Some Questions About The Temple and Kingdom of God

[Guest]

Isn't it all perfectly consistent?

 

That kingdom is within us, just as the literal scripture that you posted says.

 

Jesus ushered His kingdom in during the first century before some that He explained that to even died.

 

Our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit, just like the literal verses indicate.

 

We are all "fellowcitizens" in the household and kingdom of God and were built into an holy temple in the Lord for nearly 2,000 years, through the Spirit.

 

Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone.

 

Just as all of the verses indicate.

 

 

 

All

 

I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the LORD, keep not silence,

 

And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth. Isaiah 62:6-7

 

The

 

And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

 

And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

 

In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowl's before the altar. Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts. Zechariah 14:16-21

 

Verses

 

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

 

And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

 

And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. Revelation 20:7-9

[PeteWaldo]

Hi Pete,

 

Night, night. Just to clarify what I was saying -

 

`The earth is the Lord`s & all it contains, the world, & those who dwell in it.`  (Ps. 24: 1)

 

Thus we agree that God `allowed the kingdoms of the world to be Satan`s legal possession ever since Adam`s fall,` as you so rightly said, I believe. So it is just the judging of man`s system of governing that is coming up, when the Gentile Government is judged & Israel will rule as God has always promised. God`s rule will then be enforced upon the people of this world.

 

You agree that the kingdoms of this world are Satan's legal possession, but then seem to indicate that there would be a need for judgment on them. Since you agree they are Satan's, what's left to judge? Which is the least driven by Satan? I don't wonder if He may be passing judgment on Europe even today, for abandoning Him in the prophesied apostasy, and the punishment on the unregenerate there being Islam. It wouldn't be the first time God used His enemies as a tool of punishment.

 

For your question about God dwelling in a temple of human hands. I believe God`s word tells us that He is omnipresent & thus by His Holy Spirit is everywhere.

Exactly, me too. He in us and we in Him. A temple of God through the Spirit and His kingdom is within us too. So why would there be need for a physical temple, particularly built by by the hands of men (which the scriptures indicate that God would specifically not dwell in), any more than there has been a need for a temple over the last nearly 2,000 years?

Why would the temple that Jesus built in 3 days, through the perfect sacrifice of the Lamb of God, be so imperfect and so insufficient as to require a physical temple of this world? Because it would be better than the one Jesus built through His sacrifice?

 

However to `dwell,` indicates a presence of relationship.

But you already indicated a relationship through the Spirit. I am in the kingdom of God today, and will be forever.

And doesn't dwell mean dwell? Live there? Hang out there?

Gen 21:21 And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.

Doesn't that mean Ishmael lived in the wilderness of Paran?

Whether in your house, or in your neighborhood, or in the household of God that His people dwell in presently (while in this temporal life), and will continue to dwell in with our fellow saints and Lord and Savior forever (after we pass from this temporal life). Old Testament or New:

Act 11:29 Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea:

Jesus already built our temple nearly 2,000 years ago, and we are indeed connected personally through the Spirit as you indicate. When the ecclesa meet, it doesn't matter whether it is online like here, or in someone's living room (like in the 1st century), or under a shade tree.

Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

 

Thus I believe in the Millennium the Lord dwells with His people in a very real, presence way.

But He came in His kindgom 2,000 years ago. Don't you imagine that literally dwelling with our Lord in heaven, would be unimaginably better, than continuing to be stuck in a temporal world - let alone for a thousand years? Would that be something to look forward to? So we could suffer watching the spectacle of sinners falling to temptation and the trap of sin? Don't we get enough of that in this world?

That is however how Muhammad described paradise through his carnal imagination. The "worthy" such as himself perched on jewel encrusted thrones, with for what he called "entertainment", the ability to gaze down into hell for the amusement of watching those who didn't do quite enough good deeds, be tortured by the hand of his "Allah".

 

His rulership of righteousness & peace, as well as the rod of iron, will reign supreme.

He certainly already rules over me with a rod of iron, in His kingdom, today! Folks over who's lives He doesn't, might want to review what they understand about their relationship with Him.

And if His Second Coming occurs before I die, at the sound of the seventh angel, I expect what the scriptures indicate:

Revelation 11:15  And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Edited November 9, 2014 by PeteWaldo

[PeteWaldo]

Anybody is welcome to reply to this, and I guess the question I have is why would folks want to stick Jesus into a physical temple on earth made by the hands of men, even though He built His temple in 3 days at the time that He also ushered in His kingdom, nearly two thousand years ago? The temple that was built through the perfect sacrifice of the spotless Lamb of God. 

 

Now I can understand why some faithful Jews, who may remain blinded to the Gospel by God Himself, could have an interest in building yet another temple on the temple mount. Even how they could have an interest in resuming animal sacrifices for atonement of sin. Earlier I mentioned that since some faithful Jews still labor under the old covenant, might God have blinded some of them to the Gospel, so they couldn't sin against it?

Romans 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
17  And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
25  For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

 

So could it be that Jews blinded to the Gospel can't transgress new covenant commandments, because God prevented them from even seeing the Gospel? Might they be saved through that ignorance to the Gospel, just as perhaps tribesmen in a remote village, or little kids or the mentally challenged may be, that never received an understanding? Faithful Jews whose lives revolve around their faith based community, doing what they can to please our Lord as their fathers have for 3500 years, that may be saved through their faith as Abraham was?

 

But Christians have not been blinded to the Gospel. So of what purpose would a Christian believe any blood sacrifices over the last 2,000 years, or at any time in the future, would serve?

 

Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

 

Doesn't it seem that a Christian, championing a need for future blood sacrifice of animals in a restoration of the old covenant, would be walking in stunningly egregious error, to put it mildly? Do the scriptures indicate such a restoration, or the exact opposite?

 

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

 

What purpose would a physical replacement, for the temple that Jesus built nearly 2,000 years ago, serve, if indeed Jews have been saved as a result of their blindness and faith in our great God YHWH, for the last nearly two thousand years?

Edited November 9, 2014 by PeteWaldo

[Enoch2021]

Anybody is welcome to reply to this, and I guess the question I have is why would folks want to stick Jesus into a physical temple on earth made by the hands of men, even though He built His temple in 3 days at the time that He also ushered in His kingdom, nearly two thousand years ago? The temple that was built through the perfect sacrifice of the spotless Lamb of God. 

 

Now I can understand why some faithful Jews, who may remain blinded to the Gospel by God Himself, could have an interest in building yet another temple on the temple mount. Even how they could have an interest in resuming animal sacrifices for atonement of sin. Earlier I mentioned that since some faithful Jews still labor under the old covenant, might God have blinded some of them to the Gospel, so they couldn't sin against it?

Romans 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

17  And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

25  For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

 

So could it be that Jews blinded to the Gospel can't transgress new covenant commandments, because God prevented them from even seeing the Gospel? Might they be saved through that ignorance to the Gospel, just as perhaps tribesmen in a remote village, or little kids or the mentally challenged may be, that never received an understanding? Faithful Jews whose lives revolve around their faith based community, doing what they can to please our Lord as their fathers have for 3500 years, that may be saved through their faith as Abraham was?

 

But Christians have not been blinded to the Gospel. So of what purpose would a Christian believe any blood sacrifices over the last 2,000 years, or at any time in the future, would serve?

 

Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

 

Doesn't it seem that a Christian, championing a need for future blood sacrifice of animals in a restoration of the old covenant, would be walking in stunningly egregious error, to put it mildly? Do the scriptures indicate such a restoration, or the exact opposite?

 

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

 

What purpose would a physical replacement, for the temple that Jesus built nearly 2,000 years ago, serve, if indeed Jews have been saved as a result of their blindness and faith in our great God YHWH, for the last nearly two thousand years?

 

 

=======================================================================================================

 

So is your position that there is No Millennium or that the Millennium Started over 2,000 Years ago?  Then that would mean that the events of Revelation have already taken place...or do you dismiss...in it's Entirety, The Book Of Revelation? And a Healthy Chunk of the Book Of Daniel, among many others? 

 

If any of those above apply, You got Encyclopedic Volumes of Problems.  For Brevity, let's stick with just a couple (They'll be quite sufficient).

 

1.  Daniel 2 speaks of the Last 5 "Literal" Kingdoms on the Earth, the last being...

 

(Daniel 2:44-45) "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.  {45} Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure."

 

This is Christ's Kingdom "The Stone" = Jesus Christ.  It's a Literal Kingdom....on the Earth.

 

The Gold is Babylon, The Silver is Medo-Persia (Iran), The Brass is Greece, The Iron is Rome.  Has Christ's "Literal" Kingdom, Broke these in Pieces and consumed them??  Google still has these places as currently Existing.

 

 

2.  Are you familiar with what Gabriel said to Mary, Literally and Specifically?.....

 

(Luke 1:31-32) "And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.  {32} He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:"

 

Has Christ ever ruled from the Throne of David?  Was the Throne of David even in existence @ the time of Christ?

 

If you're still unsure, lets get a second witness....James @ the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15.  There were 2 issues for the Council; the first, what do gentiles need to do to be Saved.  But then a Bigger issue arose...What's to become of Israel?

 

Well James says....

 

(Acts 15:13-16) " And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:  {14} Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.  {15} And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,  {16} After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:"

 

Which is Basically Quoting a Third Witness, Amos 9:11 ....

 

(Amos 9:11) "In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:"

 

 

Unless you can show The Throne Of David...AND, Christ RULING from it, Then any position (outlined above) is Untenable x 10^{00000000000000000000000000000000000------>}

 

 

Earlier I mentioned that since some faithful Jews still labor under the old covenant, might God have blinded some of them to the Gospel, so they couldn't sin against it?

 

 

You then use this verse to support "your" thesis.....Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

 

The Gospel is Defined here.....

 

(1 Corinthians 15:1-4) "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;  {2} By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.  {3} For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;  {4} And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"

 

That's The Gospel

 

Romans 11:25 speaks to Blindness in Relation to "Not Knowing Christ is The Messiah"....not, Not knowing the Gospel.  The Gospel is as clear today as it was then.  Ask any Jew, they surely know it!

 

Moreover, It's the Reason for the "Great Tribulation".....

 

(Hosea 5:15) " I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."

 

The Jews Offence = Rejecting Christ Personally.  From the moment Jesus spoke the First Parable....(Matthew 13:10-11) "And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?  {11} He answered and said unto them,  Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given."

 

Until this very second....and, up to the Time They (The Jews) Petition HIM to Return, Personally.

 

 

Doesn't it seem that a Christian, championing a need for future blood sacrifice of animals in a restoration of the old covenant, would be walking in stunningly egregious error, to put it mildly? Do the scriptures indicate such a restoration, or the exact opposite?

 

 

Why would it?  This would be Post Rapture, Post Bema Seat, Post Wedding/Marriage Supper.... The Jig is Well Up, to coin a Phrase. They (Christians) wouldn't be "Championing" anything.  They would be merely following Christ's Directives.

 

Caveat:  I'm still studying where "The Church" will be in the Millennium; however, the comment still stands.

 

 

I wanted to keep this as brief as possible but it still went longer than I wanted.  So please don't take my silence on the other parts of your post as an agreement or a punt.

 

Thanks 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Enoch2021,
 
I truly respect you for saying that -

`Caveat: I'm still studying where "The Church" will be in the Millennium...`

 

Blessings bro. Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Pete,

 

Now you said -

`You agree that the kingdoms of this world are Satan's legal possession, but then seem to indicate that there would be a need for judgment on them. Since you agree they are Satan's, what's left to judge?`

 

Now I should have qualified what I mean. Satan deceived mankind, as we know, & usurped control over man. But he is still accountable to God. Mankind is also accountable to God as to how he rules.

 

`And surely I will require your lifeblood; from every beast I will require it. And from every man, from every man`s brother I will require the life of man. :Whoever sheds man`s blood, by man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man.` (Gen. 9: 4 & 5)

 

Thus it is not only murder that is required by God, but all manner of `lesser` wrong acts. This is government of man by man. Thus God will judge man for how he governs mankind. This is the Gentile nations ruling the world. There has been 5 world rulers & God says there is one more world ruler to come & then He will judge man`s system of government. Israel under God will then rule as God has promised for the 1,000 years to give Israel the rulership & the nations the opportunity to learn of God`s ways with out Satan.

 

Note - the Body of Christ is just a parenthesis to this ongoing of Israel & the nations. We have a special purpose, not of our doing but of Christ`s. And the others have their calling & purpose also. We can talk on these purposes some time in the future.

 

Blessings, Marilyn. 

[PeteWaldo]

 

Anybody is welcome to reply to this, and I guess the question I have is why would folks want to stick Jesus into a physical temple on earth made by the hands of men, even though He built His temple in 3 days at the time that He also ushered in His kingdom, nearly two thousand years ago? The temple that was built through the perfect sacrifice of the spotless Lamb of God. 

 

Now I can understand why some faithful Jews, who may remain blinded to the Gospel by God Himself, could have an interest in building yet another temple on the temple mount. Even how they could have an interest in resuming animal sacrifices for atonement of sin. Earlier I mentioned that since some faithful Jews still labor under the old covenant, might God have blinded some of them to the Gospel, so they couldn't sin against it?

Romans 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

17  And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

25  For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

 

So could it be that Jews blinded to the Gospel can't transgress new covenant commandments, because God prevented them from even seeing the Gospel? Might they be saved through that ignorance to the Gospel, just as perhaps tribesmen in a remote village, or little kids or the mentally challenged may be, that never received an understanding? Faithful Jews whose lives revolve around their faith based community, doing what they can to please our Lord as their fathers have for 3500 years, that may be saved through their faith as Abraham was?

 

But Christians have not been blinded to the Gospel. So of what purpose would a Christian believe any blood sacrifices over the last 2,000 years, or at any time in the future, would serve?

 

Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

 

Doesn't it seem that a Christian, championing a need for future blood sacrifice of animals in a restoration of the old covenant, would be walking in stunningly egregious error, to put it mildly? Do the scriptures indicate such a restoration, or the exact opposite?

 

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

 

What purpose would a physical replacement, for the temple that Jesus built nearly 2,000 years ago, serve, if indeed Jews have been saved as a result of their blindness and faith in our great God YHWH, for the last nearly two thousand years?

 

 

=======================================================================================================

 

So is your position that there is No Millennium or that the Millennium Started over 2,000 Years ago?  Then that would mean that the events of Revelation have already taken place...or do you dismiss...in it's Entirety, The Book Of Revelation? And a Healthy Chunk of the Book Of Daniel, among many others? 

 

If any of those above apply, You got Encyclopedic Volumes of Problems.  For Brevity, let's stick with just a couple (They'll be quite sufficient).

 

Is it my position that the Son of Man came in His kingdom nearly 2,000 years ago?

 

Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

 

Or is it you that denies that Jesus came in His kingdom, before some of those standing before Him died in the first century, just as He promised them He would?

 

Then that would mean that the events of Revelation have already taken place...

 

No that would mean that the book of Revelation has been being fulfilled throughout the Christian era, just as the church understood, throughout its first 1800 years.

For example as expressed by Isaac Newton: "This Prophecy is called the Revelation, with respect to the scripture of truth, which Daniel was commanded to shut up and seal, till the time of the end. Daniel sealed it until the time of the end; {Daniel 12:4, 9} and until that time comes, the Lamb is opening the seals:..."

The term for the traditional view that Christ has been ruling and reigning in His kingdom throughout the Christian era is called "amillennialism".

 

Further, as I already expressed in the thread on the subject the Greek word for a single 1000 is "chilias", but the word used in Rev 20 is "chilioi" which is an indefinite plural, that could indicate many thousands. This doesn't mean that it can't indicate a single thousand, but If something as important as a whole doctrine surrounding a single future thousand year reign were meant, don't you think "chilias" would have been a better choice?

 

Then that would mean that the events of Revelation have already taken place...or do you dismiss...in it's Entirety, The Book Of Revelation? And a Healthy Chunk of the Book Of Daniel, among many others?

 

My approach to Bible prophecy is in the church tradition of historicism. The same approach through which you yourself understand Old Testament prophecy was fulfilled. The same approach through which the available evidence suggests the church approached New Testament prophecy, before John Darby penned his futurist doctrine in the 19th century, that was popularized in the 20th century church through by C.I. Scofield's annotated Bible. In other words I take a uniform approach to all Bible prophecy, while you switch from historicism for the OT, to the pop-eschatological approach of futurism when it comes to the book of Revelation.

 

Through the traditional historicist approach it is my understanding, that the books of Revelation and Daniel have been being fulfilled throughout the Christian era, as great men of God of the Reformation like Isaac Newton and Matthew Henry did, and as the church understood before the 20th century. Indeed as my thread on the subject indicates I believe that these books are at least nearly fulfilled.

You even participated in the thread, so unless you ignored the first two posts I can't imagine how you could come up with the notion, ".....do you dismiss...in it's Entirety, The Book Of Revelation?", when I explained how I believe that Muhammad is indeed THE false prophet of the book of Revelation, and his Islam kingdom "beast" of Revelation 13 the final foe of God's people, and recognize the restoration of Jews to their land and city as marking the beginning of what Daniel's prophecy refers to as the "time of the end".

 

Thus, through the church traditional approach of historicism, it is my understanding that those books are at least nearly fulfilled. The difficulty you are having in understanding what I post, as your reply well demonstrates, is that you are trying to wring an entirely different approach to prophecy, through the filter of pre-conceived notions from the approach you have been taught and currently hold. The only way you will be able to even begin to see, is if you decide to consider the traditional historicist approach entirely on its own merit, and then judge between, futurism, preterism and the tradition of historicism, each independently on its own merit. Only then will you be able to judge which of the 3 approaches to prophecy has "Encyclopedic Volumes of Problems". Righteous judgment through knowledge, rather than doctrinal insistence while remaining ignorant, to at least one of the other entire approaches.

 

If any of those above apply, You got Encyclopedic Volumes of Problems.

 

I well understand that the tiny peeks into what I was allowed to present through the traditional approach before being stopped, do not fit in with Darby's "7-year tribulation" "pre-trib" "rapture" "future rebuilt temple" "The Antichrist" "millennial reign" eschatological scheme, however understanding the books of Daniel and Revelation through the tradition of historicism is well supported by those of the former age, and the historical record of kingdom succession, as well as present day reality, of John's "world".

#entry2163199

 

Could it be that the one that has "Encyclopedic Volumes of Problems" could be the one that failed to reply to the content of the post that he quoted?

 

Perhaps the greatest difficulty in exegesis of scripture arises when one first begins with interpretation, of the figurative language, of prophetic dreams and visions in Old Testament prophecy, before turning to the literal language of literal passages of New Testament scripture. For example the pop-eschatology of futurism comes from the 19th century pen of John Darby (who is regarded as "the father of modern Dispensationalism and Futurism"). The basis of that scheme begins with his understanding of the book of Daniel suggesting that there would be a 7 year period of tribulation in Darby's future. But since the book of Daniel was sealed until the "time of the end", wouldn't any individual's understanding of it in the mid-19th century, at best be seriously compromised, and perhaps even egregious error? Yet the understanding of futurists today, is the very same as John Darby's, from the mid-19th century.

 

But let's get to the questions of this thread, some of which you ignored, even in the post you quoted.

 

1. Did the Son of Man come in His kingdom in the 1st century, as He prophesied that He would, or not?

 

2. Was the temple that Jesus built in 3 days through His crucifixion, death and resurrection, somehow so insufficient, and so incomplete, as to require that a physical temple to be built in the future by the hands of men?

Particularly in light of the scriptures that unequivocally state in literal language of a literal passage of New Testament, that God doesn't well in temples made with hands.

 

3. If faithful Jews are saved through their faith in our great God YHWH, since YHWH Himself blinded some of them to the Gospel so that they couldn't transgress new covenant law (no law no transgression), what would the purpose of a physical temple built by men's hands be?

Particularly if indeed the New Testament scriptures indicate that Jews and Christians have been saved by faith over the last 2,000 years. It should be obvious that any animal sacrifice under a restoration of the old covenant would be irrelevant at best.

 

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

 

Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

 

4. A curious question. How many weeks or months have you spent in the study of New Testament Bible prophecy, through the same traditional historicist approach through which you understand Old Testament prophecy was fulfilled, while judging the approach completely on its own merit without filtering it through pre-conceived notion or futurist eschatology you have been taught?

Edited November 10, 2014 by PeteWaldo

[OneLight]

I see Jesus explaining it very nicely in Luke 17:20-21

 

Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

 

Indeed and amen bro! Yet no shortage still seem to expect to say: "See here!' or 'See there!" to the physical.

 

The kingdom He spoke of is the security of being Gods child, sealed by the Holy Spirit.  Jesus will physically return soon.

 

I believe soon Jesus will arrive physically, in His Second Coming too. How much worse does this world have to get?!!

Coming in final judgment, at the last trump, when time itself will cease to exist.

Well, I'm up a couple hours past my bedtime bro. Night night.

 

I do believe the rapture will occur at the last trump, but His judgment will not be at that time, nor will time cease to exist at the last trumpet.  His judgment comes later and time will continue to exist, though we will not take part in it for time is about how we measure this existence.

 

Good morning OneLight. Pop-bible versions may offer the impression that time doesn't end at the last trump - voice of the seventh angel - through translations of convenience driven by futurist doctrine, since if time ended there couldn't be anything further that is measured by time.

 

Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

 

They substitute the word "delay", where the KJV used "time", in this verse. Perhaps to buy more time?!:-)

 

Check Strong's and you will find the word is:

chronos

1. time either long or short

 

I believe the verse means just what it says, that time itself will be no longer. If delay had been meant as in:

 

Act 25:17 Therefore, when they were come hither, without any delay on the morrow I sat on the judgment seat, and commanded the man to be brought forth.

 

Strong's again:

anabolē

1. delay, a putting off

 

If delay had been meant in Rev 10:6 why wouldn't the Greek term that actually means delay have been used?

Time will be finished and we will then be in God's state of timelessness that exists outside of time when:

 

Revelation 10:7  But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

 

Did that say the mystery should be "finished except for this or that"?

 

Revelation 11:15  And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

Reign forever and ever, in the kingdom He brought in the 1st century. Not on earth for some randomly placed thousand years of some future someday. Look again at the verse from Ezekiel that I posted regarding the temple that Joe thought was to be yet in the future: ".....the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever....."

 

Isn't it all perfectly consistent? That kingdom is within us, just as the literal scripture that you posted says. Jesus ushered His kingdom in during the first century before some that He explained that to even died. Our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit, just like the literal verses indicate. We are all "fellowcitizens" in the household and kingdom of God and were built into an holy temple in the Lord through the Spirit, for nearly 2,000 years. Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone. Just as all of the verses indicate.

 

Tough I do complement you for doing a word search, you really need to do a better job and go beyond what Strong's gives and look at what the Greek dictionaries tell us.  Even within the simplicity of Strong's, it gives the following:

 

G5550 chronos

 

"of uncertain derivation;

a space of time (in general, and thus properly distinguished from G2540, which designates a fixed or special occasion; and from G165, which denotes a particular period) or interval; by extension, an individual opportunity; by implication, delay.

KJV: + years old, season, space, (X often-)time(-s), (a) while."

 

It does not mean that time ceases to exist.

 

The same part of the verse in Greek says:

• chronos ouk estai eti
• time not shall-be still

I have no idea where you were going with the rest of the post or how it even ties into what we are discussing.

[OneLight]

 

So is your position that there is No Millennium or that the Millennium Started over 2,000 Years ago?  Then that would mean that the events of Revelation have already taken place...or do you dismiss...in it's Entirety, The Book Of Revelation? And a Healthy Chunk of the Book Of Daniel, among many others? 

 

If any of those above apply, You got Encyclopedic Volumes of Problems.  For Brevity, let's stick with just a couple (They'll be quite sufficient).

 

Is it my position that the Son of Man came in His kingdom nearly 2,000 years ago?

 

Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

 

Or is it you that denies that Jesus came in His kingdom, before some of those standing before Him died in the first century, just as He promised them He would?

The term for the view that Christ has been ruling and reigning in His kingdom throughout the Christian era is called "amillennialism".

 

Now I can see why your posts make no sense to me. Please, do us all the pleasure of outlining in a timeline where every one of the events in Revelation occurred, from the first seal to the last bowl. This will save many hours of back and forth posting trying to garner information of what you believe.

[PeteWaldo]

 

 

 

 

 

 

I see Jesus explaining it very nicely in Luke 17:20-21

 

Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

 

 

Indeed and amen bro! Yet no shortage still seem to expect to say: "See here!' or 'See there!" to the physical.

 

 

The kingdom He spoke of is the security of being Gods child, sealed by the Holy Spirit.  Jesus will physically return soon.

 

 

I believe soon Jesus will arrive physically, in His Second Coming too. How much worse does this world have to get?!!

Coming in final judgment, at the last trump, when time itself will cease to exist.

Well, I'm up a couple hours past my bedtime bro. Night night.

 

 

I do believe the rapture will occur at the last trump, but His judgment will not be at that time, nor will time cease to exist at the last trumpet.  His judgment comes later and time will continue to exist, though we will not take part in it for time is about how we measure this existence.

 

 

Good morning OneLight. Pop-bible versions may offer the impression that time doesn't end at the last trump - voice of the seventh angel - through translations of convenience driven by futurist doctrine, since if time ended there couldn't be anything further that is measured by time.

 

Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

 

They substitute the word "delay", where the KJV used "time", in this verse. Perhaps to buy more time?!:-)

 

Check Strong's and you will find the word is:

chronos

1. time either long or short

 

I believe the verse means just what it says, that time itself will be no longer. If delay had been meant as in:

 

Act 25:17 Therefore, when they were come hither, without any delay on the morrow I sat on the judgment seat, and commanded the man to be brought forth.

 

Strong's again:

anabolē

1. delay, a putting off

 

If delay had been meant in Rev 10:6 why wouldn't the Greek term that actually means delay have been used?

Time will be finished and we will then be in God's state of timelessness that exists outside of time when:

 

Revelation 10:7  But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

 

Did that say the mystery should be "finished except for this or that"?

 

Revelation 11:15  And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

Reign forever and ever, in the kingdom He brought in the 1st century. Not on earth for some randomly placed thousand years of some future someday. Look again at the verse from Ezekiel that I posted regarding the temple that Joe thought was to be yet in the future: ".....the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever....."

 

Isn't it all perfectly consistent? That kingdom is within us, just as the literal scripture that you posted says. Jesus ushered His kingdom in during the first century before some that He explained that to even died. Our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit, just like the literal verses indicate. We are all "fellowcitizens" in the household and kingdom of God and were built into an holy temple in the Lord through the Spirit, for nearly 2,000 years. Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone. Just as all of the verses indicate.

 

 

Tough I do complement you for doing a word search, you really need to do a better job and go beyond what Strong's gives and look at what the Greek dictionaries tell us.  Even within the simplicity of Strong's, it gives the following:

 

G5550 chronos

 

"of uncertain derivation;

a space of time (in general, and thus properly distinguished from G2540, which designates a fixed or special occasion; and from G165, which denotes a particular period) or interval; by extension, an individual opportunity; by implication, delay.

KJV: + years old, season, space, (X often-)time(-s), (a) while."

 

It does not mean that time ceases to exist.

 

The same part of the verse in Greek says:

• chronos ouk estai eti
• time not shall-be still

   

I have no idea where you were going with the rest of the post or how it even ties into what we are discussing.

 

 

You can't even seem to see that what you quoted would seem to reinforce the view that time will be no longer. That time itself, whether "a space of time, or interval" will cease to exist.

It says "by implication, delay." so in order for it to "imply" "delay" would require an accommodating context. I would suggest that the last trump, and voice of the 7th angel end of all things, is perhaps the last context in which delay would be implied. Further I showed you the Greek word for "delay" which would.

 

I stated where I was going with it. That if at the last trump (or sound of the seventh angel) the mystery of God is finished, and we are forever on God's time, then we will be joining Him in being outside of time. That being the case there wouldn't even be such a thing as a further concept of a period of 1,000 years.

 

Paul was addressing the church in the following, so we have every reason to believe that the church is the "we". Paul and you and I and the rest of the body of Christ.

 

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,  52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Not a few trumps before the last, but at the last trump. Additionally, if there is any THEY group, I am pretty confident I would not want to be in it!

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord....

 

Revelation 10:7  But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

 

Revelation 11:15  And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

 

What is done? The mystery of God as he declared to his servants the prophets.

Final judgment. The "day of the Lord".

 

Anyone who has deceived themselves into believing they became a Christian because they parroted a "sinner's prayer" after making a "decision", even as they are well aware they remain in serial sin, will be "left behind" forever. No second chance at repentance, because of judgment deferred for 7 years. No second bite at the apple.

Edited November 10, 2014 by PeteWaldo