The Seven Seals

[Salty]

 

Well, if a believer on earth for the end is NOT sealed with God's sealing, then are they really one of His saints? No.

 

Hi Salty

 

Thanks for answering. 

The scriptures show that the end time saints will go through persecution, like their brethren before them, and we know what that means.

The false prophets plan is to eradicate all Christians, and their refusal of the mark of the beast will prove that they are the true Christians who are loyal till their end.

Those persecuted get their reward in the resurrection, but it doesn't change what has been foretold.  They have to go through with what is laid out. These were sealed with the holy spirit of promise, and that sealing would of been confirmed at their deaths with all generations that followed Christ.

 

He that endures to the end shall be saved.

 

Ephesians 1:13   In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 2:12   That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Ephesians 3:6   That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

 

The 144,000 are different.  They are sealed during the last days whilst still alive.  This is what I can see.  And the scriptures say that only 144,000 will be sealed, and these are those who follow the Lamb wherever he goes, so in my view, they are unique, and especially chosen.... and spared for a certain amount of time during the wrath by being kept alive and unharmed.  The First-Fruits are always harvested first.  They are the best fruits, and they are normally stored.  I'm not saying they are picked up, because the clues I see suggest they still remain on the earth, at least during the 5th Angel that sounds, after that there are no clues, we are only shown them standing alone with Christ on Mt Zion (The spiritual kingdom)

 

So no, just because the large group are not sealed, does not imply they don't belong to Christ, because they do, it just means they are not part of this small group that God obviously has other plans for.

 

Salty:  I disagree, for the "great multitude" of Rev.7 which represent believing Gentiles in Christ's Church, have to have been 'sealed' too in order to be at Christ's throne later serving Him. This means the 144,000 are not the only ones sealed for the tribulation. Include those of Rev.15 with those of Rev.14, one representing the 144,000 of seedline Israel, and the other representing elect Gentiles, and both together as Christ's Church.

 

Likewise remember what Apostle Paul said, there is no difference between Jew and Gentile in Christ's Church. Thus we cannot separate the believing remnant of Israel (144,000) sealed for the end from the believing Gentiles that are shown at Christ's throne in the future serving Him day and night. We do not have to have direct statements like - this number of Gentiles from Europe were sealed, and this number of Gentiles from Africa were sealed, and so on, in order to know that "great multitude" are sealed for the tribulation also.

 

 

 

That sealing has to do with The Holy Spirit per Apostle Paul. So forget any idea of men that the 144,000 are not representative of Christ's Church, and likewise with that "great multitude", for they both together represent Christ's Church.

 

Yes, the sealing of the promise. I didn't say that the 144,000 are not representative of Christ Church, but the opposite, because they are, as they follow Christ wheresoever he goes, therefore they are true Christian soldiers, loyal and true.

The "great multitude" represents Christ's church also, they are all part of the body, but are not the little flock.

 

Salty:  "little flock"? Both groups are to be 'one' in Christ Jesus even now; it doesn't have to wait until Christ's Millennium reign.

 

 

The only difference in Rev.7 between that 144,000 and the "great multitude" is one is about an elect remnant seed of Israel in Christ, and the other is about the Gentiles in Christ, and the "great multitude" is shown at a later timeline after the tribulation (after Christ's coming and after their gathering).

 

 

I don't agree here.  It doesn't add up because;

Ephesians 2:12   That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Ephesians 3:6   That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

 

If the gentiles are fellowheirs, then they get a share in the inheritance which were allocated to the 12 tribes of Israel. 

I don't see that the 144,000 are Israel only, but specially chosen elected Christians.

 

Salty:  then you are contradicting the Rev.7 Scripture, because the 144,000 are specifically stated as being of the tribes of Israel, not Gentiles.

 

What you are missing is the reason why... that "great multitude" of believing Gentiles are also mentioned in that Rev.7 chapter about God's sealing of His servants prior to the four winds blowing (meaning prior to the Day of The Lord).

 

 

 

Thus the 144,000 is NOT a metaphorical or symbolic number. It is a literal... number of Israelites, the believing remnant of Israel on earth at the time of the tribulation.

 

 

I absolutely agree it's a literal number.  What I don't agree with is that they are Israelites only. 

If an Israelite follows Christ, then he gets the same reward, for all men are equal now when it comes to serving Christ;

 

Galatians 3:28   There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

The Israel remnants are rescued when Christ appears. They are spared yes, but not because they are sealed.  They will go through the whole tribulation and will suffer loss.  Christ will come to save them out of their ordeal.

These scriptures prove that the remnants have gone through a very hard time;

 

Isaiah 65:19   And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

 

Jeremiah 31:9   They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

 

Hosea 5:15   I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.

 

Hosea 6:1   Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.

 

This appears that the remnants who turned to God did not follow the Lamb wheresoever he goes, but turned to God only during their affliction, ...during the wrath.  Can you see the difference here?

The 144,000 followed the lamb wheresoever he goes, meaning they followed him during their lifetime, in their walk. The remnants cry out after it's too late, but we know that God will have mercy and spare some of them, and only those remnants chosen according to the election will be brought into the kingdom, for many that survive will miss out.

 

And this scripture concerns the dead remnants.

Hosea 6:2   After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

 

Salty:  I suggest you go back and study Romans 11 again by Apostle Paul when he was speaking to both Israelites and Gentiles in Christ's Church. One of the things he was covering there specifically was to Gentiles how God has not cast away His chosen people He foreknew, for even then there was a remnant of the seed of Israel according to the election of grace (being in Christ Jesus), and for them to not brag, lest they also be cut off with the unbelievers of Israel in part which God had blinded so The Gospel could also go to them.

 

 

 

But the "great multitude" out of all nations will also... be on earth going through the tribulation. That Rev.7 chapter only shows them in a time after... their having been gathered which means after the tribulation. It does NOT... show them being raptured prior to the tribulation.

 

 

Yes I agree they will not be raptured prior to the tribulation.

 

Thank you for taking the time to discuss this.  It's really late right now, and I will read your other points tomorrow.

God bless.

 

Salty:  but don't you beieve Christ is going to rapture His Church prior to the tribulation? Sorry, but the "tribulation saints" idea from the Pre-trib Rapture theory is a dreamed up doctrine by them. That's why it doesn't fit God's Word and why I am showing you the difference. So I recognize that you will refuse what I'm saying here just so you can keep to what you've been taught.

 

 

[Guest]

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night,

 

who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever

 

receiveth the mark of his name.

 

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

 

And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

 

And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. Revelation 14:11-14