The Seven Seals

[Salty]

 

 

Salty, you ignore the obvious to push a false theory that takes a lot of rearranging to attempt to make it seem truth. It was JOHN that numbered the seals, not the translators. Now you have to explain to us WHY John would use numbers that were not in the right order. If you say he gave the same order as seen in the vision, then you are really saying that GOD did not know the right order, or He mixed up the order just to confuse us. Does that seem like a "revealing?"

 

What exactly are the seals?

 

 

What gibberish is all that? Who said anything about who numbered the seals??? Christ gave His Revelation to John by vision, the written order is simply how Jesus gave John to see the events. Doesn't mean those given events happen in the exact chronological order that John was given to see them. You have to pay attention to the TYPE of event. You're only kicking against the pricks (prickly cactus) with your determination... to NOT understand that point.

 

WHO numbered the seals, as in FIRST, SECOND, THIRD, ect? You do realize, John could have written without these numbers for sequence. He could have said, "when He opened the next seal...." or "when He opened another seal...."  However, writing by divine inspiration He used numbers. People use numbers for sequence. Some people seem to think they can IGNORE sequence, our just rearrange John's sequence. If you wish to be wrong, that is up to you. It makes perfect sense in the order it is written. You do understand, in your theory, the 7th seal will be broken before the 6th? The scroll cannot be unrolled to reveal the trumpet judgments or anything else for that matter, until all seven seals are broken to allow the scroll to be unrolled. Since John saw all this in vision form, with the seals opened and the scroll unrolled to reveal what was written inside, some think they can pull a seal from the God given sequence, pull a trumpet from the God given sequence, and move them to the end of the week. As I said, some people insist on being wrong.

 

Worse yet, because others are not willing to believe such nonsense, then insults much be used. I understand, it is VERY difficult to attempt to disprove truth. However, some people will never give up trying.

 

LAMAD

 

 

The numbering of the rest of the Seals in Rev.6 are in order as to their events, but not the first given event, like the assumed 1st Seal. Do you see anywhere in that Rev.6 where the 1st Seal is actually numbered? No, you don't. Why?

 

 

Rev.6

1  And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

 

It's because that event of the 1st 'assumed' Seal does not happen first! I'll tell you where it happens, in between the 5th and 6th Seals, because it's about the timing when Satan comes as the Antichrist, copying Jesus' coming on a white horse.

 

As for the trumpets, they happen in the order they are given also, same with the vials. So I am NOT leaving the sequence, I'm NOTING the sequence.

 

The difference is... the events of the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials PARALLEL each other. They do not happen like you've been taught, like all the 7 seals must happen first, and then next all trumpets must happen, and then next all vials must happen, which is how you've been taught to interpret their order, just because... that is the order they were shown John.

 

So when I say the events on the 6th Seal are the same events of the 7th Trumpet and 7th Vial, I am NOT leaving the sequence of the seals, trumpets, and vials. As a matter of fact, I strongly... teach that the last 3 Trumpets are the most important ones to understand that will help understand the parallel timing of all the other... seals, trumpets, and vials!

[iamlamad]

 

 

 

Salty, you ignore the obvious to push a false theory that takes a lot of rearranging to attempt to make it seem truth. It was JOHN that numbered the seals, not the translators. Now you have to explain to us WHY John would use numbers that were not in the right order. If you say he gave the same order as seen in the vision, then you are really saying that GOD did not know the right order, or He mixed up the order just to confuse us. Does that seem like a "revealing?"

 

What exactly are the seals?

 

 

What gibberish is all that? Who said anything about who numbered the seals??? Christ gave His Revelation to John by vision, the written order is simply how Jesus gave John to see the events. Doesn't mean those given events happen in the exact chronological order that John was given to see them. You have to pay attention to the TYPE of event. You're only kicking against the pricks (prickly cactus) with your determination... to NOT understand that point.

 

WHO numbered the seals, as in FIRST, SECOND, THIRD, ect? You do realize, John could have written without these numbers for sequence. He could have said, "when He opened the next seal...." or "when He opened another seal...."  However, writing by divine inspiration He used numbers. People use numbers for sequence. Some people seem to think they can IGNORE sequence, our just rearrange John's sequence. If you wish to be wrong, that is up to you. It makes perfect sense in the order it is written. You do understand, in your theory, the 7th seal will be broken before the 6th? The scroll cannot be unrolled to reveal the trumpet judgments or anything else for that matter, until all seven seals are broken to allow the scroll to be unrolled. Since John saw all this in vision form, with the seals opened and the scroll unrolled to reveal what was written inside, some think they can pull a seal from the God given sequence, pull a trumpet from the God given sequence, and move them to the end of the week. As I said, some people insist on being wrong.

 

Worse yet, because others are not willing to believe such nonsense, then insults much be used. I understand, it is VERY difficult to attempt to disprove truth. However, some people will never give up trying.

 

LAMAD

 

 

The numbering of the rest of the Seals in Rev.6 are in order as to their events, but not the first given event, like the assumed 1st Seal. Do you see anywhere in that Rev.6 where the 1st Seal is actually numbered? No, you don't. Why?

 

 

Rev.6

1  And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

 

It's because that event of the 1st 'assumed' Seal does not happen first! I'll tell you where it happens, in between the 5th and 6th Seals, because it's about the timing when Satan comes as the Antichrist, copying Jesus' coming on a white horse.

 

As for the trumpets, they happen in the order they are given also, same with the vials. So I am NOT leaving the sequence, I'm NOTING the sequence.

 

The difference is... the events of the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials PARALLEL each other. They do not happen like you've been taught, like all the 7 seals must happen first, and then next all trumpets must happen, and then next all vials must happen, which is how you've been taught to interpret their order, just because... that is the order they were shown John.

 

So when I say the events on the 6th Seal are the same events of the 7th Trumpet and 7th Vial, I am NOT leaving the sequence of the seals, trumpets, and vials. As a matter of fact, I strongly... teach that the last 3 Trumpets are the most important ones to understand that will help understand the parallel timing of all the other... seals, trumpets, and vials!

 

Ah! Good reading there, Salty! At least in most translations you are right. Here is one that puts it differently

 

New International Version

I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, "Come!"

 

Of course by process of elimination we know it was #1, or the first one opened.

 

If you wish to rearrange, have at it. It was the FIRST ONE opened. That should be obvious by John's narrative. of course I understand some that don't understand John's book will attempt to rearrange to fit a theory, rather than form a theory that first the text as written. You think it is not the first one opened because you don't understand the author's intent. The first seal [opened about 32 AD]  is to represent THE CHURCH sent out (about 32 AD) to make disciples of all nations. OF COURSE it was the first seal broken. The next three seals, also broken about 32 AD is to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the Church.

 

This is a GREAT example of eisegesis: forcing a meaning on a scripture not at all derived from the scripture. Please show us in his description even ONE WORD that would hint there is something evil about it. You cannot find even one word, because there are none. Next, John used the color white 17 times in Revelation to represent righteousness. With this record, why would ANYONE think John would use white even once to represent evil? Anyone who makes the first seal to represent the antichrist is showing they have no understanding of chapters 4 & 5 that is the CONTEXT of the first seal. This first rider rides a WHITE horse because the church is the BODY of Christ on earth.

 

Anyone that things the seals, trumpets and vials are parallel events are showing that they have no understanding at all of John's book. Your theory will be proven wrong.

 

LAMAD

[Salty]

Ah! Good reading there, Salty! At least in most translations you are right. Here is one that puts it differently

 

New International Version

I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, "Come!"

 

Of course by process of elimination we know it was #1, or the first one opened.

 

If you wish to rearrange, have at it. It was the FIRST ONE opened. That should be obvious by John's narrative. of course I understand some that don't understand John's book will attempt to rearrange to fit a theory, rather than form a theory that first the text as written. You think it is not the first one opened because you don't understand the author's intent. The first seal [opened about 32 AD]  is to represent THE CHURCH sent out (about 32 AD) to make disciples of all nations. OF COURSE it was the first seal broken. The next three seals, also broken about 32 AD is to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the Church.

 

This is a GREAT example of eisegesis: forcing a meaning on a scripture not at all derived from the scripture. Please show us in his description even ONE WORD that would hint there is something evil about it. You cannot find even one word, because there are none. Next, John used the color white 17 times in Revelation to represent righteousness. With this record, why would ANYONE think John would use white even once to represent evil? Anyone who makes the first seal to represent the antichrist is showing they have no understanding of chapters 4 & 5 that is the CONTEXT of the first seal. This first rider rides a WHITE horse because the church is the BODY of Christ on earth.

 

Anyone that things the seals, trumpets and vials are parallel events are showing that they have no understanding at all of John's book. Your theory will be proven wrong.

 

LAMAD

 

 

You have not offered anything... but only sound like a broken record with your re-arranging idea.

 

There is NO direct statement of a 1st Seal in Rev.6. It has to be assumed.

[iamlamad]

 

Ah! Good reading there, Salty! At least in most translations you are right. Here is one that puts it differently

 

New International Version

I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, "Come!"

 

Of course by process of elimination we know it was #1, or the first one opened.

 

If you wish to rearrange, have at it. It was the FIRST ONE opened. That should be obvious by John's narrative. of course I understand some that don't understand John's book will attempt to rearrange to fit a theory, rather than form a theory that first the text as written. You think it is not the first one opened because you don't understand the author's intent. The first seal [opened about 32 AD]  is to represent THE CHURCH sent out (about 32 AD) to make disciples of all nations. OF COURSE it was the first seal broken. The next three seals, also broken about 32 AD is to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the Church.

 

This is a GREAT example of eisegesis: forcing a meaning on a scripture not at all derived from the scripture. Please show us in his description even ONE WORD that would hint there is something evil about it. You cannot find even one word, because there are none. Next, John used the color white 17 times in Revelation to represent righteousness. With this record, why would ANYONE think John would use white even once to represent evil? Anyone who makes the first seal to represent the antichrist is showing they have no understanding of chapters 4 & 5 that is the CONTEXT of the first seal. This first rider rides a WHITE horse because the church is the BODY of Christ on earth.

 

Anyone that things the seals, trumpets and vials are parallel events are showing that they have no understanding at all of John's book. Your theory will be proven wrong.

 

LAMAD

 

 

You have not offered anything... but only sound like a broken record with your re-arranging idea.

 

There is NO direct statement of a 1st Seal in Rev.6. It has to be assumed.

 

Our dear brother in Christ, Salty, if you choose to be wrong about most of these things, that is your choice. It is obvious to any reader that it was the first seal opened. All the other 6 are accounted for in later verses. So John used numbers for all the rest. You are still missing a HUGE point. What was the purpose of these seals? It is a book [in those days a scroll] sealed with seals. One translation says locked with 7 locks. Another says kept closed. Then an angel asks who is worthy to break these seals so the book [scroll] can be opened. This book has writing on the back that can be read, but writing inside that cannot be read until the seals are broken.

 

What you are trying to do with your theory is open this book before breaking all the seals. Imagine a door with seven locks. How can the door be opened unless all seven locks are unlocked? It is impossible. So it is impossible to open this book or scroll without breaking all seven of the seals. It is understood that the rest of the book is what is written inside the scroll.

 

From Revelation commentary:

"b. Content: Once it is accepted that the seven seals are not a part of the contents of the scroll, but in fact are conditions to its opening, the reader is able to discern two things. First, John does not explicitly indicate what is contained in the scroll. However, with the breaking of the seventh and final seal, the first direct attack against the earth begins in the form of a trumpet judgment. That the trumpets are judgments of God will be detailed later. Second, since Revelation 8-20 contains the judgment of God against wickedness, the scroll must contain the eschatological judgment of God, else the contents of the scroll are never disclosed. This seems highly unlikely given the importance of the scroll indicated in Revelation 5. Ezekiel 2:9-10 speaks of a scroll similar to Revelation 5. Ezekiel’s scroll contained "lamentations, mourning, and woe." All three terms are associated with disaster. All three express deep grief on the part of the afflicted.

c. Form: The exact form of the scroll is debated. However, taken at face value several points are obvious. First, the basic book form during John’s time was the scroll. The fact that all seven seals were visible argues for a scroll. The fact that the contents of the scroll could not be known until it was opened argues for a rolled up scroll. There is no historical evidence of a sealed scroll within a sealed scroll.

3. Sealed up with seven seals = there is historical evidence of scrolls containing seven seals. In both the Jewish and Roman worlds, seven sealed scrolls were very common. Specifically, Roman law mandated that wills be validated by the seals of five or seven witnesses. Jewish magic also employed the motif of seven seals."

 

"The inside of the scroll contains the events that must occur in heaven and on earth before man can be restored to administrate the creation of God. As the scroll is unrolled it sets in motion the events that must take place for this restoration to occur." 

 

Another commentary:

"As this scroll is unrolled, we should keep in mind that after the outer seals are broken nothing written in an inner sealed portion can be seen. Consequently, if someone says we are now going through one of the trumpet judgments or vial judgments before the things written about at the breaking of the prior seven seals is fulfilled, do not believe them. No trumpet judgments have yet happened on the earth and none of them are now underway as of this writing. The seals, trumpets, and vials cannot run concurrently as some authors with their own agenda have speculated. They make this error because they simply do not understand the book of Revelation. They also do not understand that the first six seals must be broken before the wrath of the Lamb is even announced. The trumpet judgments are not actually carried out until after all the seals of the scroll are broken. Consequently, the trumpet judgments start after the opening of the seventh seal."   Koenig commentary

 

Another commentary:

"The meaning of the scroll is best understood by recognizing the truth in each of these ideas:

• A Catalog of Judgments - Judgments of lament and mourning and woe attend the opening of each seal (and the subsequent trumpets and bowls). In this, the scroll is similar to Ezekiel’s book (Eze. Eze. 2:9-10). “When the Lamb breaks the seals, it is not merely a disclosure of the scroll’s contents, but an activation of those contents.”"  "BibleStudyTools commentary.

 

John knew [perhaps from knowledge revealed to him as he watched] the great importance of getting these seals broken so the book could be opened. The book or scroll is what finally will remove Satan as the god of this world. If no one was ever found worthy, then Satan would remain in his usurped place of authority. In other words, it would be simply IMPOSSIBLE to get to the 7th trumpet where Satan looses, before all 7 seals are broken. It would be impossible to get to the first 7 trumpets before all 7 seals are broken.

 

So if you choose to be wrong, that is your choice. Your attempts to open a door with seven locks without unlocking all seven locks, or unrolling this scroll without breaking all seven seals will fail. That is attempting to rearrange John's book. Salty, I have a novel idea for you: why not just believe these things will happen in the same exact order John wrote them? Did you know - they make perfect sense in John's order.

 

LAMAD

[ENOCH2010]

Finally we see the commentary where lamad gets his doctrine

[Montana Marv]

Rev 6

 

I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals.

When the Lamb opened the second seal.

When the Lamb opened the third seal.

When the Lamb opened the fourth seal.

When he opened the fifth seal.

I watched as he opened the sixth seal.

Rev 8:1 - When he opened the seventh seal.

 

Easy as pie.  One through Seven all described in detail.  All in sequence.  All opened by the Lamb.  And in the correct order.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Last Daze]

Next, John used the color white 17 times in Revelation to represent righteousness. With this record, why would ANYONE think John would use white even once to represent evil? Anyone who makes the first seal to represent the antichrist is showing they have no understanding of chapters 4 & 5 that is the CONTEXT of the first seal. This first rider rides a WHITE horse because the church is the BODY of Christ on earth.

 

 

Riding a white horse in Roman culture was an indication of triumph or victory.  The rider of the first seal, a fallen angel, orchestrates the rise of the false prophet (11th horn of Daniel 7)  who is given a season of victory.

 

"I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them." Daniel 7:21

 

"It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him."  Revelation 13:7

 

That's why the fallen angel rides a white horse going forth conquering and to conquer.  Its because he's victorious and he rules...for a season.  Yes, white is representative of righteousness.  That does not make everything white, righteous.  In this context, a white horse rider, its an indication of triumph or victory.

[iamlamad]

 

Next, John used the color white 17 times in Revelation to represent righteousness. With this record, why would ANYONE think John would use white even once to represent evil? Anyone who makes the first seal to represent the antichrist is showing they have no understanding of chapters 4 & 5 that is the CONTEXT of the first seal. This first rider rides a WHITE horse because the church is the BODY of Christ on earth.

 

 

Riding a white horse in Roman culture was an indication of triumph or victory.  The rider of the first seal, a fallen angel, orchestrates the rise of the false prophet (11th horn of Daniel 7)  who is given a season of victory.

 

"I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them." Daniel 7:21

 

"It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him."  Revelation 13:7

 

That's why the fallen angel rides a white horse going forth conquering and to conquer.  Its because he's victorious and he rules...for a season.  Yes, white is representative of righteousness.  That does not make everything white, righteous.  In this context, a white horse rider, its an indication of triumph or victory.

 

This is not even good or sensible theory.  GOD wrote this book, using John's help. Always remember, the devil did not write it. Sure, he would LOVE to paint himself white, but he did not get to write. GOD wrote it. If you wish to see what color God chooses for Satan or the Beast, go to chapter 17. God chose Fiery Red. Once again, think this through: John used the color white 17 times in this book, if I remember right. Every other time was to represent righteousness, as in showing the Bride in white robes. It is not senseable to even think in this one instance God would choose to use white for anything else than righteousness.

 

Next, you MUST consider the CONTEXT of the first seal. This context is the vision of the throne room in chapters 4 & 5. If you understand these two chapters, you KNOW the first seal was broken around 32 AD. Do you really thing something in 32 AD has ANYTHING to do with the Beast of Revelation 13? Such a thought would be preposterous. MAKE NO MISTAKE, the first seal is a rider on a WHITE horse, and that is to represent the church of Jesus Christ sent out to make disciples of all nations. Do you imagine that Satan would just step aside and allow the word of God to go into all nations without a fight? NO WAY. So there has been conquering everywhere the Word of God is preached in new places. OF COURSE over time the church has conquered.

 

LAMAD

[iamlamad]

Finally we see the commentary where lamad gets his doctrine

No, I just had to look and see if any commentaries got it right for these verses. I usually disagree with commentaries. Many of the older ones thought the Beast was the Roman Empire.

 

LAMAD

[Last Daze]

 

 

Next, John used the color white 17 times in Revelation to represent righteousness. With this record, why would ANYONE think John would use white even once to represent evil? Anyone who makes the first seal to represent the antichrist is showing they have no understanding of chapters 4 & 5 that is the CONTEXT of the first seal. This first rider rides a WHITE horse because the church is the BODY of Christ on earth.

 

 

Riding a white horse in Roman culture was an indication of triumph or victory.  The rider of the first seal, a fallen angel, orchestrates the rise of the false prophet (11th horn of Daniel 7)  who is given a season of victory.

 

"I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them." Daniel 7:21

 

"It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him."  Revelation 13:7

 

That's why the fallen angel rides a white horse going forth conquering and to conquer.  Its because he's victorious and he rules...for a season.  Yes, white is representative of righteousness.  That does not make everything white, righteous.  In this context, a white horse rider, its an indication of triumph or victory.

 

This is not even good or sensible theory.  GOD wrote this book, using John's help. Always remember, the devil did not write it. Sure, he would LOVE to paint himself white, but he did not get to write. GOD wrote it. If you wish to see what color God chooses for Satan or the Beast, go to chapter 17. God chose Fiery Red. Once again, think this through: John used the color white 17 times in this book, if I remember right. Every other time was to represent righteousness, as in showing the Bride in white robes. It is not senseable to even think in this one instance God would choose to use white for anything else than righteousness.

 

Next, you MUST consider the CONTEXT of the first seal. This context is the vision of the throne room in chapters 4 & 5. If you understand these two chapters, you KNOW the first seal was broken around 32 AD. Do you really thing something in 32 AD has ANYTHING to do with the Beast of Revelation 13? Such a thought would be preposterous. MAKE NO MISTAKE, the first seal is a rider on a WHITE horse, and that is to represent the church of Jesus Christ sent out to make disciples of all nations. Do you imagine that Satan would just step aside and allow the word of God to go into all nations without a fight? NO WAY. So there has been conquering everywhere the Word of God is preached in new places. OF COURSE over time the church has conquered.

 

LAMAD

 

 

Doubling down on irrelevance doesn't make it any more relevant.  The color of the horse is irrelevant.  The meaning of a white horse rider is what is important.  It signifies victory or triumph.  It doesn't mean the rider is righteous.  It means he is victorious.  That's a distinction I don't think you're making.  It's meant to indicate that the rider was victorious, not necessarily righteous.

 

Wasn't it Christ that conquered?  Wasn't it He who was given all authority in heaven and on earth?  Where does He tell the church to go forth conquering and to conquer?  What will they ultimately conquer?  That doesn't make any sense.  The church is to share the good news of Christ's conquest and disciple those who believe, not conquer, whatever you think that means.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Last Daze