Sola Scriptura

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh

Except you misunderstand what Jesus is talking about. Jesus is not giving them the power to absolve sins the way God can. You are completely misreading that. It is talking the life of the community and the power to judiciate between parties, much the way we do in a court of law. They had the authority to do three things: Judiciate, legislate and teach. The same as the Rabbi of any Jewish community.

Wow. I am the one misreading. Where in the passage does it say anything close to what you just described.

I'm done for the day, last word to you

I am just more familiar with first century culture than you are.   I understand what Jesus is doing and what he is talking about.  Jesus was not a protestant.  He was a Rabbi with disciples like other Rabbis.   Jesus was not speaking to Catholics or protestants.  Everything Jesus said needs to be understood they way it was understood back then.

 

To argue that God would give men the power to absolve sin is a false teaching and something Jesus would never have done.  Nowhere in the Bible are men given the power or authority to actually absolve sin.  You won't find it in any of the epistles.

 

The "sins" being spoken of don't refer to adultery, or stealing or prostitution.   It refers to personal offenses and complaints between parties.  It is referring to the right to "forgive" in that legal context, not in a spiritual or divine context.

[OneLight]

Onelight you said:

Nevertheless, since the body (church) is taught by the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit teaches us scripture, how can scripture and the church be equal?

The Church is Christ's body so how can the Word be greater than the Body when both are from God. I believe that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one God in three person. All equal and divine and one God. So how can the Word be more than the Church. How can one person of God be more than any of the others?

 

This is a grave error on your part, Brother.  The church is not equal to God or His word.  We follow both in humility, knowing that we can never fulfill the requirements set forth in scripture if it were not for Him and the Holy Spirit.  We are from God, but not equal nor are we equal to scripture.

[GoldenEagle]

Again in Matthew 18:18-20 we see Jesus talking about binding and here he also mentions gathering together which is what the councils did during the early Church.

18Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. *

19Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.

20For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

There is a difference between church and Church. When I talk about the Church having equal authority I am not talking about the bricks and mortor. I'm talking about the leaders of the Church Christ started. Jesus left his authority with Peter and the apostles and they used that authority at the Jerusalem council in Acts 15

And when the canon needed to be defined and closed, there was disagreements amongst the Churches as to what books were inspired and which were not. So the bishops came together and did exactly what Jesus describes in Matthew 18:18-20.

Same thing with the doctrine on theTrinity. There was a heresy and again the bishops came together and exercised the authority given to them by Jesus.

The passage you are referring to here Judas in Matt 18 in context is about church discipline in dealing with a sinning brother. See verses 15-17. Do you see Judas?

God bless,

GE

 

Matt. 18:15-20 (NKJV)

Dealing with a Sinning Brother

¹⁵ “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. ¹⁶ But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ ¹⁷ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

¹⁸ “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

¹⁹ “Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. ²⁰ For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

[GoldenEagle]

It's not a Roman thing or Orthodox or Anglican thing or what ever other denominations have Bishops.

Jesus left his authority with the Apostles. He left keys with Peter making him the head of the Church Christ is to build. This not a denomination thing it's a scripture thing.

Also throughout the early Church heresy after heresy rose up and the Church came together formed councils and guided by the Holy Spirit created doctrine in response to the various heresy.

This was how the doctrine of the trinity came about because of various heresies and the Church had to define doctrine.

There was no Roman Church until 1044. Most doctrine was defined long before than.

As far as your comment about it coming back to Peter well you will have to take that up with scripture. (This last paragraph is said tongue in cheek).

What you are talking about in red is Roman Catholic church tradition and interpretation of Scripture (with weak support in one passage in the Bible Matt. 16:18). Peter being the head of the church and apostolic authority are clearly RCC doctrines. See http://www.gotquestions.org/Peter-first-pope.html

Further words in Mat 16:18 are not the same. One in reference to Peter was like a small stone while the one Jesus was talking about was The Cornerstone - The Christ. Further context is important...

Matt. 16:15-20

¹⁵ He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”

¹⁶ Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

¹⁷ Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. ¹⁸ And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. ¹⁹ And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosedin heaven.”

²⁰ Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ.

Also see See: http://biblehub.com/commentaries/matthew/16-18.htm

What do you make this passage in context?

God bless,

GE

[GoldenEagle]

Also the doctrine of the Trinity, unlike Peter being the head of the Church, can be found throughout Scripture. See http://www.gotquestions.org/Trinity-Bible.html

God bless,

GE

[gdemoss]

Thank you for the thread and all who have participated in it for you hace provoked me to thought about authority and what it means as it pertains to the written word of God.

And God said...

God never wrote anything down but he instructed others to do so.

The word author is directly related to the word authority. There is one who has all power and that one is God. God gives power to whom he will simply by speaking. God is a masterful planner and executer of his own will through knowing himself and all possibilities.

In the bible we find wise men who said to give the disciples some space for if what they were doing were of men it would die out but if it were of God then it could not be stopped.

If God has said it then it does not matter if it was written down or not as it cannot be changed for he is God and will bring it to pass. Just because something is written down does not make it the Word of God but that which God has said ought to be able to be tested without fail.

I have been and continue to be edified by your conversations. Thank you and God bless.

[gdemoss]

Oh and I stand corrected...God has reminded me that he wrote something down twice. Once on stone tablets and the other on a kings wall. Cheers.

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

Again in Matthew 18:18-20 we see Jesus talking about binding and here he also mentions gathering together which is what the councils did during the early Church.

18Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. *

19Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.

20For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

There is a difference between church and Church. When I talk about the Church having equal authority I am not talking about the bricks and mortor. I'm talking about the leaders of the Church Christ started. Jesus left his authority with Peter and the apostles and they used that authority at the Jerusalem council in Acts 15

And when the canon needed to be defined and closed, there was disagreements amongst the Churches as to what books were inspired and which were not. So the bishops came together and did exactly what Jesus describes in Matthew 18:18-20.

Same thing with the doctrine on theTrinity. There was a heresy and again the bishops came together and exercised the authority given to them by Jesus.

The passage you are referring to here Judas in Matt 18 in context is about church discipline in dealing with a sinning brother. See verses 15-17. Do you see Judas?

God bless,

GE

Matt. 18:15-20 (NKJV)

Dealing with a Sinning Brother

¹⁵ “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. ¹⁶ But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ ¹⁷ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

¹⁸ “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

¹⁹ “Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. ²⁰ For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

Exactly!! That passage shows that the Church has authority. If there is a dispute and what ever the Church' decides is final. It binding on earth as well in heaven.

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

Also the doctrine of the Trinity, unlike Peter being the head of the Church, can be found throughout Scripture. See http://www.gotquestions.org/Trinity-Bible.html

God bless,

GE

Wait a minute. My stance is on the side of Church authority. Somehow this has been turned into a Peter debate.

My point on the Peter subject was merely to point out that Christ created a Church and left people in charge of it. Peter and the apostles carried the authority. Peter was simply set apart from the others. I'm happy to have that discussion but perhaps on another thread.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

Also the doctrine of the Trinity, unlike Peter being the head of the Church, can be found throughout Scripture. See http://www.gotquestions.org/Trinity-Bible.html

God bless,

GE

Wait a minute. My stance is on the side of Church authority. Somehow this has been turned into a Peter debate.

My point on the Peter subject was merely to point out that Christ created a Church and left people in charge of it. Peter and the apostles carried the authority. Peter was simply set apart from the others. I'm happy to have that discussion but perhaps on another thread.

 

  Yes, Jesus left people in charge of it and he did give them authority.  That is not what is in dispute.  What is in dispute is that you claim that Jesus gave Peter HIS authority and thus by extension that same authority belongs to the Church.   Thus you view this "authority" as being at least equal to the authority of the Scriptures.

 

It is that view that you can't seem to find any real support for in the Bible, despite your attempts to make it biblical.   The Church derives its authority from the Scriptures.  It does not derive its authority from Jesus and never did.    We operate in His authority.  His authority doesn't belong to us and it would be heretical to say it did, because it would be attributing divine authority to human beings.