source, to download the Roman Catholicism and study it for yourself, placing it beside scripture while doing so. People can say anything to protect what others find in error of their faith, as do all religions. What you fail to recognize is that I am the only source that can tell you what I was taught. The RCC has no idea of what was taught to me in the local RCC. All they can do is tell you what they believe is taught through their curriculum. That being said, anyone who is indicating that I, or anyone else who sat under their teachings, is falsely accusing the RCC, is, in of itself, not a true analysis of what was taught, only a protective action due to their (RCC) general statements.

[Fez]

I had a long chat to my wife about this thread on the way to church today. She is from the Philippines, a country where government decisions are often not taken without the blessing of the RCC. It is a deeply Catholic country and her father still reads the word every Sunday at mass.

 

She is adamant (she was schooled in a Catholic school by nuns), that they were taught about purgatory and a second chance before judgement. She was also taught that the spirits of the dead watch over us and pray for us. She was also taught that wiping a handkerchief on a statue of Mary made it holy in some way. (it is still done on a regular basis).

 

While I would never start a RCC bashing thread (we don't do that here), I only mention these things to inform you that the church (as OneLight says, they don't do things without instruction), does teach these things. Not rogue churches, the RCC church.

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

So I can't compare the RCC to the Baptist because just anyone can start a Baptist Church. Yet you can not do the same with a RCC Church. I happen to agree with this. The reason is because in order to be a RCC only a properly ordained Bishop can do so. And he can only do so with approval of the Holy See. All this is so that only proper teaching is done.

If a Church is teaching contrary to the teaching of the Church it needs to be reported so that the local Bishop can correct the problem.

Again no one has proven where the RCC teaches that there is a second chance after death. The section OneLight sent me to has 2 paragraph that say VERY clearly that you are judged immediately at the time of death. NO second chances.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Judas Machabeus

[OneLight]

What do you have to do with the RCC?  You have ignored this question more than once.  Do you attend the church?  Are you a member?  Do you have personal experience with their teachings?  What authority do you have to deny what others say that have been part of the RCC?  Why are you ignoring how the RCC see salvation, since this is the basis they hold on Purgatory, a false teaching.

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

You are deflecting. Cause you refuse to admitt that the RCC Church does not teach that you have a second chance after death.

So show me the Church teaching that. Not some nun from 40+ yrs ago or some perish in the Philippines.

As far as salvation I had that conversation in the baptism thread. I would have to read up and see what the RCC says on the subject.

[OneLight]

This is getting really old.  You have been asked directly about your involvement with the RCC and how your experience can usher the authority of you saying what we have been taught is not true.  The only one redirecting here is you.

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

This is getting really old. You have been asked directly about your involvement with the RCC and how your experience can usher the authority of you saying what we have been taught is not true. The only one redirecting here is you.

Again untrue. You sent me to the Catechism and I went to the Vatican website and it says you are wrong. Since the Vatican is the head of the RCC I would say they have authority. AND I went and used your source and YOUR source says that there is no second chance. And yet you refuse to admit you were wrong.

Answer mine first, I asked you first. And I'll answer yours. Where does the RCC teach you get a second chance after death. You made the claim, all I'm asking is for you to back it up.