Back on topic as instructed to do.

[JohnD]

Hi JohnDB,

 

Now you said -

 

 

 

`He called apart the physical Jewish people (beginning with Abram) calling him the father of many physical nations (Abra[ha]m) which The Apostle Paul explained refers to the ekklesia (Church).`

 

Let`s have a look at this `calling - `God called apart Israel from the nations of the world, to be a people who would rule over & teach the nations of the world about God. Then we have another calling,` also the ekklesia, & these are another group. They are called out from Israel & from the nations, they are a `new man, a royal heavenly nation.`

 

God did not have to make another ekklesia as Israel was already one. (Acts 7: 38) `the ekklesia in the wilderness.` And the Gentiles/nations were already able to come into the blessing of Israel. (see Christ`s lineage & those of Heb. 11) But God made another ekklesia, for He called them out of Israel & the nations. And we know that God`s callings are `...irrevocable.`  (Rom. 11: 29)

 

The Apostle Paul never explained that this new ekklesia was the physical nations from Abraham. Contrary, Paul talks of this revelation that God gave Him concerning this mystery that was hidden. Gentiles coming into Abraham`s blessing was not a mystery but known. What was a mystery & not known was that God was calling a whole new group, a new ekklesia that was a `body,` the Body of Christ.

 

Blessings, Marilyn.

 

Known in ideal. Not in execution.

 

How was Abram to be the father of many nations?

 

One possible explanation, through Ishmael and the children born to him by Keturah.

 

But then the Apostle Paul's claim would not have any validity.

 

Know was the outcome of Abram's fatherhood of many nations... but how that was to be accomplished was a mystery until the new covenant which Paul explained.

[firestormx]

 

What are Gentiles who believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior excluded from because they were not born with Jewish flesh?

 

 

Now these are the names of the tribes. From the north end to the coast of the way of Hethlon, as one goeth to Hamath, Hazar-enan, the border of Damascus northward, to the coast of Hamath; for these are his sides east and west; a portion for Dan.

And by the border of Dan, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Asher.

And by the border of Asher, from the east side even unto the west side, a portion for Naphtali.

And by the border of Naphtali, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Manasseh.

And by the border of Manasseh, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Ephraim.

And by the border of Ephraim, from the east side even unto the west side, a portion for Reuben.

And by the border of Reuben, from the east side unto the west side, a portion for Judah.

And by the border of Judah, from the east side unto the west side, shall be the offering which ye shall offer of five and twenty thousand reeds in breadth, and in length as one of the other parts, from the east side unto the west side: and the sanctuary shall be in the midst of it.  Ezekiel 48

 

So from what i understand from your post you are saying the only thing Gentiles are excluded from is a Inheritance in the land of Israel itself. Is that Correct?

Edited November 21, 2014 by firestormx

[JohnD]

 

 

Circumcision of the heart is an expression that means to remove sin from one's life.  It is not a redemptive act, but rather refers to the process of sanctification after one is saved.

 

There are no spiritual Jews in heaven.  Where do you come up with that stuff?  "Jew" is an ethnic term, not a spiritual term.  The Bible NEVER uses "Jew" in a spiritual or theological sense to refer to Gentiles.

 

You are making the mistake of allowing your theology to drive your interpretation.  You have one set of Scriptures and you are imposing something you want to be true, on to the passages instead of letting them speak for themselves.  You are forcing something on the word "Jew" that the Bible does not give you the right to do.

Shiloh, please do not interpret my ignoring your responses as my not having answers.

 

I simply do not wish to keep repeating the answers to your baseless claims.

 

I quote scripture after scripture. I point out that you only share your made up opinions.

 

You are entitled to your opinions. Not my time wasted on trying to convince one who will not be convinced.

 

God bless you and open the eyes of us all.

 

That's fine with me.  I am not interested in your responses.  I am simply responding to you so that people can see the error in the posts that you make and get the proper theological gist of the passages

 

As long as I am putting the correct doctrine alongside what you are teaching, the reader can see the truth as opposed to the notion of Christians being "spiritual Jews" which is not  a biblical or Christian concept, but is wholly man-made.

 

Yeah, you are quoting Scripture.  So what?  The Mormons do that, as well.  I don't have to quote Scripture as I am using the Scriptures YOU present.  See, I don't pit the Bible against itself.  I don't use the Bible to prove the Bible wrong.   I simply show through the verses you present that you are misinterpreting them.  I use Scripture.  You provide all the Scripture I need.

 

The reason I am not convinced is because your teaching is wrong.  My claims are not baseless; otherwise, you would be able to actually refute them, which up to this point, you haven't been able to do.

 

 

As I said, you are not interested in even seeing if my responses are valid or not as you have made up your mind they are not.

 

That's all anyone sees who is not as married to the vein as you are.

 

(Married to the vein is an old miners' expression of a chap who is so convinced they have hit the mother load of gold or some precious metal that they see everything as proof it is and nothing that proves it's not even though they in fact have only an empty hole in the ground).

[JohnD]

Only Jewish born people have an inheritance in the holy land.

 

Gentile born believers inheritance is in heaven.

 

Better deal.

[firestormx]

Only Jewish born people have an inheritance in the holy land.

 

Gentile born believers inheritance is in heaven.

 

Better deal.

What about new Jerusalem that will come down from Heaven?

[Marilyn C]

Hi JohnDB,

 

Oh so glad that you recognise that the Body of Christ has a `better inheritance.`

 

Now John it is not Abraham whom I have come from but the very Lord Himself.

 

`The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.` (1 Cor. 15: 45) Abraham was just `a living soul` & had no capacity to give any of us `a spirit life.`

 

Marilyn.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

Circumcision of the heart is an expression that means to remove sin from one's life.  It is not a redemptive act, but rather refers to the process of sanctification after one is saved.

 

There are no spiritual Jews in heaven.  Where do you come up with that stuff?  "Jew" is an ethnic term, not a spiritual term.  The Bible NEVER uses "Jew" in a spiritual or theological sense to refer to Gentiles.

 

You are making the mistake of allowing your theology to drive your interpretation.  You have one set of Scriptures and you are imposing something you want to be true, on to the passages instead of letting them speak for themselves.  You are forcing something on the word "Jew" that the Bible does not give you the right to do.

Shiloh,

I've always struggled with this topic. I've always been made to feel that if you are not a Jew, then your worthless. You are nothing but trash if you are not a Jew. Jews are everything to God and gentiles are the the left over garbage that is meaningless. That is how this conversation makes me feel. I am just trying to be honest, and hope you will be patient with me. 

 

I hear what you are saying and I agree with you.   The problem theologically that we run into when it comes to the "spiritual Jew" concept is that it means that being a Gentile is unacceptable to God.  It means that when you get saved, God makes you a "Jew."  It contradicts one of the most beautiful aspects of the Gospel, which is that God loves Gentiles and Jews equally and that He has made a way for both to enter the Kingdom.  Gentiles don't have to become Jews and God never expects Gentiles to take on any vestige of Jewishness to do so.  Gentiles and Jews stand as one in the Kingdom.  The ground is level a the cross.  No one is placed at a disadvantage, and no one has any advantage over anyone else.

 

JohnDB's argument does exactly the opposite.  His argument makes being a Gentile sinful.   He spiritualized both Gentile and Jew in a way that the Bible doesn't do.  Being a Gentile is not something that one needs to be redeemed from.   God doesn't turn anyone into a spiritual Jew, because Jewishness has nothing  to do with being redeemed.

 

It elevates Jewishness to a redeemed status and that is exactly what Paul argued against in the book of Galatians and in Romans.  Both Romans and Galatians stand in opposition to any kind of elevated status for Jewish people.   Jews are just as much sinners as Gentiles are.  There is nothing inherently spiritual about being a Jew.   JohnDB is attaching value to Jewishness that is not in Scripture.

 

What is the relation of Gentiles who believe in Jesus as Lord and savior in the family of God?  Please use scripture.

 

The relation of Gentiles to Jews or to God?   See, that's the thing.  In relation to Jews, Ephesians. 2 tells us that Jews and Gentiles are one new man in Christ, relationally.  That makes no sense if Gentiles are made spiritual Jews.  The idea is that Jews and Gentiles are one new man with Gentiles remaining as they are:  Redeemed Gentiles.  If they have to be made Jews, then the "one new man" concept is defeated.  He would not make new man if he is simply turning everyone into Jews when they get saved.  Furthermore, you hit on something important.  We are saved into the family of God.  We are not saved into the Jewish people.   Gentiles don't get saved into the Jewish people.  They become the children of God.  That is their status.    In addition, Romans 11 tells us that Gentiles are grafted into the olive tree (commonwealth of Israel).  That doesn't make them Jews or Israelites.   It simply means that they are allowed to participate in the blessings of God for Israel.  But they participate as redeemed Gentiles, not as "spiritual Jews."  

 

"Jew" is not a theological term.  Neither is the word "Israel."   Both are terms that only refer to the ethnic descendents of Jacob.  When we start attaching more meaning that to those terms we run into huge theological potholes as I have demonstrated above.

 

 

Are Gentiles heirs to the promises of Abraham by Faith in Christ?

 

There is no such things as "the promises of Abraham."   God make promises TO Abraham and Gentiles through Christ participate in those promises (Gal. 3:16-29)

 

What are Gentiles who believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior excluded from because they were not born with Jewish flesh?

 

There is nothing that God offers anyone on the basis of being Jewish.  No one is guaranteed anything on the basis of being born Jewish. Your question really demonstrates to me the bad theology that is out there relative to what it means to be Jewish.  We need to get this kind of thinking away from us.  No one is more special in God's eyes because of the ethnicity they are born into. 

 

The promises God gave to Israel were conditional upon their obedience.  They were not blessed on the grounds of who they were.  The fact that God judged Israel severely multiple times ought to be enough to show us that there is no benefit or advantage to being born a Jew.

 

As I said from my point of view it's like if your not a Jew, then your not the child of God that they are. That Jews are better than everyone else. This is what it truly sounds like your saying to me. Would you please answer these questions and also elaborate on this topic and your understanding of it as much as you think is required to get your understanding across to me.

 

 

Well then you need to go back and re-read my posts as you appear to be assigning things to me that I didn't say.  I am arguing against any notion that the Jews are better than anyone  else.  It is possible that you misread John DB thinking that you were reading my words, I dunno.  But my position as been quite the opposite of what you think I am saying.  Please be more careful when reading my comments and make sure you understand what I am saying before challenging me.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

 

Circumcision of the heart is an expression that means to remove sin from one's life.  It is not a redemptive act, but rather refers to the process of sanctification after one is saved.

 

There are no spiritual Jews in heaven.  Where do you come up with that stuff?  "Jew" is an ethnic term, not a spiritual term.  The Bible NEVER uses "Jew" in a spiritual or theological sense to refer to Gentiles.

 

You are making the mistake of allowing your theology to drive your interpretation.  You have one set of Scriptures and you are imposing something you want to be true, on to the passages instead of letting them speak for themselves.  You are forcing something on the word "Jew" that the Bible does not give you the right to do.

Shiloh, please do not interpret my ignoring your responses as my not having answers.

 

I simply do not wish to keep repeating the answers to your baseless claims.

 

I quote scripture after scripture. I point out that you only share your made up opinions.

 

You are entitled to your opinions. Not my time wasted on trying to convince one who will not be convinced.

 

God bless you and open the eyes of us all.

 

That's fine with me.  I am not interested in your responses.  I am simply responding to you so that people can see the error in the posts that you make and get the proper theological gist of the passages

 

As long as I am putting the correct doctrine alongside what you are teaching, the reader can see the truth as opposed to the notion of Christians being "spiritual Jews" which is not  a biblical or Christian concept, but is wholly man-made.

 

Yeah, you are quoting Scripture.  So what?  The Mormons do that, as well.  I don't have to quote Scripture as I am using the Scriptures YOU present.  See, I don't pit the Bible against itself.  I don't use the Bible to prove the Bible wrong.   I simply show through the verses you present that you are misinterpreting them.  I use Scripture.  You provide all the Scripture I need.

 

The reason I am not convinced is because your teaching is wrong.  My claims are not baseless; otherwise, you would be able to actually refute them, which up to this point, you haven't been able to do.

 

 

As I said, you are not interested in even seeing if my responses are valid or not as you have made up your mind they are not.

It's not because I have made up mind.  It is because it is obvious that you are imposing theological concepts that are not in the Bible, on to the Bible.   You are taking "Jew" spiritiualizing it to apply to Gentiles and the Bible never does that.  What's worse is you are doing that with Scriptures where the word "Jew" doesn't appear.

 

If I asked to post ONE Scripture that uses the term, "spiritual Jew"  you cannot post it, because the Bible knows nothing of a "spiritual Jew" it is a concept YOU made up and are forcing it on to the Bible.  

 

You are trying to conform the Bible to YOUR theology. You are trying make the Bible support your made up notion of "spiritual Jew."   You committing eisogesis and allow your theology to drive your interpretation and that is why we have so much false doctrine in the church today.  Every cult out there is based on the same kind of mishandling of the Scriptures that you are employing in this thread.

 

You are taking verses that apply to the sanctification of the believer and not to someone being a mythical "spiritual Jew."   You take verses  in Galatians where Paul is instructing Gentiles that they are redeemed Gentiles, the seed of Abraham by faith, and you are perverting those verses to prove that Gentiles are spiritual Jews.  You are literally trying to use those verses to disprove what Paul was trying prove to the Gentiles.   Paul was telling Gentile believers that they didn't need to be Jewish and you are taking those verses to prove that when a Gentile gets saved, that God is making them Jewish.    It is a theological train wreck.

 

It has nothing to with any stubborn refusal to accept your teaching.   I am giving cogent theological responses as to why your position doesn't work and why you are handling the Bible incorrectly and so far you can't really respond to my arguments.  All you can do is complain that I have made the arguments.

[Guest]

....the only thing Gentiles are excluded from is a Inheritance in the land of Israel itself. Is that Correct...

 

 

In One Sense, What The Gentiles Get

 

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. Revelation 3:21

 

Is What The Levi Gets

 

But unto the tribe of Levi Moses gave not any inheritance: the LORD God of Israel was their inheritance, as he said unto them. Joshua 13:22

 

Ah Shucks

 

He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. Revelation 21:7

 

~

 

And As For The New Zion, Should I Now Be

 

Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. Revelation 3:12

 

Jealous?

 

And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Galatians 4:6

 

[firestormx]

 

 

Circumcision of the heart is an expression that means to remove sin from one's life.  It is not a redemptive act, but rather refers to the process of sanctification after one is saved.

 

There are no spiritual Jews in heaven.  Where do you come up with that stuff?  "Jew" is an ethnic term, not a spiritual term.  The Bible NEVER uses "Jew" in a spiritual or theological sense to refer to Gentiles.

 

You are making the mistake of allowing your theology to drive your interpretation.  You have one set of Scriptures and you are imposing something you want to be true, on to the passages instead of letting them speak for themselves.  You are forcing something on the word "Jew" that the Bible does not give you the right to do.

Shiloh,

I've always struggled with this topic. I've always been made to feel that if you are not a Jew, then your worthless. You are nothing but trash if you are not a Jew. Jews are everything to God and gentiles are the the left over garbage that is meaningless. That is how this conversation makes me feel. I am just trying to be honest, and hope you will be patient with me. 

 

I hear what you are saying and I agree with you.   The problem theologically that we run into when it comes to the "spiritual Jew" concept is that it means that being a Gentile is unacceptable to God.  It means that when you get saved, God makes you a "Jew."  It contradicts one of the most beautiful aspects of the Gospel, which is that God loves Gentiles and Jews equally and that He has made a way for both to enter the Kingdom.  Gentiles don't have to become Jews and God never expects Gentiles to take on any vestige of Jewishness to do so.  Gentiles and Jews stand as one in the Kingdom.  The ground is level a the cross.  No one is placed at a disadvantage, and no one has any advantage over anyone else.

 

JohnDB's argument does exactly the opposite.  His argument makes being a Gentile sinful.   He spiritualized both Gentile and Jew in a way that the Bible doesn't do.  Being a Gentile is not something that one needs to be redeemed from.   God doesn't turn anyone into a spiritual Jew, because Jewishness has nothing  to do with being redeemed.

 

It elevates Jewishness to a redeemed status and that is exactly what Paul argued against in the book of Galatians and in Romans.  Both Romans and Galatians stand in opposition to any kind of elevated status for Jewish people.   Jews are just as much sinners as Gentiles are.  There is nothing inherently spiritual about being a Jew.   JohnDB is attaching value to Jewishness that is not in Scripture.

 

What is the relation of Gentiles who believe in Jesus as Lord and savior in the family of God?  Please use scripture.

 

The relation of Gentiles to Jews or to God?   See, that's the thing.  In relation to Jews, Ephesians. 2 tells us that Jews and Gentiles are one new man in Christ, relationally.  That makes no sense if Gentiles are made spiritual Jews.  The idea is that Jews and Gentiles are one new man with Gentiles remaining as they are:  Redeemed Gentiles.  If they have to be made Jews, then the "one new man" concept is defeated.  He would not make new man if he is simply turning everyone into Jews when they get saved.  Furthermore, you hit on something important.  We are saved into the family of God.  We are not saved into the Jewish people.   Gentiles don't get saved into the Jewish people.  They become the children of God.  That is their status.    In addition, Romans 11 tells us that Gentiles are grafted into the olive tree (commonwealth of Israel).  That doesn't make them Jews or Israelites.   It simply means that they are allowed to participate in the blessings of God for Israel.  But they participate as redeemed Gentiles, not as "spiritual Jews."  

 

"Jew" is not a theological term.  Neither is the word "Israel."   Both are terms that only refer to the ethnic descendents of Jacob.  When we start attaching more meaning that to those terms we run into huge theological potholes as I have demonstrated above.

 

 

Are Gentiles heirs to the promises of Abraham by Faith in Christ?

 

There is no such things as "the promises of Abraham."   God make promises TO Abraham and Gentiles through Christ participate in those promises (Gal. 3:16-29)

 

What are Gentiles who believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior excluded from because they were not born with Jewish flesh?

 

There is nothing that God offers anyone on the basis of being Jewish.  No one is guaranteed anything on the basis of being born Jewish. Your question really demonstrates to me the bad theology that is out there relative to what it means to be Jewish.  We need to get this kind of thinking away from us.  No one is more special in God's eyes because of the ethnicity they are born into. 

 

The promises God gave to Israel were conditional upon their obedience.  They were not blessed on the grounds of who they were.  The fact that God judged Israel severely multiple times ought to be enough to show us that there is no benefit or advantage to being born a Jew.

 

As I said from my point of view it's like if your not a Jew, then your not the child of God that they are. That Jews are better than everyone else. This is what it truly sounds like your saying to me. Would you please answer these questions and also elaborate on this topic and your understanding of it as much as you think is required to get your understanding across to me.

 

 

Well then you need to go back and re-read my posts as you appear to be assigning things to me that I didn't say.  I am arguing against any notion that the Jews are better than anyone  else.  It is possible that you misread John DB thinking that you were reading my words, I dunno.  But my position as been quite the opposite of what you think I am saying.  Please be more careful when reading my comments and make sure you understand what I am saying before challenging me.

 

Thank you for giving such a clear and patient answer. You have stated many things I have never thought of and will need to pray over. Also, I didn't mean to assign all this think to you, it is something I struggle with and this seem like the thread to ask. I will pray over your responses, again thank you.