Sola Scriptura

[gdemoss]

If Jesus gave Peter HIS authority then why wasn't Paul addressed by God for rebuking Peter as Peter was when he rebuked the Lord?

[Guest Judas Machabeus]

I have lots of support. And shared that support. You reject it it cause it doesn't fit your theology.

[Guest shiloh357]

I have lots of support. And shared that support. You reject it it cause it doesn't fit your theology.

You have shared a few verses of Scripture that you took out of context and misapplied to an issue they weren't meant to address. That doesn't qualify as "lots of support."

[GoldenEagle]

 

The passage you are referring to here Judas in Matt 18 in context is about church discipline in dealing with a sinning brother. See verses 15-17. Do you see Judas?

God bless,

GE

Matt. 18:15-20 (NKJV)

Dealing with a Sinning Brother

¹⁵ “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. ¹⁶ But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ ¹⁷ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

¹⁸ “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

¹⁹ “Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. ²⁰ For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

Exactly!! That passage shows that the Church has authority. If there is a dispute and what ever the Church' decides is final. It binding on earth as well in heaven.

 

The passage has to do with local church (small C) authority. Not a gathering of bishops or Church policies. I agree with Shiloh you're trying to make the passage mean something it doesn't brother.

God bless,

GE

[GoldenEagle]

 

Also the doctrine of the Trinity, unlike Peter being the head of the Church, can be found throughout Scripture. See http://www.gotquestions.org/Trinity-Bible.html

God bless,

GE

Wait a minute. My stance is on the side of Church authority. Somehow this has been turned into a Peter debate.

My point on the Peter subject was merely to point out that Christ created a Church and left people in charge of it. Peter and the apostles carried the authority. Peter was simply set apart from the others. I'm happy to have that discussion but perhaps on another thread.

 

 

Not so fast brother. I've gone back and re-read this thread. You have been making an argument against Sola Scrirptura and Peter is key to your counter argument for Church Authority being equal to Scirpture. You have been insisting that the Church authority, otherwise known as tradition, is needed to understand or even interpret Scripture. All these ideas are taught by the Roman Catholic Church.

Shall we review the thread? This is what you've brought up...

1) the need for Teachers (the Church Authorities) to interpret Scripture (),

2) the Holy Spirit is in the Church (),

3) Peter as the head of the Church ( ),

4) the Bible and Church tradition/interpretation are needed (),

5) Jesus Created a Church and gave that Church authority (http://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/184122-sola-scriptura/?p=2147673, http://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/184122-sola-scriptura/?p=2147680, http://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/184122-sola-scriptura/?p=2147977),

6) Church Bishops gather to determine canon per Matthew 18:18-20 (http://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/184122-sola-scriptura/?p=2147709, http://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/184122-sola-scriptura/?p=2148199),

7) Apostolic Authority & Apostles forgiving sins ( http://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/184122-sola-scriptura/?p=2148026).

Re: 1) the need for Teachers (Church Authorities) to interpret Scripture

Several people pointed to the error in this thinking. Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and man. Have you heard of the doctrine of "the priesthood of the Believer"? This article explains it well: http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-mediator.html

Re: 2) the Holy Spirit is in the Church

The Holy Spirit lives in people, not an institution or building. You agreed to this in http://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/184122-sola-scriptura/?p=2147709.

Re: 3) Peter as the head of the Church

Interesting that you would want to start a new thread on this subject when 7 of the 30 or so posts you've made have directly related to this subject. It is true Peter was an apostle. One of Jesus's three in the inner circle among the disciples. Yet Peter was not necessarily the head of the Church after Jesus's ascension. As evidenced by James decree in Acts 15 and Paul's confrontation of Peter in Galatians 2:11-21.

We don't have an issue with Scripture we have an issue with how you (and the RCC) interpret Scripture in Isaiah 22:20-22 and Matthew 16:15-20. Shiloh address the Isaiah passage which clearly indicates it is speaking of Messiah (Jesus )not Peter. I addressed Matthew 16 in http://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/184122-sola-scriptura/?p=2148159 which you haven't responded to and have conveniently ignored. Curiously enough after arguing that Peter is the head of the Church in 7 posts you now want to start a new discussion on the matter instead of taking the time to tale an honest look at the article, passages presented, and dealing with the Matthew 16:18-20 in context of the preceding passages.

(cont. in next post due to length)

God bless,

GE

[GoldenEagle]

(so the post isn't so long... continued)

Re: 4) the Bible and Church tradition/interpretation are needed
Nowhere is this found in Scripture.

Re: 5) Jesus Created a Church and gave that Church authority
Shiloh pointed out and you agreed in that the Church didn't start till Pentecost. So no, Jesus didn't start the Church. The Church began at Pentecost when Jesus had already ascended and as He sent the Holy Spirit. 

Re: 6) Church Bishops gather to determine canon per Matthew 18:18-20
This passage has to do with the local church... Already discussed.

Re: 7) Apostolic Authority & Apostles forgiving sins
You brought up John 20:19-23. There is nothing in Scripture other than this one passage taken out of context that gives disciples the right to forgive sins and this is passed onto priests/bishops. The Words in John 20:23 "have been forgiven" is the single Greek word aphiami. The disciples were not doing the forgiving but pronouncing the sins that "have been" forgiven by God. The disciples then would've been simply agreeing that the sins had been previously forgiven by God. Further, in Mark 2:5-12 we are told in Scripture that only God has the power to forgive sins. If the scribes and pharisees were wrong in their assessment that only God could forgive sins wouldn't Jesus have corrected them?

I think Shiloh put it quite well here:

 

Except you misunderstand what Jesus is talking about.  Jesus is not giving them the power to absolve sins the way God can.  You are completely misreading that.   It is talking the life of the community and the power to judiciate between parties, much the way we do in a court of law.  They had the authority to do three things: Judiciate, legislate and teach.  The same as the Rabbi of any Jewish community.

All these ideas Judas point to RCC doctrine. To me, this thread should've been called "Sola Scriptura and Church Authority" or something of that nature to better reflect your intent in discussing the subject at hand.

God bless,

GE

[enoob57]

There is an abundance of refutation on Apostolic authority handed down and oral traditions:
Scripture never taught oral tradition on line with Scripture except during the formation of N.T.
Because they were both orally and writing down what Jesus promised he would do through them
2 THESSALONIANS 2:15 We find the doctrine of "sola Scriptura" ("the Bible alone") by affirming
the need for oral traditions at that time as New Testament was being written at that time by
the living apostles...

The phrase "It is written" (80 times KJV)(Matt 4:4,7,10)stressing the authority of the written Word
of God. When Jesus rebuked the Jewish leaders it was not because they did not follow the Scripture,
their traditions was denying Scripture (Mk 7:9-13) but the need to "understand the Scriptures" ( Matt 22:29).
Fulfillment to apostles as they were told by Jesus that the Holy Spirit would guide them to all truth (John 16:13).
The next chapter, "Your word is truth" (John 17:17) as the apostles claimed that their writings to the churches

were Scripture inspired of God (2 Peter 3:15-16; cf. 2 Tim 3:16-17). God intended from the very beginning that

His revelation through those apostles be preserved in Scripture but at that time they were also orally hearing them.

Love, Steven

Edited September 13, 2014 by enoob57