Where is Joseph and His Land in the End Times?

[Salty]

 

 

Salty said, The full Godhead does not return to this earth at Christ's 2nd coming. Only The Son does, when coming to gather His Church along with the asleep saints He brings with Him according to Apostle Paul in 1 Thess.4. Nothing there about Jesus coming half-way to earth to gather His saints on earth and then pop back up into Heaven again to wait out the tribulation. His coming will end the "great tribulation" He foretold us of, and that at an instant per God's prophets. Isaiah 25 reveals all on earth will be changed, which is where Apostle Paul was pulling from with the death swallowed up idea in 1 Corinthians 15. This is why Jesus showed on the day of His coming the wicked dead are raised to their "resurrection of damnation" also, per John 5:28-29.

Part of our difference is that I quote the verses that show what I believe, but you just quote numbers of verses, and say what you believe they say.

 

Salty:  So far, you show you only quote Scripture that you think convenient to support doctrines of men like the Pre-trib secret Rapture theory. Obvious Scripture that counters that doctrine pre-trib believers throw away. I quote Scripture and give detail according to the context of the Bible chapter it's found in, along with crossreferences where God gave us more Scripture wtinesses of a matter.

 

 

Take 1 Thes. 4:

 

4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

Nothing here about Christ's return to the earth all the way; quite the contrary, we are taken up into the air. Regarding your words, "then pop back up into Heaven again to wait out the tribulation. His coming will end the "great tribulation" -- the Great Tribulation has already ended at this time, as I have shown earlier. Please don't misrepresent what I've written.

 

Salty:  There's the case I was talking about, because Acts 1 and Zechariah 14 shows Christ's coming to set foot upon the Mount of Olives where He ascended from. So do the Psalms and our Lord's Revelation show His reign on earth, where Rev.5 says His elect shall literally reign "on the earth", pointing to His coming and gathering of His Church from both Heaven and the earth, in order to go to Jerusalem on earth.

 

Nor do I have a clue about your false witness that I have misrepresented what you've written. Sounds like you just now made that up.

 

 

Re: the wicked dead being raised, as well as the righteous, Dan. 12:2 tells us that "many...shall awake," not all.

 

Did you forget John 5:28-29 where Jesus showed at the hour of His coming ALL... in the graves shall come forth, each to one of two types of resurrection, for those who have done good to the "resurrection of life", and for those who did evil the "resurrection of damnation"? That is about the raising of the dead per the 1 Thess.4 and 1 Cor.15 Scripture.

 

What I suspect you will do with that John 5:28-29 Scripture is just discard it, it's in the way of the pre-trib theory from men.

 

 

 

Is. 65:20 says, "For the child shall die one hundred years old," which shows there will still be death on earth.

 

Salty:  and that is a metaphor, because in the resurrection the ONLY... kind of death remaining is the "second death" of Rev.20 of being cast into the "lake of fire" after the end of Christ's future "thousand years" reign.

 

 

 

Likewise, Rev. 20:13 tells us that at the end of the Millennium,

 

The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

 

-- which shows again that there will be physical death during the Millennium.

 

Salty:  per the Luke 16 example Jesus gave us about Lazarus and the rich man, both died with their flesh buried, but their spirit was taken to either side of the great gulf fixed in Paradise. The rich man was in torments in hell, which is what that Hades represents. So if that's what happens after death in the flesh, then how are those still in flesh bodies not having died?? Afterall, even the Pre-trib theorists believe those are only resurrected right after Christ's "thoiusand years" reign?

 

The phrase "the dead" is being used as a symbolic label in Rev.20 for those souls still subject to the "second death" in that time of Christ's Millennial reign and after it when those who rejected The Father and The Son will go into that "lake of fire" of Rev.20. Even today, those who reject Christ Jesus have a spirit/soul inside their flesh bodies that is considered "dead" (Luke 9:60). Yet Jesus in John 5:28-29 still showed us that the wicked that have died during this world are resurrected on the day of His coming also, further proving that how "the dead" label is used in Rev.20 is a spiritual meaning involving the condition of one's spirit with soul, not one's flesh body.

 

 

 

You say, "Paul's being caught up into the air actually implies the change to the spiritual body at an instant, the Heavenly revealed to all on earth." But when Jesus was caught up on the Mount of Olives, he was concealed from all on earth.  The same will be the case at the Rapture of the elect/chosen; for not all will be changed, only some, the "elect/chosen." Matt. 24:31  The Scriptures clearly say that most men will mourn and hide from the Lord at this time, not cease to exist, and certainly not "cast off their flesh."

 

Salty:  actually per the Acts 1 description, His Apostles standing there on the Mount of Olives with Him saw Him ascend up into Heaven on a cloud. And then two angels appeared to them telling them Jesus will return in like manner how He ascended. Per Rev.1, every eye shall see Him coming in the clouds, even those who pierced Him.

 

What the majority of the Pre-Trib Rapture school thinks comes from lack of Bible study in all of it, missing the descriptions of the end per God's OT prophets, and failing to understand New Testament prophecy in conjunction with the Old Testament prophecies about the same subject. God's House for the Millennium is show on earth per Ezekiel 40 through 47. And the last verse of Ezekiel 48 shows the holy city on earth with a new name that means "The LORD is there".

 

 

In your first paragraph, you are conflating the coming of Christ in the clouds to take up his Church -- to keep them out of "the day of his wrath," Rev. 6:16 -- with his return to earth to fight the Battles of Armageddon and Jerusalem, which conclude the Day of Wrath. This is where you and so many misunderstand the sequence of events of the End Times.

 

I'm am declaring... God's Word on the matter, not conflating it as you say. You're only pulling ideas out of the Scripture that you want in order to try and support the Pre-trib idea from men. What I do is keep Scripture within its context of the chapter, along with the whole Word of God.

 

In Rev.6:16, there is NO mention of a Pre-trib secret Rapture, nor even of HOW... our Lord Jesus returns to gather His Church. I guess you've simply assumed that info is given there when it is not. What is given there, is about the events of God's cup of wrath poured out upon the wicked on earth on the Day of The Lord, an event which Christ's Apostles well marked in relation to the timing our Lord Jesus' return, which is given specifically in Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, 2 Thess.2, and 1 Thess.5 with the "as a thief" metaphor aligned with 2 Pet.3:10 and what our Lord Jesus said in Rev.16:15 to His Church on earth within the 6th vial timing.

 

The Pre-trib school gets a lot of its believers so confused about that idea of "wrath" from what Apostle Paul said in 1 Thess.5, that some of them even think the "great tribulation" Jesus warned of is what that "wrath" is about! It is not. God's cup of wrath is poured out upon the wicked on the Day of The Lord per Paul in 1 Thess.5, and Paul even went into part of that detail from the OT prophets with the idea of the deceived saying, "Peace and safety" and then "sudden destruction" comes upon them. Our example of our Lord Jesus preserving us through that and gathering us is with the Daniel 3 example of the hot fiery furnace, heated seven times hotter than necessary. God's consuming fire won't touch a hair on our head. He can... be that accurate with His judgments upon the wicked while preserving His own on earth without removing them off the earth. Bible history shows He did that preserving of His in the midst of His judgments upon the wicked several times already.

 

 

God's judgment will take place in 4 stages:

1) the Lord will judge and cast down the rebellious heavenly elohim;

2) he will then remove the elect only of his Church from earth at the 6th Seal (which concludes the Great Tribulation of the first 5 Seals) to keep them from his Day of Wrath;

3) he will then judge and separate the righteous from the unrighteous of the remnant of Jacob on earth, during the period of the Trumpets --

 

Salty:  by the time of the 6th Seal events have occurred, this present world will be over. The 6th seal events align with the events of the 7th trumpet and 7th vial, Day of The Lord timing. Might want to find a better Scripture example to insert your pre-trib secret rapture theory from men. Didn't you know that historically, the Pre-trib Rapture school has taught that Christ raptures His Church off the earth prior to Revelation 6??? Might want to look at history of what that doctrine has taught, and how they continually keep changing it. So right from the start of that, you've gone off on a completely wrong Scripture basis.

Ezek. 20:33 [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you: 34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out. 35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face. 36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD. 37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant: 38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me...

 

Yes, Christ is going to do that very thing, starting at His second coming and Millennial reign with His elect on earth. That's even what the separation of His sheep from the goats in Matthew 25 is about. It happens on the earth when He comes to inherit the throne of His father David, which also is an earthly throne.

 

Moreover, that Ezekiel Scripture God gave those prophecies especially to was the "house of Israel" through His prophet Ezekiel (Ezek.3). Ezekiel 37 has more info about that with the joining of the ten lost tribes of Israel (stick of Joseph) back again with the "house of Judah", in the holy lands on earth, and it will include all... believing Gentiles on Christ Jesus in that holy city of Ezekiel 40-48 which aligns with Revelation 21-22.

 

 

 

 

[WilliamL]

 

 

 

 

Take 1 Thes. 4:

 

4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

Nothing here about Christ's return to the earth all the way; quite the contrary, we are taken up into the air. Regarding your words, "then pop back up into Heaven again to wait out the tribulation. His coming will end the "great tribulation" -- the Great Tribulation has already ended at this time, as I have shown earlier. Please don't misrepresent what I've written.

 

Salty:  There's the case I was talking about, because Acts 1 and Zechariah 14 shows Christ's coming to set foot upon the Mount of Olives where He ascended from. So do the Psalms and our Lord's Revelation show His reign on earth, where Rev.5 says His elect shall literally reign "on the earth", pointing to His coming and gathering of His Church from both Heaven and the earth, in order to go to Jerusalem on earth.

 

William: As I've stated before, Christ does return to the Mt. of Olives at the end of the Day of the Lord's Wrath. Agreed. What you fail to understand is that just before the beginning of the Day of Wrath -- "the great day of his wrath came," Rev. Rev. 6:16 -- he comes to take up the elect of his Church, his Bride. "For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation..." 1 Thes. 5:9 Church removed, wrath takes place, Church then returns to rule after the period of wrath..

 

 

Re: the wicked dead being raised, as well as the righteous, Dan. 12:2 tells us that "many...shall awake," not all.

 

Did you forget John 5:28-29 where Jesus showed at the hour of His coming ALL... in the graves shall come forth, each to one of two types of resurrection, for those who have done good to the "resurrection of life", and for those who did evil the "resurrection of damnation"? That is about the raising of the dead per the 1 Thess.4 and 1 Cor.15 Scripture.

 

William: Does Scripture contradict Scripture? Daniel 12:2 is specific about the time of a partial resurrection. John 5:28-29 does not provide a time. I take the latter to be referring to the final resurrection at the end of the Millennium, when all in the graves will come forth. Therefore, both passages are able to be true without contradicting each other.

An alternate possibility for the latter passage is that Jesus is saying that all of the dead shall eventually be resurrected and judged, i.e., that death will not be the end of existence, as the Sadduccees believed. Note John 5:25: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live." This was speaking of the resurrection of the dead which took place after his own resurrection.There is to be multiple resurrections -- take that of the Two Witnesses, for example -- but in the final end, all will come forth from the dead.

 

Likewise, Rev. 20:13 tells us that at the end of the Millennium,

 

The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

 

-- which shows again that there will be physical death during the Millennium.

 

The phrase "the dead" is being used as a symbolic label in Rev.20 for those souls still subject to the "second death" in that time of Christ's Millennial reign and after it when those who rejected The Father and The Son will go into that "lake of fire" of Rev.20. Even today, those who reject Christ Jesus have a spirit/soul inside their flesh bodies that is considered "dead" (Luke 9:60). Yet Jesus in John 5:28-29 still showed us that the wicked that have died during this world are resurrected on the day of His coming also, further proving that how "the dead" label is used in Rev.20 is a spiritual meaning involving the condition of one's spirit with soul, not one's flesh body.

 

William: The phrase "the dead" means the same thing it means elsewhere; nothing symbolic about it. In order to support your theory, you have to impose a different meaning on it, without any contextual support. Take Rev. 20:4-5: "I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus...and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished." The dead means the dead.

 

 

 

You're only pulling ideas out of the Scripture that you want in order to try and support the Pre-trib idea from men. What I do is keep Scripture within its context of the chapter, along with the whole Word of God.

 

In Rev.6:16, there is NO mention of a Pre-trib secret Rapture...

 

The Pre-trib school gets a lot of its believers so confused ...

 

William: There you go again bearing false witness against what I've been showing. Apparently, you have never studied much about Pre-wrath, which is considerably different from and opposed to Pre-trib. Pre-wrath says that the Rapture takes place at the 6th Seal, after the Great Tribulation ends, and the heavenly and earthly cataclysms take place. The Church then appears in heaven before the throne in Rev. 7, before the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls ever commence.

 

Ezek. 20:33 [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you: 34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out. 35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face. 36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD. 37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant: 38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me...

 

Yes, Christ is going to do that very thing, starting at His second coming and Millennial reign with His elect on earth. That's even what the separation of His sheep from the goats in Matthew 25 is about. It happens on the earth when He comes to inherit the throne of His father David, which also is an earthly throne.

 

William: No, the Matt. 25 passages speaks about "all the nations" gathered as sheep and goats, vs. 32. The Ezekiel 20 passage is only speaking about Israelites.

 

[Salty]

 

 

 

 

 

Take 1 Thes. 4:

 

4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

Nothing here about Christ's return to the earth all the way; quite the contrary, we are taken up into the air. Regarding your words, "then pop back up into Heaven again to wait out the tribulation. His coming will end the "great tribulation" -- the Great Tribulation has already ended at this time, as I have shown earlier. Please don't misrepresent what I've written.

 

Salty:  There's the case I was talking about, because Acts 1 and Zechariah 14 shows Christ's coming to set foot upon the Mount of Olives where He ascended from. So do the Psalms and our Lord's Revelation show His reign on earth, where Rev.5 says His elect shall literally reign "on the earth", pointing to His coming and gathering of His Church from both Heaven and the earth, in order to go to Jerusalem on earth.

 

William: As I've stated before, Christ does return to the Mt. of Olives at the end of the Day of the Lord's Wrath. Agreed. What you fail to understand is that just before the beginning of the Day of Wrath -- "the great day of his wrath came," Rev. Rev. 6:16 -- he comes to take up the elect of his Church, his Bride. "For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation..." 1 Thes. 5:9 Church removed, wrath takes place, Church then returns to rule after the period of wrath..

 

Salty 2:  The Day of The Lord events is when... Jesus comes to gather His Church, which means we are still on earth all the way up to that point when He pours out His wrath upon the nations. Have Faith, His wrath like you quoted from Paul is not appointed upon us His Church. But that doesn't mean we can insert an idea like we're taken to Heaven away from the earth and then He brings us back later, for that idea is man's, not God's in His Word. Daniel 3 and the hot fiery furnace is our protection example, as also how God protected the children of Israel in Egypt, for Christ now is our Passover sacrificed for us like Paul said.

 

 

Re: the wicked dead being raised, as well as the righteous, Dan. 12:2 tells us that "many...shall awake," not all.

 

Did you forget John 5:28-29 where Jesus showed at the hour of His coming ALL... in the graves shall come forth, each to one of two types of resurrection, for those who have done good to the "resurrection of life", and for those who did evil the "resurrection of damnation"? That is about the raising of the dead per the 1 Thess.4 and 1 Cor.15 Scripture.

 

William: Does Scripture contradict Scripture? Daniel 12:2 is specific about the time of a partial resurrection. John 5:28-29 does not provide a time. I take the latter to be referring to the final resurrection at the end of the Millennium, when all in the graves will come forth. Therefore, both passages are able to be true without contradicting each other.

An alternate possibility for the latter passage is that Jesus is saying that all of the dead shall eventually be resurrected and judged, i.e., that death will not be the end of existence, as the Sadduccees believed. Note John 5:25: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live." This was speaking of the resurrection of the dead which took place after his own resurrection.There is to be multiple resurrections -- take that of the Two Witnesses, for example -- but in the final end, all will come forth from the dead.

 

Salty 2:  there's no contradiction between that Dan.12 example and what Paul taught, but there is a contradiction with how you've interpreted it.

 

Dan.12

² And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

That idea of "many" does not prove your idea. You're just not reading that and thinking. If there were no resurrection of the wicked also on that day of Christ gathering His Church, then why was Daniel given there to say "some to shame and everlasting contempt"? You fail to realize that Scripture perfectly aligns with what our Lord Jesus in John 5:28-29 about both resurrection 'types' happenning on the day of His return.

 

Likewise, Rev. 20:13 tells us that at the end of the Millennium,

 

The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

 

-- which shows again that there will be physical death during the Millennium.

 

Salty 2:  no, it only shows that the dead will stand in judgment at the end of Christ's thousand years reign, to see if any of their names are found in the Book of Life. The "second death" then is their reward for any of them that reject Christ Jesus. That "second death" of course is not a death of their flesh, for they already died once, or didn't you get that?

 

 

The phrase "the dead" is being used as a symbolic label in Rev.20 for those souls still subject to the "second death" in that time of Christ's Millennial reign and after it when those who rejected The Father and The Son will go into that "lake of fire" of Rev.20. Even today, those who reject Christ Jesus have a spirit/soul inside their flesh bodies that is considered "dead" (Luke 9:60). Yet Jesus in John 5:28-29 still showed us that the wicked that have died during this world are resurrected on the day of His coming also, further proving that how "the dead" label is used in Rev.20 is a spiritual meaning involving the condition of one's spirit with soul, not one's flesh body.

 

William: The phrase "the dead" means the same thing it means elsewhere; nothing symbolic about it. In order to support your theory, you have to impose a different meaning on it, without any contextual support. Take Rev. 20:4-5: "I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus...and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished." The dead means the dead.

 

Salty 2:  per God's Word "dead" has more than one meaning, "let the dead bury the dead"? For Christ's future Millennial reign, the "second death" is the only remaining, and only one mentioned in Rev.20.

 

 

 

You're only pulling ideas out of the Scripture that you want in order to try and support the Pre-trib idea from men. What I do is keep Scripture within its context of the chapter, along with the whole Word of God.

 

In Rev.6:16, there is NO mention of a Pre-trib secret Rapture...

 

The Pre-trib school gets a lot of its believers so confused ...

 

William: There you go again bearing false witness against what I've been showing. Apparently, you have never studied much about Pre-wrath, which is considerably different from and opposed to Pre-trib. Pre-wrath says that the Rapture takes place at the 6th Seal, after the Great Tribulation ends, and the heavenly and earthly cataclysms take place. The Church then appears in heaven before the throne in Rev. 7, before the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls ever commence.

 

Salty 2: I could care less about pre-trib, pre-wrath, etc., nothing but doctrines of men, tethers. Just because I don't agree with those doctrines doesn't mean I'm not familiar with them. Christ's Church on earth is not with Him until the day of His coming, which is the Day of The Lord per the OT prophets and His Apostles. God's Word often gives a prophecy in a 'future prophetic' sense, like with some things in the Rev.4 & 5 chapters and the crowns. Things is, those crowns are about Christ's rewards for His faithful Church, and they don't get handed out until His return. But anyone can remove a single Scripture from the chapters context, and get it totally away from the whole Bible context altogether, which is what both pre-trib and pre-wrath does, along with quite a few other doctrines of men that are not written in God's Word.

 

 

Ezek. 20:33 [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you: 34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out. 35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face. 36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD. 37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant: 38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me...

 

Yes, Christ is going to do that very thing, starting at His second coming and Millennial reign with His elect on earth. That's even what the separation of His sheep from the goats in Matthew 25 is about. It happens on the earth when He comes to inherit the throne of His father David, which also is an earthly throne.

 

William: No, the Matt. 25 passages speaks about "all the nations" gathered as sheep and goats, vs. 32. The Ezekiel 20 passage is only speaking about Israelites.

 

 

Salty 2: then beleiving Gentiles really are not part of Christ's many-membered Body like Paul said there was no difference between Jew or Gentile? I can't wait until you see Apostle Paul correct you on that! In Rev.20 the ONLY peoples outside the "camp of the saints" are the unbelieving and rebellious of BOTH the rejecters of Christ from the seed of Israel and of the Gentiles. Inside is Christ's Body, outside are the rebellious of all peoples, of both Israelites and the nations alike.

 

 

 

[Cyrus]

.

In the OT, God was married to Israel.

Then Israel had a civil war and split into two kingdoms.

Because of unfaithfulness, God divorced the Northern Kingdom

[sometimes called the 10 lost tribes] and used Assyria to destroy

the Northern Kingdom and remove those Israelites from the

Holy Land. Interestingly, the OT says Assyria resettled Israelites

into the "cities of the Medes." Connected to those Medes

was a lesser people which appeared in history around this

same time... the Persians. The Persians were also divided into

10 to 12 tribes [10 or 12 depending upon which ancient Greek

historian is telling the history.] These Persians also believed in

one invisible god who had no idol, a form of baptism and the

resurrection of the dead. This puts a whole new spin on why

God called the Persian king, Cyrus, His anointed [an honor

usually reserved for Israelite kings and priests.]

Later, God punished the Southern Kingdom [Judah] via Babylon.

God punished Judah, but did not divorce Judah. After 70 years

of Babylonian rule, God's anointed king, Cyrus, conquered

Babylon, liberated the Israelites and decreed a portion of Israel

return to Jerusalem and rebuild the temple. Jesus was born

from this small portion of Israel that returned to the Holy Land.

The vast majority of Israelites had been in the Europe/ Asia

diaspora for centuries and had become as gentiles. They were

the wild olive branches that were joined with the olive tree via

Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ said He was sent only to the lost

sheep of Israel. Jesus said His sheep hear Him and follow Him.

And so they did. James 1:1 greets all 12 tribes of Israel in the

diaspora in the name of Jesus Christ.

.

[WilliamL]

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect...

 

Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

 

This is the destination of those "caught up" with Jesus when he returns in the clouds of heaven. This is where the ones will be who come "out of the Great Tribulation...[to stand] before the throne of God, [to] serve him day and night in his temple." Rev. 7:14-15   That throne is "in heaven," 4:1-2.

 

These things take place right after the heavenly and earthly cataclysms of the 6th Seal, which events Jesus said in Matt. 24:24 immediately precede his coming in the clouds to gather his elect. These things take place before the 7th Seal is ever opened, before the 7 Trumpets are blown, before the 7 Bowls are poured out.

 

And that sums up the essence of the time and events of the Rapture of the elect of Christ's Church, his Bride.
 

[Salty]

.

In the OT, God was married to Israel.

Then Israel had a civil war and split into two kingdoms.

Because of unfaithfulness, God divorced the Northern Kingdom

[sometimes called the 10 lost tribes] and used Assyria to destroy

the Northern Kingdom and remove those Israelites from the

Holy Land. Interestingly, the OT says Assyria resettled Israelites

into the "cities of the Medes." Connected to those Medes

was a lesser people which appeared in history around this

same time... the Persians. The Persians were also divided into

10 to 12 tribes [10 or 12 depending upon which ancient Greek

historian is telling the history.] These Persians also believed in

one invisible god who had no idol, a form of baptism and the

resurrection of the dead. This puts a whole new spin on why

God called the Persian king, Cyrus, His anointed [an honor

usually reserved for Israelite kings and priests.]

Later, God punished the Southern Kingdom [Judah] via Babylon.

God punished Judah, but did not divorce Judah. After 70 years

of Babylonian rule, God's anointed king, Cyrus, conquered

Babylon, liberated the Israelites and decreed a portion of Israel

return to Jerusalem and rebuild the temple. Jesus was born

from this small portion of Israel that returned to the Holy Land.

The vast majority of Israelites had been in the Europe/ Asia

diaspora for centuries and had become as gentiles. They were

the wild olive branches that were joined with the olive tree via

Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ said He was sent only to the lost

sheep of Israel. Jesus said His sheep hear Him and follow Him.

And so they did. James 1:1 greets all 12 tribes of Israel in the

diaspora in the name of Jesus Christ.

.

 

Indeed, indeed! That is why it is impossible to separate God's Israel apart from Christ's Church, because God's Word shows the majority of scattered Israelites of those ten tribes would believe The Gospel, and become "a multitude of nations" (Gen.48). This matter everyone... will learn about in Christ's Millennial reign.

[Salty]

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect...

 

Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

 

This is the destination of those "caught up" with Jesus when he returns in the clouds of heaven. This is where the ones will be who come "out of the Great Tribulation...[to stand] before the throne of God, [to] serve him day and night in his temple." Rev. 7:14-15   That throne is "in heaven," 4:1-2.

 

These things take place right after the heavenly and earthly cataclysms of the 6th Seal, which events Jesus said in Matt. 24:24 immediately precede his coming in the clouds to gather his elect. These things take place before the 7th Seal is ever opened, before the 7 Trumpets are blown, before the 7 Bowls are poured out.

 

And that sums up the essence of the time and events of the Rapture of the elect of Christ's Church, his Bride.

 

 

Hardly. That description of the heavenly Jerusalem is about this present world time, not the world to come. Not Biblically proper to place the things and events of this world into the future world to come. Ezekiel 40 forward reveals God's House upon the earth where earthly Jerusalem is today after Christ's coming, that is the "house" our Lord Jesus was referring to in John 14 about the "many mansions" idea. The fact that even the KJV translators chose the word "mansions" for the Greek word which simply mean 'abodes', shows how they no doubt were also subject to myths of living up on a cloud in outer space that some brethren have because of being unlearned in God's Word.

[Cyrus]

.

In the OT, God was married to Israel.

Then Israel had a civil war and split into two kingdoms.

Because of unfaithfulness, God divorced the Northern Kingdom

[sometimes called the 10 lost tribes] and used Assyria to destroy

the Northern Kingdom and remove those Israelites from the

Holy Land. Interestingly, the OT says Assyria resettled Israelites

into the "cities of the Medes." Connected to those Medes

was a lesser people which appeared in history around this

same time... the Persians. The Persians were also divided into

10 to 12 tribes [10 or 12 depending upon which ancient Greek

historian is telling the history.] These Persians also believed in

one invisible god who had no idol, a form of baptism and the

resurrection of the dead. This puts a whole new spin on why

God called the Persian king, Cyrus, His anointed [an honor

usually reserved for Israelite kings and priests.]

Later, God punished the Southern Kingdom [Judah] via Babylon.

God punished Judah, but did not divorce Judah. After 70 years

of Babylonian rule, God's anointed king, Cyrus, conquered

Babylon, liberated the Israelites and decreed a portion of Israel

return to Jerusalem and rebuild the temple. Jesus was born

from this small portion of Israel that returned to the Holy Land.

The vast majority of Israelites had been in the Europe/ Asia

diaspora for centuries and had become as gentiles. They were

the wild olive branches that were joined with the olive tree via

Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ said He was sent only to the lost

sheep of Israel. Jesus said His sheep hear Him and follow Him.

And so they did. James 1:1 greets all 12 tribes of Israel in the

diaspora in the name of Jesus Christ.

.

Indeed, indeed! That is why it is impossible to separate God's Israel apart from Christ's Church, because God's Word shows the majority of scattered Israelites of those ten tribes would believe The Gospel, and become "a multitude of nations" (Gen.48). This matter everyone... will learn about in Christ's Millennial reign.

As the last verses of the OT Malachi 4:5-6 tells us:

" Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming

of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children,

and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come

and smite the earth with a curse. "

Isaiah 51:1-2 teaches the importance of this family relationship.

" Listen to me, you who pursue righteousness,

you who seek the Lord:

look to the rock from which you were hewn,

and to the quarry from which you were dug.

Look to Abraham your father

and to Sarah who bore you;

for he was but one when I called him,

that I might bless him and multiply him. "

.

[WilliamL]

 

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect...

 

Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

 

This is the destination of those "caught up" with Jesus when he returns in the clouds of heaven. This is where the ones will be who come "out of the Great Tribulation...[to stand] before the throne of God, [to] serve him day and night in his temple." Rev. 7:14-15   That throne is "in heaven," 4:1-2.

 

These things take place right after the heavenly and earthly cataclysms of the 6th Seal, which events Jesus said in Matt. 24:24 immediately precede his coming in the clouds to gather his elect. These things take place before the 7th Seal is ever opened, before the 7 Trumpets are blown, before the 7 Bowls are poured out.

 

And that sums up the essence of the time and events of the Rapture of the elect of Christ's Church, his Bride.

 

 

Hardly. That description of the heavenly Jerusalem is about this present world time, not the world to come. Not Biblically proper to place the things and events of this world into the future world to come.

The New Jerusalem described in Hebrews 12 will not descend to earth until after the 1000-year (millennial) reign of Jesus on earth is completed.

 

The New Jerusalem will descend after this present heaven and earth "pass away," which takes place at the end of the Millennium:

 

Rev. 20:7, 11  Now when the 1000 years had expired...the [present] heaven and earth fled away. And there was found no place for them.

21:1-2 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

 

Therefore, during that 1000 years, any saints gathered to the New Jerusalem will be in heaven, as Paul tells us in Heb. 12:22 quoted above.