Did Paul have a choice to live or die?

[kwikphilly]

Blessings

   

 

Paul chooses the outcome that will win the most people to Christ.  If by His life or his death the Gospel is advanced, then he is resigned to "choose" that outcome in the sense that he has chosen to resign himself to God's sovereign will in the matter.                                                                                                   posted by Shiloh

 Excellent explanation by Shiloh,or rather "through Shiloh"......all the Glory to God!!!!

 

I don't think he was able to just make a choice to go on to heaven any day and time he desired to.                                                                                                 posted by Butero

Absolutely not...............only Jesus could release His Spirit at will,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Praise the Lord!!!!                      With love-in Christ,Kwik

[disciplehelovestoo]

Psa 91:14-16 KJV

(14)  Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name.

(15)  He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.

(16)  With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation.

 

so the question is: who decides when such a person is satisfied - God, or the person?

[By Faith]

I do not see where these passages have anything to do with Paul having a choice to live or to die.

 

 

Philippians 1: 21 "To live or to die" means that we imitate the example of Christ and we pursue the knowledge of Christ.It also means that we are willing to give up anything that presents us from having Christ.It means that Christ is our focus,our God.

 

Philippians 1:23 means that the souls of believers are at death,absent from the body and present from the Lord,where they wait their resurrection.

 

Philippians 1:24 means "for your sake" in order to be of service to God I am willing to remain on this Earth.

I'm referring to the "yet what I shall choose I cannot tell." in vs.22

Simple answer. Yes.

We are all apointed to Die ONE TIME, then Judgement. There is a time to live and a time to die. I can only grab one scripture becuase tablet refreshes page if I get out of browser.

Heb 11 says some refused to be delivered, to obtain a better ressurection. How it's better?Never tried it, so just know it's better.

Paul said God is faithful to deliver us from Evil and wicked men. So, it's not like anyone could kill us as that is WORD. Not all have faith though as Paul stated.

2Ti 4:6 kjva For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.

Paul said I am now ready.......................... It's pretty clear he was going to turn himself in somewhere and doing so would end his life. When Paul was ready, his choice.

Paul talked a lot about running the race set before us, The devil is not big enough to stop any plan of God if we fight the good fight of faith and stay out of fear and unbelief. It takes faith to do the will and plan of God.

We need to walk by faith, and learn from Paul that no matter how many stones they pick up, Jesus said nothing by any means can harm us. (Not that stones don't hurt) but nothing can stop us from running our race, but US.

[gdemoss]

My veiws concerning these matters are still forthcoming.  I once lived selfishly seeking to build my kingdom here upon the earth and I was in constant fear of losing everything.  Then I began to let go of my little plans and designs and seek the kingdom of heaven and his righteousness.  More and more things became apparent to me.  I heard Jesus say that no one could take his life from him but rather he would lay it down.  Then I watched as he sealed his fate in the garden when he prayed to save his own life 3 times.  After that no one could save him.  Before that no one could kill him.  They tried but failed.  

In the OT we were taught about men who fought and could not be killed until sin was in there midst.  We were shown the example of Job who Satan was told that he could not kill him.  Even David killed a bear and lion with his bare hands.  Sampson 1000 men with the jawbone of an ass.  We saw how the LORD kept David alive from all his enemies including Saul.

Is it possible that Paul knew enough to know that he had a choice in how and when he might offer himself up unto God?  I believe so.  Studying this subject has helped me to grow stronger in the faith and walk with confidence in questionable situations.  Do we really believe God saved Hannaniah, Azariah and Micha'el?  Do we really believe he saved Daniel?  Everyday I believe more than the day before.  God has delievered me from my enemies more than once.  I try to remember one thing and that is do not twmpt the Lord thy God!

Peace and blessings.

 

[disciplehelovestoo]

Psa 91:14-16 KJV

(14)  Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name.

(15)  He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.

(16)  With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation.

 

so the question is: who decides when such a person is satisfied - God, or the person?

Yahweh knew 7000 years ago before He created the heavens and the earth and all life 

at what point everyone or anyone would be satisfied or not.

Yahweh does whatever He pleases, and Yahweh may at any time do something for a person, or against him, but that person's will and choice to accept the truth or not, to be satisfied or not, is still that person's free will.

 

As for the other meaning --- 'satisfied' > "sufficient' quality and quantity to meet the actual need or needs, 

Yahweh provided GENEROUSLY and FREELY everything needed, always, forever, for this life and for eternal life, in Yeshua HaMashiach, 

according to HIS WORD.

we seem to agree - but - God has limited what He will do by His word in which He delegated unrestricted authority (dominion) over the earth to people in flesh bodies (Gen 1:26; Psalms 115:16).   it is through yielding this authority back to Him by striving to be led by Him that people who are reborn in Christ avoid premature destruction in this life (Pro 22:3; Luke 13:1-5) - so it is us who decide when we are satisfied with this life; if we don't direct the steps of our own paths, but strive to yield to His leading instead.  

[disciplehelovestoo]

My veiws concerning these matters are still forthcoming.  I once lived selfishly seeking to build my kingdom here upon the earth and I was in constant fear of losing everything.  Then I began to let go of my little plans and designs and seek the kingdom of heaven and his righteousness.  More and more things became apparent to me.  I heard Jesus say that no one could take his life from him but rather he would lay it down.  Then I watched as he sealed his fate in the garden when he prayed to save his own life 3 times.  After that no one could save him.  Before that no one could kill him.  They tried but failed.  

In the OT we were taught about men who fought and could not be killed until sin was in there midst.  We were shown the example of Job who Satan was told that he could not kill him.  Even David killed a bear and lion with his bare hands.  Sampson 1000 men with the jawbone of an ass.  We saw how the LORD kept David alive from all his enemies including Saul.

Is it possible that Paul knew enough to know that he had a choice in how and when he might offer himself up unto God?  I believe so.  Studying this subject has helped me to grow stronger in the faith and walk with confidence in questionable situations.  Do we really believe God saved Hannaniah, Azariah and Micha'el?  Do we really believe he saved Daniel?  Everyday I believe more than the day before.  God has delievered me from my enemies more than once.  I try to remember one thing and that is do not twmpt the Lord thy God!

Peace and blessings.

 

Jesus did pray that "this cup" be taken away from Him, but what exactly "this cup" was is not clearly defined in scripture, at least to my limited knowledge of scripture.  tradition says that Jesus wanted to be delivered from the cross; but that doesn't make sense to me at all; if He had wavered on this most important part of His ministry, he would have been in unbelief about God's plan for the redemption of man, and therefore in the sin of unbelief, and no longer fit to be the sacrifice for all transgressions of the law for all time.  personally, i believe what Jesus was asking to be delivered from was having to watch the people He died for reject Him as He hung on the cross; i think He wanted to be delivered from watching them choose eternal death as He gave His mortal life for them.  

Clarke's commentary on Mat 27:46 and Psalms 22:1 proposes that the correct translation of Psalms 22:1 is along the lines of  “How astonishing is the wickedness of those persons into whose hands I am fallen!”; thus indicating that Jesus' focus while on the cross (and therefore in the garden when He prayed) was the same as during His ministry - on others rather than Himself.

God's sacrifice as Jesus stands alone in my mind; there is no requirement for anyone else to give their life in addition to Jesus - so i think Paul may have simply missed God's leading about having to go to Rome to die for the gospel's sake; and we don't know from scripture how Paul did die - we only have tradition to suggest that he was martyred...

ok now; drop those rocks!!!

[gdemoss]

My veiws concerning these matters are still forthcoming.  I once lived selfishly seeking to build my kingdom here upon the earth and I was in constant fear of losing everything.  Then I began to let go of my little plans and designs and seek the kingdom of heaven and his righteousness.  More and more things became apparent to me.  I heard Jesus say that no one could take his life from him but rather he would lay it down.  Then I watched as he sealed his fate in the garden when he prayed to save his own life 3 times.  After that no one could save him.  Before that no one could kill him.  They tried but failed.  

In the OT we were taught about men who fought and could not be killed until sin was in there midst.  We were shown the example of Job who Satan was told that he could not kill him.  Even David killed a bear and lion with his bare hands.  Sampson 1000 men with the jawbone of an ass.  We saw how the LORD kept David alive from all his enemies including Saul.

Is it possible that Paul knew enough to know that he had a choice in how and when he might offer himself up unto God?  I believe so.  Studying this subject has helped me to grow stronger in the faith and walk with confidence in questionable situations.  Do we really believe God saved Hannaniah, Azariah and Micha'el?  Do we really believe he saved Daniel?  Everyday I believe more than the day before.  God has delievered me from my enemies more than once.  I try to remember one thing and that is do not twmpt the Lord thy God!

Peace and blessings.

 

Jesus did pray that "this cup" be taken away from Him, but what exactly "this cup" was is not clearly defined in scripture, at least to my limited knowledge of scripture.  tradition says that Jesus wanted to be delivered from the cross; but that doesn't make sense to me at all; if He had wavered on this most important part of His ministry, he would have been in unbelief about God's plan for the redemption of man, and therefore in the sin of unbelief, and no longer fit to be the sacrifice for all transgressions of the law for all time.  personally, i believe what Jesus was asking to be delivered from was having to watch the people He died for reject Him as He hung on the cross; i think He wanted to be delivered from watching them choose eternal death as He gave His mortal life for them.  

Clarke's commentary on Mat 27:46 and Psalms 22:1 proposes that the correct translation of Psalms 22:1 is along the lines of  “How astonishing is the wickedness of those persons into whose hands I am fallen!”; thus indicating that Jesus' focus while on the cross (and therefore in the garden when He prayed) was the same as during His ministry - on others rather than Himself.

God's sacrifice as Jesus stands alone in my mind; there is no requirement for anyone else to give their life in addition to Jesus - so i think Paul may have simply missed God's leading about having to go to Rome to die for the gospel's sake; and we don't know from scripture how Paul did die - we only have tradition to suggest that he was martyred...

ok now; drop those rocks!!!

No rocks here friend.  As Peter admonished us, there are many things hard to be understood and if we are not careful we may ignorantly twist them to our own destruction.  I have been wrong before but today stand persuaded that Jesus prayer in the garden sealed his fate yet was not sin because he did what he did for us rather than himself.  

I have found this true in my own life.  I have sought to save myself in a great many situations and was delivered up instead.  I could never figure out why until much later.  Today I have learned to sacrifice myself for the sake of others and watch as God delivers me.  I had to surrender to win.  I am still learning.  I still find error in my thinking.  I am not completely finished.  The potter is still molding me.  Thank you for sharong your thoughts on the topic with me. Peace!

[disciplehelovestoo]

thank you for your mercy and grace!  give me a little more mercy and grace as i explain further

the bible gives two definitions of 'sin', which are really one in my mind:

Rom 14:22-23 KJV
(22)  Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
(23)  And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

now we know that faith is believing God; so:

whatsoever is not of believing God <faith> is sin

1Jn 3:4 KJV
(4)  Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

while Jesus did go to the cross and therefore did not transgress the law (the word of God that He would go to the cross); if he had doubted in the garden, it would have still been sin.  indeed, sin originates in the heart; the sinful action is the birth of the conception of sin, which is unbelief; so unbelief is at the core of every transgression of the law.  in the example of adultery, Jesus said that to think lustfully about a woman who isn't your wife is the same as the act of adultery; so if Jesus had considered His own life to the point where He asked God to change His plan for redemption and deliver Him from the cross, He would have been in disagreement with God about that plan of redemption, and therefore already in sin - so He couldn't have doubted God's wisdom in this way...

 

 

 

 

[Openly Curious]

It seems to be varying points of view on the scripture in the OP.  It seems that if Paul was in prison at the time of this writing of scripture, then Paul would have known his death was near and he accepted his fate.  There were some in the thread that seemed to think Paul was addressing his own freewill to lay down his life willingly just as Jesus did on the cross for mankind.  I personally had a struggle with this very scripture about 9 years ago and I've often pondered it since that time.   But being that Paul was in prison at the time he did not have the option to get up and just run away from his jail cell unless of course, God came and miracuously opened the doors and delivered him from jail.   Unless that happened Paul didn't have a choice to choose life over death all he could do is accept his fate whether he lived or died it was still the will of God either way.

Edited September 20, 2015 by Openly Curious

[thereselittleflower]

Philippians 1:21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. 24 Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you.

Just wondering, was Paul saying that it was his choice whether he lived or died?

*Edit* 
Why did Paul say "What I shall Choose I cannot tell" in vs 22.

I think he did.