Dying Words...

[Budman]

Because unlike most other religions where you must work for, or do something to earn your way to heaven, the God of the Bible offers salvation as a free gift to anyone who asks.

That is untrue budman. The god of the bible requires more than just asking. The god of the bible requires at least all of the following:

1) Belief that the god of the bible is indeed the one and only god

2) Repentance of alleged sins

UF, are those things work? Is that striving to somehow help earn your way to heaven?

Nope.

Of course you have to believe that Christ exists and that He died for your sins. That goes without saying. You are really just nit-picking.

You see, the reason I say that salvation is free is because it has been paid for already by Jesus.

"You are not your own; you were bought at a price." (2 Corinthians 19-20 NIV)

And as far as equating God with a used car salesman, the following are Gods words, not mine.

[UndecidedFrog]

Dear Budman, kroschild, uvn477, Botz and larryt,

This is just my opinion. You don't have to accept it if you dislike it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian.

Thank you for your responses. I shall try to address them all, but please forgive me if I don't get a chance to go too much in depth. There are just so many of you and still only one of me.

kroschild:

Why are agnostics and atheists here?

I don't know why other people are here. I can only speak for myself. I am here to communicate with people who believe differently than me.

So far I have not read any trying to pursuade us all that we are crazy. Can it be that something in atheism rings false?

Those statements are irrational. It is analogous to me saying: So far I haven't read anything to convince me that I am wrong. So therefore christiany must be false? I guess if you postulate that the world revolves around yourself, it must be so. Does it have to be a lie for all if you do not believe it? Please allow people to judge for themselves.

Do you have reason to believe there is an invisible unicorn in your garage? ...If I saw/smelt/felt evidence of an invisible unicorn in my garage, whether it be droppings, whinnying, etc--then yeah, I might consider that there is one there!

Bingo, you're on the right track here. Why should anyone believe in anything unless there is convincing evidence. Consider that I am awaiting the saw/smelt/felt evidence of god. When that happens I will consider that there is a god out there.

I have studied the world quite a bit--science, math, etc--and have come to the conclusion that it is too perfectly designed to not have a designer

What a coincidence. I too have studied the world quite a bit -- science, math etc. and have come to no such conclusion as you have.

I do not believe it possible that I could throw all the pieces for a watch into the air and come down a whole, working watch. How then could it be that the body can work just so, the earth can be tilted at Just the right angle, be Just the right distance from the sun, etc...without a plan behind it? If there is a plan, mustn't there be a planner?

You do not know how many times the pieces have been thrown in the air and how many times those attempts have failed to result in a watch. You do not know how many times bodies have failed to work just so. You do not know how other planets have been tilted other ways, be at incorrect distances from their sun etc. and failed. Where are the plans for those? And finally, you do not consider if everything had to be created and planned, who created and planned your god? Considering one exception does not prohibit consideration of other exceptions.

uvn477:

Have you ever read the Bible over and over from cover to cover?

Yes, I have. Several times, in several versions.

You prove my point by referring to Brother Bud's notion of a free gift as not being true.

"I am now asking the god of the bible to save me if he indeed exists. There....I have asked....do you now consider me "saved"? "

When you say this you do not really mean it. Repentance comes from the heart. When you tell someone you are sorry you say it from your heart. If you tell someone you are sorry and do not really mean it, many people will know and refuse to forgive you. Where's the difference with God?

I don't think you understand my point. My point is that there are REQUIREMENTS. Requirements are obligations that must be fulfilled prior to receiving the reward promised in an OFFER. An offer is not a FREE GIFT. Biblically, salvation is not referred to as a free gift. It is clearly an offer.

Free gifts have no price, no requirements, no obligations. Christian salvation has requirements and obligations, and to some, a price. If you have to repent (from the heart or anywhere else), it is a requirement.

The reason you see this as a price is because of your pride

I'm sorry to have to disagree with you here. The reason I see this as a requirement is because it is a requirement. It has nothing to do with my pride. If you do not consider repentance a requirement for salvation, please tell me why.

I believe the fact you come to this forum, and have named yourself Undecided, shows you are trying to overcome your pride as a human being. Even if you do not want it, I will be praying for you.

Do not be deceived by my screen name. It was given to me by MSN many years ago, and has nothing to do with my decision or indecision about religions. My pride is indeed under control. I take great pains to keep it so. Thank you for praying for me. If it moves your god to make himself known to me, all the better.

larryt:

I am well aware of what Matt. 5:22 says and am not calling you a fool but just informing you of what the bible says about those that refuse to serve God.

LOL. Thank you for making that clarification. So you are quoting scripture to me and allowing the precise quote from the bible to call me a fool. Forgive me for attributing the same insulting intentions to the quoter and not the tool.

I quoted the verse because it states that by wisdom you cannot know God. Your argument also fails because your premise is wrong, there are not over 10,000 gods to chose from, there is only one, there are no others.

If one cannot know the wisdom of god, how can one relate or even believe in that same god's existence? There are indeed many gods to choose from. And every believer believes that their god/s is/are the only true one(s). The bible even admits that there are more than one god. Thou shalt have no OTHER gods before me.

We are not calling the shots, He is.

If so, why hasn't he made himself known publically? Why does he require faith? I am sure if he appeared, it would make the 10 pm news. If he is calling the shots, and I am not believing his existence, he must wish it so.

Botz,

Hello friend. Long time no hear.

It is true you need to repent and believe...but the price for saving you from your sins has already been paid in full...the way you receive the gift is by repenting and believing.

Thank you for confirming my understanding of the requirements.

Budman:

UF, are those things work? Is that striving to somehow help earn your way to heaven?

I never claimed those requirements are WORK. Whether those requirements are work or not, nonetheless they are still requirements. But I guess you do not understand my very simple point.

Of course you have to believe that Christ exists and that He died for your sins. That goes without saying. You are really just nit-picking.

You see, the reason I say that salvation is free is because it has been paid for already by Jesus.

I think you are stretching the analogy too far. It is not a free gift. It is an offer. OFFER = Do this and you will get that.

GIFT = Do nothing, and get that.

I don't think one needs to give up their rationality when one is being humble.

Regards,

UndecidedFrog

[Work in Progress]

Yes, how sad it is to live your life in a rational manner

Why is being a Christian irrational, Frog??

[UndecidedFrog]

Dear WIP,

This is just my opinion. You don't have to accept it if you dislike it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian.

Why is being a Christian irrational, Frog??

I never claimed that being a christian is irrational. I'm sorry if you interpreted what I said that way. If you quoted my entire sentence, you will note that I said:

Yes, how sad it is to live your life in a rational manner, only to allow fear of the unknown overcome it in the last moments.

It is indeed sad to allow fear to overcome a lifetime of rationality. Or do you disagree? (PS: you're allowed).

Regards,

UndecidedFrog

[georgesbluegirl]

Actually, I believe that Voltaire was continually sarcastic. The priest told him to renounce Satan and his response was that "now is not a time for making enemies."

Socrates reminded a friend to pay the debt of a rooster that he owed.

Then there was Karl Marx, who spoke his last words to his housekeeper: "Go on, get out. Last words are for fools who haven't said enough."

[georgesbluegirl]

One more that I should mention - although he wasn't an atheist - George Harrison (predictable, right?). But it's worth mentioning. His last words were "Love one another."

[kroschild]

Froggie,

On the gift thing....have you ever tried to hand out brochures on the street? Think of it like this: the brochure (salvation) is free, and you reach out to give it to the person standing nearby. The person has to take it in order for them to receive the gift, but if they refuse to do so, it makes it no less of a gift.

You said:

Free gifts have no price, no requirements, no obligations.

No, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have to be accepted! The person receiving a gift has to reach out and take it--this may signify that they believe the person giving it to them will not drop it, snatch it back, etc (the receiver has to have faith in the giver). If the receipient does not take the gift, how does that make it any less free? And I do think one thing is wrong: gifts do come with certain obligations. How rude is a person who takes a gift, only to throw it away? Especially if it is something very precious, they will take it and care for it. God's gift is the same way: we have the obligation to care about it because of its priceless nature.

So far I have not read any trying to pursuade us all that we are crazy. Can it be that something in atheism rings false?

Those statements are irrational. It is analogous to me saying: So far I haven't read anything to convince me that I am wrong. So therefore christiany must be false? I guess if you postulate that the world revolves around yourself, it must be so. Does it have to be a lie for all if you do not believe it?  Please allow people to judge for themselves. 

Hmm....I am a little confused. Maybe you misunderstood me? All I meant was that (up to that point in the posts) you did not seem to be saying anything to contradict Christianity, but rather simply raising questions. From certain things you have said, it seemed that you might not be an atheist, but an agnostic. I have since extended that to include the possibility that you may also just be trying to be polite. As far as thinking the world revolves around myself, I would think that atheism does that far more than Christianity....that is not meant to be an antagonistic statement, but rather a thoughtful question. Many of the atheists I know are convinced that there is no God based on their own superiority; their lack of need of a God. I am sure you have heard the argument that Christianity is for the weak to lean on. If this is not your take, please let me know what is--I am honestly curious of the non-superiorist logic.

Do you have reason to believe there is an invisible unicorn in your garage? ...If I saw/smelt/felt evidence of an invisible unicorn in my garage, whether it be droppings, whinnying, etc--then yeah, I might consider that there is one there!

Bingo, you're on the right track here. Why should anyone believe in anything unless there is convincing evidence. Consider that I am awaiting the saw/smelt/felt evidence of god. When that happens I will consider that there is a god out there.

Although I doubt you missed my suggestion, let me clarify: there IS convincing evidence of a creator. The perfection of the workings of the world could just have easily (if not more so) been created by designer as by accident.

And finally, you do not consider if everything had to be created and planned, who created and planned your god? Considering one exception does not prohibit consideration of other exceptions.

Actually, I believe I said that this world seems to have been created. As I am sure you know (since you do seem to be well educated in Christian beliefs) most Christians believe that God exists out of time, as described in the Bible. Unfortunately, this would be a harder point to prove--it is clearly a theological issue, and those tend to use the Bible as a source. Since you would obviously not believe in the Bible as an inspired message from God, it would be hard to make this claim. Existence outside of time is not something humans are capable of. I regret that I cannot use science to explain this, but since God is something that exists outside of our scientific explanation of time, this is impossible.

I would be more than happy to argue other scientific proofs with you! To explain "outside of time" is beyond me--I am not that gifted! Other than that, please feel free to broaden to other arguments. I will do my best to reply using worldly proofs that you may accept since using the Bible would be irrelevent at this point. I truly am enjoying out (small) debate! You are one of the few non-believers I have met able to discuss this without resorting to insults LOL (yes, I know I must have known some bad ones!).

Continually curious,

KrosChild

[UndecidedFrog]

Dear georgesbluegirl,

This is just my opinion. You don't have to accept it if you dislike it. DISCLAIMER: I am not a christian.

His last words were "Love one another."

I like that.

Dear Kroschild,

Think of it like this: the brochure (salvation) is free, and you reach out to give it to the person standing nearby. The person has to take it in order for them to receive the gift, but if they refuse to do so, it makes it no less of a gift

I choose to think of a gift more akin to...here is $100 cash, I'm leaving it on this table for you. The recipient can choose to lift his hand and take the cash or not, but nonetheless it is a gift. The thing that makes it a gift is not the intentions or behaviour of the intended recipient, it is the intention of the giver. If the intention of the giver is to receive something in return (some performance of the intended recipient), it is not a gift. It is an offer.

Whether the intended recipient receives the gift is irrelevant. What are the intentions of the giver? Are there certain requirements beyond taking the gift? Do you equate believing the giver is god, and repentance of sin as non-requirements?

All I meant was that (up to that point in the posts) you did not seem to be saying anything to contradict Christianity, but rather simply raising questions

And all I was pointing out was that the raised questions were irrational. Just because you are not convinced of an argument doesn't mean that the argument isn't valid to others. I am sure most christians believe for their own reasons. It's just that they have been unable to convince me that those reasons are as valid for me. I do not go about and raise the question that maybe what they believe "rings" false.

From certain things you have said, it seemed that you might not be an atheist, but an agnostic. I have since extended that to include the possibility that you may also just be trying to be polite.

You can call me anything you want. The fact is that I call myself atheist. The meaning of atheist is one who has no beliefs in any god/s. It is derived from latin as follows:

A = without

Theism = belief in god/s

A+theism = without belief in god/s

There is a subset of atheist that claim there are no gods. But one does not have to adhere to that claim to be an atheist. All one has to do is to not have any beliefs in any god/s.

Thank you for noticing that I am trying to be polite. I try all the time.

As far as thinking the world revolves around myself, I would think that atheism does that far more than Christianity....that is not meant to be an antagonistic statement, but rather a thoughtful question.

I think there are some people who are atheist and some people who are christian who think the world revolves around them. I do not try to generalize specific behaviour to groups of people. I was making a point that I saw that behaviour in the way you raised the question of:

So far I have not read any trying to pursuade us all that we are crazy. Can it be that something in atheism rings false?

Do you not see how the argument is structured? Because YOU have not read anything to persuade YOU .....can it be that something rings false? The argument is based on YOUR judgment.

Many of the atheists I know are convinced that there is no God based on their own superiority; their lack of need of a God. I am sure you have heard the argument that Christianity is for the weak to lean on. If this is not your take, please let me know what is--I am honestly curious of the non-superiorist logic.

There are some atheists as I have mentioned before that claim that there are no gods, but I think they do not base it on "their superiority" as you claim. The arguments I have heard are that the probability is so small to them, that the chances of any deity existing is rather slim. BTW, this is not something I claim.

Yes, I have heard many arguments about what christians are in general and dismiss them, as I have stated before, I try not to stereotype groups of people until I have enough personal statistics of my own experiences.

My take is that I do not know if any god/s exist. I have seen/smelt/felt no evidence to convince me that any deities exist. That doesn't mean that they do not exist. It means that I haven't experienced any evidence to support their existence. Until I have that evidence, I have no beliefs in these deities.

let me clarify: there IS convincing evidence of a creator. The perfection of the workings of the world could just have easily (if not more so) been created by designer as by accident.

I'm sorry, but I do not see any convincing evidence of any creator. You see the world and deduce a creator. I do not deduce likewise.

Actually, I believe I said that this world seems to have been created. As I am sure you know (since you do seem to be well educated in Christian beliefs) most Christians believe that God exists out of time, as described in the Bible. Unfortunately, this would be a harder point to prove--it is clearly a theological issue, and those tend to use the Bible as a source. Since you would obviously not believe in the Bible as an inspired message from God, it would be hard to make this claim.

If you cannot argue this out of time situation, I will not press it. Only know that this procedure can be applied to many things. Who is to say that other things also exist out of time? Hence my statement of accepting one exception does not prohibit accepting more exceptions.

Regards,

UndecidedFrog

[kroschild]

It's 1:30 in the morning, so I will only reply to a couple of things tonight and try to get to the rest of them tomorrow.

First, by your own words you are agnostic. Just thought you might want to know the common label for your beliefs.

My take is that I do not know if any god/s exist. I have seen/smelt/felt no evidence to convince me that any deities exist. That doesn't mean that they do not exist. It means that I haven't experienced any evidence to support their existence. Until I have that evidence, I have no beliefs in these deities.

Agnosticism in a nutshell! Can't prove it either way, so choosing not to make a decision at this time, with the given evidence. It's funny how a lot of Christians think most non-believers are atheists, when this is really what they believe.

All I meant was that (up to that point in the posts) you did not seem to be saying anything to contradict Christianity, but rather simply raising questions

And all I was pointing out was that the raised questions were irrational.

I may just be tired, but I was talking here about YOUR questions, and you said the raised questions were irrational. If you are replying to what *I* was talking about, then you are saying that your own questions are irrational. I think one of us got our wires crossed.

Please clarify.

I am sure most christians believe for their own reasons. It's just that they have been unable to convince me that those reasons are as valid for me. I do not go about and raise the question that maybe what they believe "rings" false.

The thing is, there is a God or there isn't one. It's not just a matter of opinions; there is a truth to one of these. Unless there is some third option....God created the earth, then died? Kidding....I was just confused by your statement that the "reasons aren't valid for me". Um, IF I am right, then it's not so much about WHY I believe (not meaning that why I have faith is irrelevant, but that the why isnt as important --if i am right--as the fact that I do).

If my comment that it might ring false was offensive, I apologize...I didn't do as good a job *suggesting* the fact that one of us is bound to be wrong, maybe it came out too "I'm right, you're wrong".

QUOTE

So far I have not read any trying to pursuade us all that we are crazy. Can it be that something in atheism rings false?

Do you not see how the argument is structured? Because YOU have not read anything to persuade YOU .....can it be that something rings false? The argument is based on YOUR judgment.

I am still confused about your response to my question. I think maybe you misunderstood my original post (ie I wrote it late and badly LOL)

If I were to write it again, I would say:

I do not see atheists in this forum trying to convince us we are all crazy to believe in a God because other options are more scientifically sound; which is a common attack on Christians from non-Christians. Perhaps they are here because atheism is not completely satisfying--esp. considering the lack of "missing link" which would completely prove evolution.

However, since you have since made it clear that you do not believe in God at the moment, lacking further proof, this point is irrelevant. Atheists who believe 100% that there is no God, and "preach" evolution, would have applied to this theory I offered. People still desiring to learn the truth, whatever that may be, would not.

I hope that clarifies...if that is what you thought I meant all along, please help me understand (given our only option of written communication) what your reply means.

If you cannot argue this out of time situation, I will not press it. Only know that this procedure can be applied to many things. Who is to say that other things also exist out of time? Hence my statement of accepting one exception does not prohibit accepting more exceptions.

Actually, I do believe that other things exist out of time. Angels, for one. But how would the possibility of existence outside of time aid any other argument? What would they be?

Enjoying talking the talk,

KrosChild

[Budman]

I'm just curious UF,

If you died tonight, and actually found yourself standing before God, what would be the first thing you would say to Him?

warm regards

-bud