Partial Rapture

[Guest]

I believe that when the mark is introduced, there will be so much chatter about it everywhere, and warning not to take the mark, that people will have a choice through their own research.  I highly doubt people will not know what it means.  TO take the mark, one will know what they are doing and the Holy Spirit will be telling everyone not to.  The question is, how many people will people listen?

 

 

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

 

Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

 

 

And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

 

 

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice,

 

If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

 

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

 

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Revelation 14:6-11

 

[finestofthewheat]

Regarding the "hour of trial" of Rev 3:10 this could be referring to the actual day of the second coming and does not necessarily refer to the entire tribulation.

Regarding the things to be escaped it doesn't make sense that Jesus would be telling saints how to be faithful and watch for signs during the tribulation and then also how to escape the tribulation. In context the things to be escaped are "surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life". These distractions are what me must avoid/escape. If we are worthy, we shall escape these distractions.

ARGOSY,

If "thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev. 3.10).

 

The "hour of trial" does refer to Jesus' second coming which commences first with the first rapture "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) in 3rd heaven to stand before the Son of the Man that is according to readiness before the 1st of 7 trumpets is blown (8.7). Then Jesus through the 7 years (His parousia) comes on the cloud, through the cloud, to meet the saints in the air at the last trumpet (1 Thess. 4.14-18; 1 Cor. 15.50-52). 24 moths after the 7th trumpet is blown, Jesus steps down on the mount of olives in His second coming (Zech. 14.4, Acts 1.11, Rev. 1.7). For 30 days more after than He judges the nations from the 1260th to the 1290th day. Then for 45 days more after that to the 1335 day He sets up Israel as the center of all nations from where He will reign in the 3rd Temple 1000 years.

 

It would not make much sense for the hour of trial to refer to solely Jesus on earth and not the rest of His parousia because Rev. 3.10 clearly says if the Christian acts in such a way, he will be kept from the hour of trial. To be kept from Jesus makes no sense in this interpretation of yours. So the hour of trial must entail all that is part of Daniel's final seven. What a wonderful blessing to be kept from the hour of trial if we meet the condition set forth in Scripture, thus ready to be received at that time. It makes perfect sense for Jesus to tell Christians to be watchful before the Tribulation, to be prayerful, keep the conduct of Matt. 5-7, and to keep the word of His patience before the Tribulation begins in order to be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass in the final 7.

Luke 21.36 proves that not the entire church but only a part of it will be raptured before the Tribulation. Verse 34 has a change in tone from the preceding verses, verse 35 shows that the things mentioned earlier concern the whole inhabited world, and verse 36 presents the condition for escaping the Great Tribulation - which is to watch and pray. How are believers to escape all these coming things and to stand before the Son of man? Naturally by being raptured. Death is not a blessing: we do not pray and expect death. The condition here for rapture is to watch and pray. Hence here, not all the regenerated may be raptured. Pray always. What to pray for? Pray that we may escape all these things which shall come to pass. “That ye may prevail” (or, “ye may be accounted worthy” AV), It is not a question of grace, but rather a matter of worthiness. How about worthiness? God cannot receive you to the place where you have no desire to go. Some people may consider heaven as too tasteless a place in which to live as may be indicated by these words: “Lest haply your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life” (v.34). If a balloon is tied, it cannot ascend. In sum, Luke 21.36 shatters the arguments of rapture of the whole church before the Tribulation or after the Tribulation. Some may still raise other arguments, such as (1) that rapture is not dependent on conduct - yet in reply it should be asked whether anyone thinks a carnal believer lying on a bed of fornication will be raptured? Or (2) that the phrase “all these things” does not refer to the Great Tribulation but to the surfeiting, drunkenness, and cares of this life cited in verse 34. In reply, it should be noted that verse 36 reads, “all these things that shall come to pass" - whereas “surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life” pertain to the things which are present now. And therefore, “watch ye” means to not be deceived by such activities.

"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man" (Luke 21.36).

Edited October 22, 2014 by finestofthewheat

[Enoch2021]

 

Regarding the "hour of trial" of Rev 3:10 this could be referring to the actual day of the second coming and does not necessarily refer to the entire tribulation.

Regarding the things to be escaped it doesn't make sense that Jesus would be telling saints how to be faithful and watch for signs during the tribulation and then also how to escape the tribulation. In context the things to be escaped are "surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life". These distractions are what me must avoid/escape. If we are worthy, we shall escape these distractions.

ARGOSY,

If "thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev. 3.10).

 

The "hour of trial" does refer to Jesus' second coming which commences first with the first rapture "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) in 3rd heaven to stand before the Son of the Man that is according to readiness before the 1st of 7 trumpets is blown (8.7). Then Jesus through the 7 years (His parousia) comes on the cloud, through the cloud, to meet the saints in the air at the last trumpet (1 Thess. 4.14-18; 1 Cor. 15.50-52). 24 moths after the 7th trumpet is blown, Jesus steps down on the mount of olives in His second coming (Zech. 14.4, Acts 1.11, Rev. 1.7). For 30 days more after than He judges the nations from the 1260th to the 1290th day. Then for 45 days more after that to the 1335 day He sets up Israel as the center of all nations from where He will reign in the 3rd Temple 1000 years.

 

It would not make much sense for the hour of trial to refer to solely Jesus on earth and not the rest of His parousia because Rev. 3.10 clearly says if the Christian acts in such a way, he will be kept from the hour of trial. To be kept from Jesus makes no sense in this interpretation of yours. So the hour of trial must entail all that is part of Daniel's final seven. What a wonderful blessing to be kept from the hour of trial if we meet the condition set forth in Scripture, thus ready to be received at that time. It makes perfect sense for Jesus to tell Christians to be watchful before the Tribulation, to be prayerful, keep the conduct of Matt. 5-7, and to keep the word of His patience before the Tribulation begins in order to be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass in the final 7.

Luke 21.36 proves that not the entire church but only a part of it will be raptured before the Tribulation. Verse 34 has a change in tone from the preceding verses, verse 35 shows that the things mentioned earlier concern the whole inhabited world, and verse 36 presents the condition for escaping the Great Tribulation - which is to watch and pray. How are believers to escape all these coming things and to stand before the Son of man? Naturally by being raptured. Death is not a blessing: we do not pray and expect death. The condition here for rapture is to watch and pray. Hence here, not all the regenerated may be raptured. Pray always. What to pray for? Pray that we may escape all these things which shall come to pass. “That ye may prevail” (or, “ye may be accounted worthy” AV), It is not a question of grace, but rather a matter of worthiness. How about worthiness? God cannot receive you to the place where you have no desire to go. Some people may consider heaven as too tasteless a place in which to live as may be indicated by these words: “Lest haply your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life” (v.34). If a balloon is tied, it cannot ascend. In sum, Luke 21.36 shatters the arguments of rapture of the whole church before the Tribulation or after the Tribulation. Some may still raise other arguments, such as (1) that rapture is not dependent on conduct - yet in reply it should be asked whether anyone thinks a carnal believer lying on a bed of fornication will be raptured? Or (2) that the phrase “all these things” does not refer to the Great Tribulation but to the surfeiting, drunkenness, and cares of this life cited in verse 34. In reply, it should be noted that verse 36 reads, “all these things that shall come to pass" - whereas “surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life” pertain to the things which are present now. And therefore, “watch ye” means to not be deceived by such activities.

"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man" (Luke 21.36).

 

 

 

=========================================================================================================================

 

 

Luke 21.36 proves that not the entire church but only a part of it will be raptured before the Tribulation.

 

 

Where does it say, let alone even imply, a Partial Rapture??....

 

(Luke 21:36) " Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

 

 

(Luke 21:34-35) "And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.  {35}  For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth."

 

In verse 34 and 35 he's juxtaposing Earth Dwellers/Unbelievers and "Yourselves" (Christians) in much the same way Paul does here...

 

(1 Thessalonians 5:1-4) "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.  {2} For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.  {3} For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.  {4} But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."

 

They that say "Peace and Safety" = (Unbelievers/Earth Dwellers) Juxtaposed with "But ye, brethern" (Christians).

 

 

Moreover....In Luke, Christ didn't reveal "The Mystery of The Church".  It wasn't made known until it was Paul's Honor to reveal it.....

 

(Ephesians 3:1-8) "For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,  {2} If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:  {3} How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,  {4} Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)  {5} Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;  {6} That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:  {7} Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.  {8} Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;"

 

 

Furthermore and above all, please show where it says anything other than ALL....

 

(1 Thessalonians 4:16-18) "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  {17} Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  {18} Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

??

 

It doesn't say "some or part of the dead shall rise" or "some or part of we which are alive and remain".  This is speaking to ALL Born Again Christians/"The Church" Dead and Alive. So you're left with not only no Scriptural Support, but clearly portrays the exact opposite of your position.

 

 

 

Luke 21.36 shatters the arguments of rapture of the whole church before the Tribulation or after the Tribulation.

 

 

As ountlined above, it does no such thing.

[Daniel 11:36]

My comment

There will be no "partial rapture"

One will either be ready [saved] .... or not ready [Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:10; 3:15-19]

 

The majority of the professing church today are not saved

Those with oil will be ready .... those without will be left [those who profess only]

There will be individuals saved during the tribulation period the same as Christians are saved today

... no different

 

However, those who become believers during the tribulation are going to be hunted by the beast and his followers and there will be much vexation, confusion, and deception .... most will be martyred and these will have to wait until the end of the tribulation period for their resurrection to immortality [Revelation 6:9-11; 15:2-3; 20:4 [those beheaded]]

Edited October 27, 2014 by Daniel 11:36

[finestofthewheat]

 

 

Regarding the "hour of trial" of Rev 3:10 this could be referring to the actual day of the second coming and does not necessarily refer to the entire tribulation.

Regarding the things to be escaped it doesn't make sense that Jesus would be telling saints how to be faithful and watch for signs during the tribulation and then also how to escape the tribulation. In context the things to be escaped are "surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life". These distractions are what me must avoid/escape. If we are worthy, we shall escape these distractions.

ARGOSY,

If "thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev. 3.10).

 

The "hour of trial" does refer to Jesus' second coming which commences first with the first rapture "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) in 3rd heaven to stand before the Son of the Man that is according to readiness before the 1st of 7 trumpets is blown (8.7). Then Jesus through the 7 years (His parousia) comes on the cloud, through the cloud, to meet the saints in the air at the last trumpet (1 Thess. 4.14-18; 1 Cor. 15.50-52). 24 moths after the 7th trumpet is blown, Jesus steps down on the mount of olives in His second coming (Zech. 14.4, Acts 1.11, Rev. 1.7). For 30 days more after than He judges the nations from the 1260th to the 1290th day. Then for 45 days more after that to the 1335 day He sets up Israel as the center of all nations from where He will reign in the 3rd Temple 1000 years.

 

It would not make much sense for the hour of trial to refer to solely Jesus on earth and not the rest of His parousia because Rev. 3.10 clearly says if the Christian acts in such a way, he will be kept from the hour of trial. To be kept from Jesus makes no sense in this interpretation of yours. So the hour of trial must entail all that is part of Daniel's final seven. What a wonderful blessing to be kept from the hour of trial if we meet the condition set forth in Scripture, thus ready to be received at that time. It makes perfect sense for Jesus to tell Christians to be watchful before the Tribulation, to be prayerful, keep the conduct of Matt. 5-7, and to keep the word of His patience before the Tribulation begins in order to be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass in the final 7.

Luke 21.36 proves that not the entire church but only a part of it will be raptured before the Tribulation. Verse 34 has a change in tone from the preceding verses, verse 35 shows that the things mentioned earlier concern the whole inhabited world, and verse 36 presents the condition for escaping the Great Tribulation - which is to watch and pray. How are believers to escape all these coming things and to stand before the Son of man? Naturally by being raptured. Death is not a blessing: we do not pray and expect death. The condition here for rapture is to watch and pray. Hence here, not all the regenerated may be raptured. Pray always. What to pray for? Pray that we may escape all these things which shall come to pass. “That ye may prevail” (or, “ye may be accounted worthy” AV), It is not a question of grace, but rather a matter of worthiness. How about worthiness? God cannot receive you to the place where you have no desire to go. Some people may consider heaven as too tasteless a place in which to live as may be indicated by these words: “Lest haply your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life” (v.34). If a balloon is tied, it cannot ascend. In sum, Luke 21.36 shatters the arguments of rapture of the whole church before the Tribulation or after the Tribulation. Some may still raise other arguments, such as (1) that rapture is not dependent on conduct - yet in reply it should be asked whether anyone thinks a carnal believer lying on a bed of fornication will be raptured? Or (2) that the phrase “all these things” does not refer to the Great Tribulation but to the surfeiting, drunkenness, and cares of this life cited in verse 34. In reply, it should be noted that verse 36 reads, “all these things that shall come to pass" - whereas “surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life” pertain to the things which are present now. And therefore, “watch ye” means to not be deceived by such activities.

"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man" (Luke 21.36).

 

 

 

=========================================================================================================================

 

 

Luke 21.36 proves that not the entire church but only a part of it will be raptured before the Tribulation.

 

 

Where does it say, let alone even imply, a Partial Rapture??....

 

(Luke 21:36) " Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

 

 

(Luke 21:34-35) "And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.  {35}  For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth."

 

In verse 34 and 35 he's juxtaposing Earth Dwellers/Unbelievers and "Yourselves" (Christians) in much the same way Paul does here...

 

(1 Thessalonians 5:1-4) "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.  {2} For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.  {3} For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.  {4} But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."

 

They that say "Peace and Safety" = (Unbelievers/Earth Dwellers) Juxtaposed with "But ye, brethern" (Christians).

 

 

Moreover....In Luke, Christ didn't reveal "The Mystery of The Church".  It wasn't made known until it was Paul's Honor to reveal it.....

 

(Ephesians 3:1-8) "For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,  {2} If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:  {3} How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,  {4} Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)  {5} Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;  {6} That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:  {7} Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.  {8} Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;"

 

 

Furthermore and above all, please show where it says anything other than ALL....

 

(1 Thessalonians 4:16-18) "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  {17} Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  {18} Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

??

 

It doesn't say "some or part of the dead shall rise" or "some or part of we which are alive and remain".  This is speaking to ALL Born Again Christians/"The Church" Dead and Alive. So you're left with not only no Scriptural Support, but clearly portrays the exact opposite of your position.

 

 

 

Luke 21.36 shatters the arguments of rapture of the whole church before the Tribulation or after the Tribulation.

 

 

As ountlined above, it does no such thing.

 

 

Read more carefully. You are missing key points in the text that I for one cannot overlook as you do. Let us not be guilty for shutting your mind down to the text.

 

Why ask for was already given? "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

 

If you are not watchful you will not be worthy to escape the Tribulation that is to come upon the whole world to stand before the Son of Man in 3rd heaven.

 

[Luk 21:34-36 KJV] 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and [so] that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

Luke 21.36 proves that not the entire church but only a part of it will be raptured before the Tribulation. The accounts of Luke 21 and Matthew 24 are quite alike, except that Matthew stresses more the coming of Christ and the Tribulation while Luke focuses more on the destruction of Jerusalem and the Tribulation. Hence there is the famous question asked in Matthew (24.3), and there are also more parables recorded in Matthew’s account than in Luke’s. In 70 A.D. Jerusalem experienced a terrible destruction, and at the end she will experience a great tribulation. The record in Luke can be outlined as follows: 2 1.8-9 - the things before the end; 10-19 - believers will suffer; 20-28 - how Jerusalem will be destroyed (verse 28 seems to suggest that the saints will all pass through the Tribulation); 29-33 - a parable guaranteeing the certainty of these things to come; and 34-36 - Were it not for this passage, it might be inferred that the whole body of believers would surely be raptured after the Tribulation: yet verse 34 has a change in tone from the preceding verses, verse 35 shows that the things mentioned earlier concern the whole inhabited world, and verse 36 presents the condition for escaping the Great Tribulation - which is to watch and pray. How are believers to escape all these coming things and to stand before the Son of man? Naturally by being raptured. Death is not a blessing: we do not pray and expect death. The condition here for rapture is to watch and pray. Hence here, not all the regenerated may be raptured. Pray always. What to pray for? Pray that we may escape all these things which shall come to pass. “That ye may prevail” (or, “ye may be accounted worthy” AV), It is not a question of grace, but rather a matter of worthiness. How about worthiness? God cannot receive you to the place where you have no desire to go. Some people may consider heaven as too tasteless a place in which to live as may be indicated by these words: “Lest haply your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life” (v.34). If a balloon is tied, it cannot ascend. In sum, Luke 21.36 shatters the arguments of both the pre and post tribber onlyists. The second school may still raise other arguments, such as (1) that rapture is not dependent on conduct - yet in reply it should be asked whether anyone thinks a carnal believer lying on a bed of fornication will be raptured? Or (2) that the phrase “all these things” does not refer to the Great Tribulation but to the surfeiting, drunkenness, and cares of this life cited in verse 34. In reply, it should be noted that verse 36 reads, “all these things that shall come to pass" - whereas “surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life” pertain to the things which are present now. And therefore, “watch ye” means to not be deceived by such activities. 

 

Some argue as you have done that according to I Thessalonians 4.15, the living “shall in no wise precede them who are fallen asleep” -The dead are resurrected at the seventh trumpet; and so timewise, rapture occurs after the Tribulation. Now if there is a first rapture, it will have to take place before the resurrection of the dead. But since this verse distinctly says “shall in no wise,” how then can rapture take place twice? Let me say in reply that it is most precious and significant to find in both verse 15 and verse 17 the qualifying clauses “we that are alive, that are left” - Now to be alive is obviously to be left on earth; why, then, is there this apparent unnecessary repetition? Because it implies that there are people who though alive yet have already gone ahead (that is, raptured) and therefore are no longer left on earth. Would Paul enlist himself among this class of people who are alive and are left? Not at all. He uses the word “we” only because he is speaking at that moment of writing, and the proof of this is that since Paul no longer lives today, he cannot be numbered among those who are left on earth. Our summary conclusion to all this is that partial rapture is the correct view - that is to say, that one group of believers will be raptured before the Tribulation according to readiness while another group of believers will go through the Tribulation and be raptured afterwards.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

 

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You didn't answer this....

 

Furthermore and above all, please show where it says anything other than ALL....

(1 Thessalonians 4:16-18) "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  {17} Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  {18} Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

??

It doesn't say "some or part of the dead shall rise" or "some or part of we which are alive and remain".  This is speaking to ALL Born Again Christians/"The Church" Dead and Alive. So you're left with not only no Scriptural Support, but clearly portrays the exact opposite of your position.

 

 

The dead are resurrected at the seventh trumpet; and so timewise, rapture occurs after the Tribulation.

 

 

Factually Incorrect.  Show Scripture Support for the "7th" Trumpet with a concurrent Rapture?  Also, please don't Equivocate (Fallacy) the "7th Trumpet" with "the trump of GOD".

 

 

(1 Thessalonians 4:16-18) "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  {17} Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  {18} Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

This is speaking to The Church/Born Again Christians....ALL of them Dead and Alive.

Your position for Post Trib is that The Church/Born Again Christians go through the Great Tribulation. 

Well 98% of The Church/Born Again Christians are DEAD (From Pentecost until it's now or when it's time).  So for the "Church" to go through the "Great Tribulation" on the Earth....They would have to be RESURRECTED and Walking around on the Earth so as to go through The Great Tribulation.

 

Please show this scenario in Scripture....?

 

And it says...."we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds".  Together with who? The DEAD.  (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18) is one event where the DEAD (Born Again Christians/"The Church") are raised first then Immediately the "Alive" (Born Again Christians/"The Church")...are caught up together.

 

 

What you're attempting to contrive (Post Great Trib Rapture) is simply not there.

 

 

Moreover....How does Christ Return with HIS Bride ("The Church"/Born Again Christians) Rev 19, or have the Marriage Supper in Heaven Rev 19, with HIS BRIDE ("The Church"/ Born Again Christians).......if they're still on the Earth awaiting Rapture? 

 

 

Some argue as you have done that according to I Thessalonians 4.15

 

 

I wasn't "arguing" I Thessalonians 4.15, I was arguing 1 Thess 4:16-18.

 

(1 Thessalonians 4:15) "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep."

 

All Verse 15 is saying that the DEAD will Rise First followed by the Alive which is then Reiterated in Verse 17.

[finestofthewheat]

 

 

 

 

 

=======================================================================================================================

 

 

You didn't answer this....

 

Furthermore and above all, please show where it says anything other than ALL....

(1 Thessalonians 4:16-18) "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  {17} Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  {18} Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

??

It doesn't say "some or part of the dead shall rise" or "some or part of we which are alive and remain".  This is speaking to ALL Born Again Christians/"The Church" Dead and Alive. So you're left with not only no Scriptural Support, but clearly portrays the exact opposite of your position.

 

 

The dead are resurrected at the seventh trumpet; and so timewise, rapture occurs after the Tribulation.

 

 

Factually Incorrect.  Show Scripture Support for the "7th" Trumpet with a concurrent Rapture?  Also, please don't Equivocate (Fallacy) the "7th Trumpet" with "the trump of GOD".

 

 

(1 Thessalonians 4:16-18) "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  {17} Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  {18} Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

This is speaking to The Church/Born Again Christians....ALL of them Dead and Alive.

Your position for Post Trib is that The Church/Born Again Christians go through the Great Tribulation. 

Well 98% of The Church/Born Again Christians are DEAD (From Pentecost until it's now or when it's time).  So for the "Church" to go through the "Great Tribulation" on the Earth....They would have to be RESURRECTED and Walking around on the Earth so as to go through The Great Tribulation.

 

Please show this scenario in Scripture....?

 

And it says...."we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds".  Together with who? The DEAD.  (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18) is one event where the DEAD (Born Again Christians/"The Church") are raised first then Immediately the "Alive" (Born Again Christians/"The Church")...are caught up together.

 

 

What you're attempting to contrive (Post Great Trib Rapture) is simply not there.

 

 

Moreover....How does Christ Return with HIS Bride ("The Church"/Born Again Christians) Rev 19, or have the Marriage Supper in Heaven Rev 19, with HIS BRIDE ("The Church"/ Born Again Christians).......if they're still on the Earth awaiting Rapture? 

 

 

Some argue as you have done that according to I Thessalonians 4.15

 

 

I wasn't "arguing" I Thessalonians 4.15, I was arguing 1 Thess 4:16-18.

 

(1 Thessalonians 4:15) "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep."

 

All Verse 15 is saying that the DEAD will Rise First followed by the Alive which is then Reiterated in Verse 17.

 

 

I already said,

 

Some argue as you have done that according to I Thessalonians 4.15, the living “shall in no wise precede them who are fallen asleep” - The dead are resurrected at the seventh trumpet; and so timewise, rapture occurs after the Tribulation. Now if there is a first rapture, it will have to take place before the resurrection of the dead. But since this verse distinctly says “shall in no wise,” how then can rapture take place twice? Let me say in reply that it is most precious and significant to find in both verse 15 and verse 17 the qualifying clauses “we that are alive, that are left” - Now to be alive is obviously to be left on earth; why, then, is there this apparent unnecessary repetition? Because it implies that there are people who though alive yet have already gone ahead (that is, raptured) and therefore are no longer left on earth. Would Paul enlist himself among this class of people who are alive and are left? Not at all. He uses the word “we” only because he is speaking at that moment of writing, and the proof of this is that since Paul no longer lives today, he cannot be numbered among those who are left on earth. Our summary conclusion to all this is that partial rapture is the correct view - that is to say, that one group of believers will be raptured before the Tribulation according to readiness while another group of believers will go through the Tribulation and be raptured afterwards.

 

The 1st trumpet is in Rev. 8.7. Before this is the first rapture that is according to readiness "before the throne" (7.9) in 3rd heaven. 1 Thess. 4.14-18, 1 Cor. 15.50-52 and Rev. 11.15 are at the last trumpet, at the start of the 7th trumpet. So consider this second rapture, and also a resurrection, to be not according to readiness but according to completion of all those saints alive and left along with those saints who have been asleep.

 

The bride that Jesus returns with is not all Christians. Though all Christians are saved and have eternal life and will be the inhabitants of the New City, only a small fraction of Christians (1/7th as only Philadelphia was an overcomer church) will get to enter the marriage feast of reigning over the nations for 1000 years. They are the 5 wise virgins while the 5 unwise lose this reward. In Rev. 19 the bride is treated differently than in the epistles. The bride is the whole church, but for the purposes of reigning over the nations for 1000 years, the bride in the marriage feast is unto rewards - the "man child" overcomers (Rev. 12).

Edited October 27, 2014 by finestofthewheat

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

 

===============================================================================================================

 

 

I already said,

Some argue as you have done that according to I Thessalonians 4.15,

 

 

 

As I said (Again).... I wasn't "arguing" I Thessalonians 4.15, I was arguing 1 Thess 4:16-18.

 

 

The 1st trumpet is in Rev. 8.7. Before this is the first rapture that is according to readiness "before the throne" (7.9) in 3rd heaven.

 

 

Do me a Favor, when you Reference Scripture, instead of "(7:9)" go ahead and put Book Chapter and Verse or better yet CITE the Verse in Question....

 

(Revelation 7:9) "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;"

 

This is speaking to "Tribulation Saints" not "The Church".  John didn't recognize them as he has to ask who they are....

 

(Revelation 7:13-14) "And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?  {14} And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

 

Also, Please show Jesus coming in the Clouds and gathering them before Revelation 7:9.....?

 

 

1 Cor. 15.50-52 and Rev. 11.15 are at the last trumpet,

 

 

No they are not the same.  The "trump of GOD", "the last trump", and the "7th Trumpet" are not the same.

 

(1 Thessalonians 4:16) "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"

 

(1 Corinthians 15:50-52) "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.  {51} Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,  {52} In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

 

Moreover, and this is getting convoluted, please show where the "Rapture" is after this....the Seventh Trumpet:

 

(Revelation 11:15) "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

 

.....??

 

 

The bride that Jesus returns with is not all Christians.

 

 

Factually Incorrect.  Christ's Bride is "The Church"....

 

(2 Corinthians 11:2) "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."

 

(Ephesians 5:31-32) "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.  {32} This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church."

 

Also he does return with "his armies" besides HIS Bride ("The Church"): 

 

(Revelation 19:14-16) "And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.  {15} And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.  {16} And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

 

But that doesn't Preclude the Fact that "The Church" is HIS Bride.

 

 

Though all Christians are saved and have eternal life and will be the inhabitants of the New City, only a small fraction of Christians (1/7th as only Philadelphia was an overcomer church) will get to enter the marriage feast of reigning over the nations for 1000 years.

 

 

I agree....kudos to you, most are not aware of this; However, that doesn't Preclude the Fact that those that are HIS Bride are Born Again Christians/ "The Church".

 

 

 

 

You failed to address these...

 

A. (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18) "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  {17} Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  {18} Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

 

It doesn't say "some or part of the dead shall rise" or "some or part of we which are alive and remain".  This is speaking to ALL Born Again Christians/"The Church" Dead and Alive. So you're left with not only no Scriptural Support, but clearly portrays the exact opposite of your position.

 

 

B. Your position for Post Trib is that The Church/Born Again Christians go through the Great Tribulation.

 

Well 98% of The Church/Born Again Christians are DEAD (From Pentecost until it's now or when it's time).  So for the "Church" to go through the "Great Tribulation" on the Earth....They would have to be RESURRECTED and Walking around on the Earth so as to go through The Great Tribulation.

Please show this scenario in Scripture....?

[finestofthewheat]

 

 

 

 

 

===============================================================================================================

 

 

I already said,

Some argue as you have done that according to I Thessalonians 4.15,

 

 

 

As I said (Again).... I wasn't "arguing" I Thessalonians 4.15, I was arguing 1 Thess 4:16-18.

 

 

The 1st trumpet is in Rev. 8.7. Before this is the first rapture that is according to readiness "before the throne" (7.9) in 3rd heaven.

 

 

Do me a Favor, when you Reference Scripture, instead of "(7:9)" go ahead and put Book Chapter and Verse or better yet CITE the Verse in Question....

 

(Revelation 7:9) "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;"

 

This is speaking to "Tribulation Saints" not "The Church".  John didn't recognize them as he has to ask who they are....

 

(Revelation 7:13-14) "And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?  {14} And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

 

Also, Please show Jesus coming in the Clouds and gathering them before Revelation 7:9.....?

 

 

1 Cor. 15.50-52 and Rev. 11.15 are at the last trumpet,

 

 

No they are not the same.  The "trump of GOD", "the last trump", and the "7th Trumpet" are not the same.

 

(1 Thessalonians 4:16) "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"

 

(1 Corinthians 15:50-52) "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.  {51} Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,  {52} In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

 

Moreover, and this is getting convoluted, please show where the "Rapture" is after this....the Seventh Trumpet:

 

(Revelation 11:15) "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

 

.....??

 

 

The bride that Jesus returns with is not all Christians.

 

 

Factually Incorrect.  Christ's Bride is "The Church"....

 

(2 Corinthians 11:2) "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."

 

(Ephesians 5:31-32) "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.  {32} This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church."

 

Also he does return with "his armies" besides HIS Bride ("The Church"): 

 

(Revelation 19:14-16) "And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.  {15} And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.  {16} And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

 

But that doesn't Preclude the Fact that "The Church" is HIS Bride.

 

 

Though all Christians are saved and have eternal life and will be the inhabitants of the New City, only a small fraction of Christians (1/7th as only Philadelphia was an overcomer church) will get to enter the marriage feast of reigning over the nations for 1000 years.

 

 

I agree....kudos to you, most are not aware of this; However, that doesn't Preclude the Fact that those that are HIS Bride are Born Again Christians/ "The Church".

 

 

 

 

You failed to address these...

 

A. (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18) "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  {17} Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  {18} Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

 

It doesn't say "some or part of the dead shall rise" or "some or part of we which are alive and remain".  This is speaking to ALL Born Again Christians/"The Church" Dead and Alive. So you're left with not only no Scriptural Support, but clearly portrays the exact opposite of your position.

 

 

B. Your position for Post Trib is that The Church/Born Again Christians go through the Great Tribulation.

 

Well 98% of The Church/Born Again Christians are DEAD (From Pentecost until it's now or when it's time).  So for the "Church" to go through the "Great Tribulation" on the Earth....They would have to be RESURRECTED and Walking around on the Earth so as to go through The Great Tribulation.

Please show this scenario in Scripture....?

 

 

I am not a posttribber onlyist. I am a partial rapture believer. I believe the first rapture is according to readiness according to Matt. 24.40-42, Luke 21.36 and Rev. 3.10 "before the throne" in 3rd heaven to stand before the Son of Man (7.9) which is before the 1st trumpet (8.7) is blown of the Tribulation. There are 7 trumpets of the Tribulation. The first four trumpets are Rev. 8. The last 3 trumpets or 3 woes are from Rev. 9 to 11. Then  Rev. 12 to 19 give the details of these major points.

 

1 Thess. 4.15 is similar to v. 16 and v. 17.

 

Rev. 7 is not referring to Tribulation saints. It's referring to the tribulation of the past 20 centuries. Those first raptured are sen in Rev. 7 and would include all overcomers. Rev. 12 is very similar to Rev. 7 as they are the man child overcomers.

 

The last trumpet and "the trump" of God are the same trumps. At the 7th trumpet in the twinkling of an eye. The 1st trumpet is not the last trumpet.

 

First Jesus meets the overcomers at the throne in 3rd heaven then through the Tribulation on the cloud then at the 7th trumpet He meets  them in the air. Then He steps down on the mount of olives with the overcomers to reign over the nations for 1000 years.

 

The Church is the Bride, but in Rev. 19 we see the bride are those who first overcometh of the Church to receive the reward of reigning like the 5 wise virgins. An advanced party if you will.

 

You failed to respond to this,

 

Some argue as you have done that according to I Thessalonians 4.15, the living “shall in no wise precede them who are fallen asleep” - The dead are resurrected at the seventh trumpet; and so timewise, rapture occurs after the Tribulation. Now if there is a first rapture, it will have to take place before the resurrection of the dead. But since this verse distinctly says “shall in no wise,” how then can rapture take place twice? Let me say in reply that it is most precious and significant to find in both verse 15 and verse 17 the qualifying clauses “we that are alive, that are left” - Now to be alive is obviously to be left on earth; why, then, is there this apparent unnecessary repetition? Because it implies that there are people who though alive yet have already gone ahead (that is, raptured) and therefore are no longer left on earth. Would Paul enlist himself among this class of people who are alive and are left? Not at all. He uses the word “we” only because he is speaking at that moment of writing, and the proof of this is that since Paul no longer lives today, he cannot be numbered among those who are left on earth. Our summary conclusion to all this is that partial rapture is the correct view - that is to say, that one group of believers will be raptured before the Tribulation according to readiness while another group of believers will go through the Tribulation and be raptured afterwards.

[Daniel 11:36]

The dead in Christ will be caught up "together" .... at the same time

 

The Lord will bring both "together" insuring that the dead in Christ will not be left

 

Remember this ..... the Lord has said that no man has gone to heaven except the One who has come down from heaven

 

So the dead in Christ are still waiting for His call and will be raised along with those living at the time who will not have time to die

 

And this event will take place just before the coming tribulation

 

The "last" trumpet sounding for the event is the "last trumpet for the church"

 

The 7 tribulation trumpets are judgment trumpets and different .... and not connected with it

 

There is the "first" trumpet sounding for the church [Revelation 1:10] .... the first formal communication by the Lord given to the church

 

.... His first formal communication to the assembled church

 

His last will be connected with His call to immortalize them

Edited October 28, 2014 by Daniel 11:36