Christian perfection

[Guest shiloh357]

No one is perfect yet in this life. If you think you can live a perfect sinless life from here on, you are deceived. Something to strive for, sure. But simply striving to be perfect, I think is missing the mark.

Yes, exactly.   We follow hard after God and we live our lives devoted to Him.  If we stumble, His grace is there to forgive us and pick us up so we can keep going.

[Joshua-777]

Joshua, Torah observant Jewish people don't struggle with the flesh, at least you seem to think.  Jewish people struggle with what is known as "halacha."  They struggle with making sure that they have all the lights on timers before the Sabbath,  their big sin is something like not getting Sabbath candles lit at exactly 18 minutes before sundown.

Jewish people struggle with things like not walking more than six feet without their head covered and stuff.  What they define as "sin" and what you and I would see as "sin" are necessarily the same thing.  They are not trying to keep the law.  They striving to keep rabbinic regulations that are extra to keeping the law.

They don't believe they are fallen sinners with a sin nature or "flesh" as Paul calls it.  It is a completely different mindset that perhaps what you are familiar with.  What they struggle with is making sure they don't meat and milk within 30 minutes of each other.

So believers are under the law? The Romans 7 man is a man under the system of the law and not a man under the influence of the Spirit. I don't believe Paul switched topics to his struggle as a believer, he was making a point about how the Law couldn't stop sin.

 

 

Romans 5, death reigned through one, gift of righteousness and grace through the One/

Romans 6, we died, crucified with Christ, no longer slaves to sin,

Romans 7, Die to the law to be married to Christ, Under the law produces death, under the Spirit produces life and fruit to God. The law Paul thought to bring life brings only death. Sin in him rose up and he lacks the will to do good. Who can deliver him from this? Jesus.

Romans 8, What the law couldn't do, God did, by sending Jesus. Now we can live according to the Spirit and not according to the flesh.

 

In fact, if you don't have a sin nature, you would not sin at all; no would sin at all.  Every Christian would have no choice but walk in sinless perfection if the flesh were eradicated altogether.

 

Did Adam and Eve have a sin nature? 

They sinned so that shows that you don't need a sin nature to sin. You need free will and the ability to believe a lie. Our minds need renewed to the truth of who we are in Him.

 

You fail to see that while you are born again and born of God, your flesh (sin nature) was not eradicated.   Your old man is dead; he died at the moment you were saved.  But your flesh is not the "old man."

 

The flesh I believe is the residue of the old man, the previous way of thinking, habits, memory muscles, etc. We have a lifetime of thinking like the devil, that needs renewed.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

Joshua, Torah observant Jewish people don't struggle with the flesh, at least you seem to think.  Jewish people struggle with what is known as "halacha."  They struggle with making sure that they have all the lights on timers before the Sabbath,  their big sin is something like not getting Sabbath candles lit at exactly 18 minutes before sundown.

Jewish people struggle with things like not walking more than six feet without their head covered and stuff.  What they define as "sin" and what you and I would see as "sin" are necessarily the same thing.  They are not trying to keep the law.  They striving to keep rabbinic regulations that are extra to keeping the law.

They don't believe they are fallen sinners with a sin nature or "flesh" as Paul calls it.  It is a completely different mindset that perhaps what you are familiar with.  What they struggle with is making sure they don't meat and milk within 30 minutes of each other.

So believers are under the law? The Romans 7 man is a man under the system of the law and not a man under the influence of the Spirit. I don't believe Paul switched topics to his struggle as a believer, he was making a point about how the Law couldn't stop sin.

 No,believers are not under the law.   Paul switched topics.   You are not using proper interpretive skills on that chapter.   You can easily see the switch from the law to the flesh if you are willing to read the text without the filters of your preconceptions.

 

Did Adam and Eve have a sin nature? 

They sinned so that shows that you don't need a sin nature to sin. You need free will and the ability to believe a lie. Our minds need renewed to the truth of who we are in Him.

 

No, they  did not have a sin nature, but we have something better than what they had.   We have the Holy Spirit indwelling us.  We have more in us than they did.  We have an empowerment that has to be factored into the equation.

 

The flesh I believe is the residue of the old man, the previous way of thinking, habits, memory muscles, etc. We have a lifetime of thinking like the devil, that needs renewed.

 

No, your flesh as Paul uses refers to your sinful nature which is still present in your life.  The mind needs to be renewed because the mind is like the steering wheel on your car.   If you take your hands off of the wheel, the car (your flesh/sinful nature) will go where it wants to go.  It will veer off into the ditch or ram into another car.   You need to control the wheel.  You represent the regenerated, born again part that must maintain control of the steering wheel (mind, will and emotions).

[Joshua-777]

 

No,believers are not under the law.   Paul switched topics.   You are not using proper interpretive skills on that chapter.   You can easily see the switch from the law to the flesh if you are willing to read the text without the filters of your preconceptions.

 

 

Romans 7:What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”[a] 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

Law Cannot Save from Sin (Header note in the NKJV)

 

13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

Here's two laws at war - Commandments (Moses law) and the law of sin. If we are not under the law.

Paul cries out, who can save me from this mess? Jesus - the answer,

We're under a new law, a new commandment, a new covenant. The law of life in the Spirit. What the law, couldn't do, God did by sending His son. RIghteousness is apart from the law.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,

 

No, they  did not have a sin nature, but we have something better than what they had.   We have the Holy Spirit indwelling us.  We have more in us than they did.  We have an empowerment that has to be factored into the equation.

 

Yes and amen!

 

No, your flesh as Paul uses refers to your sinful nature which is still present in your life.  The mind needs to be renewed because the mind is like the steering wheel on your car.   If you take your hands off of the wheel, the car (your flesh/sinful nature) will go where it wants to go.  It will veer off into the ditch or ram into another car.   You need to control the wheel.  You represent the regenerated, born again part that must maintain control of the steering wheel (mind, will and emotions).

 

Our identity is completely wrapped in Christ, it's who we are. The deeds of the old man need to be put to death because that is no longer who you are. If you take your hands off the wheel, you will go to what your used to, the deeds of the flesh.

Do you believe that there is nothing in you that is good? If your born again and your spirit is alive, joined with the Holy Spirit, is that spirit good and in you?

[Mr Nice]

I tried to paste what I found on carm.org about this subject, but their format did not hold, so here is a link you can read.

 

Can a true Christian sin or not?

 

What needs to be understood is that we should always follow the lead of the Holy Spirit and obey Christ, but we are not perfect.  We will fail to some degree now and then, showing us we are not perfect.  To say we are prefect because of Christ is false humility.  We are forgiven, not perfect.

 

Once again.  Has a Christian confessed he has sinned?  Yes. Therefore he is not saying he has no sin.  These verses in 1 John 1 do not apply to one who has accepted Christ.  As many claim John wrote this book to argue against agnostics who believed that all flesh was inherently evil and that the sins of the flesh were not counted against them because they were not of the flesh.  They were truly claiming they had no sin in their entire lives therefore they had not sinned.  It is those who believe they have never sinned in their life that he is referencing.  A Christian comes to Christ because he has sinned and is seeking forgiveness of those sins.  But he is not only seeking forgiveness, he is seeking all that Christ and God promised, with the main promise being the Holy Spirit.  Christ makes us clean from our past but the Spirit keeps us clean thereafter by leading us into all that God commanded so that we will not fulfill the desires of the flesh.

 

The error is still in how you view practice.  If you sin you have practiced sin, you have continued in sin, you have repeated that which you had done in the past.  Christ says that he who commits sin is a slave to sin.  What John is referring to in 1 John 3 is that is that to be a Son of God you cannot sin, for he who sins is of the devil for he has sinned from the beginning.  How do you hold to your claim when you finish reading the chapter.  John says he who keeps His commandments abides in Him.

 

1Jn 3:24  The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 

 

Keeps is an absolute.  You are either obeying them completely or you are not keeping them because you have committed sin (singular).

 

Likewise, 1Jn 5:18  We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.   If you sin then the evil one has touched you.

 

Christ said he who does the will of the Father.  Mat 7:21  "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 

 

What is the will of the Father?  "Obey my voice."  

 

Mat 21:28-31  "But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, 'Son, go work today in the vineyard.'  (29)  "And he answered, 'I will not'; but afterward he regretted it and went.  (30)  "The man came to the second and said the same thing; and he answered, 'I will, sir'; but he did not go.  (31)  "Which of the two did the will of his father?" They *said, "The first." Jesus *said to them, "Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you.

 

They tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of heaven because they have come to Christ with regret and turned and did as they were commanded.  It is either we do or we don't. Only doing part of what He has commanded is the same if not worse then doing none of what He commanded.

 

We are commanded to abstain from every form of evil.  If one commits a sin he has not abstained. 1Th 5:19-24  Do not quench the Spirit;  (20)  do not despise prophetic utterances.  (21)  But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;  (22)  abstain from every form of evil.  (23)  Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.  (24)  Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.

 

Do you love, know and abide in God?  If you say yes but do not keep His commandments, you are a liar and the truth is not in you.  For Christ said if you love me you will keep my commandments.  John said in 1 John 2:3-6 if we keep His commandments we know Him and His love has been perfected in us, if we do not keep them then we are a liar.

 

Finally if what we do has nothing to do with our salvation, then all that we do is in vain.  However, this is not what Paul says,

 

1Co 15:56-58  The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;  (57)  but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.  (58)  Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord.

 

We are to be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing our toil is not in vain.

[Mr Nice]

 

 

 

 

 

But don't fall into the self-righteous trap of thinking you are perfectly sinless.  The ONLY person who can lay claim to that is Jesus.

^  how is that self righteous to believe god took away your sin?

There is a difference between believing that Jesus bore the penalty of our sin on the cross and believing that we are perfectly sinless.   Jesus is the only Person whoever had the ability to fully please God with works of righteousness.

 

Jesus did not take away your sin nature.   Jesus satisfied God's justice against sin.   Jesus made it possible for us sinners to be in right standing with God.    We are perfected objectively through the blood of Jesus (Heb. 10).  We stand before perfected through the work of Christ on the cross.   But we still have a struggle against our sin nature, what Paul calls "the flesh."  

 

God has only one standard perfection:  Himself.   He is the standard of perfection.  For me to claim that I am perfectly sinless means I have to meet that divine standard and that means I have to measure myself against the Lord.  None of us reach the place where we are perfectly flawless/sinless because that would put us on God's level and that takes us into heresy.

 

Jesus never takes away our flesh, that's true.  But I can't agree with the rest since I believe being sinless is mandatory for a Christian

 

From an objective standpoint, we are sinless in that the part of us that is born of God, the part of us that goes to heaven when we die, doesn't sin. 

 

There is no commandment in the Bible that makes being a Christian conditional on living a perfect, sinless life.  Our perfection is in founded in Christ, not in our own efforts.   You can't live up to God's standard of perfection.   God makes you sinless; you don't make yourself sinless through the strength of your will or your works.

 

If you think you are capable of being perfect to the same degree that God is perfect (which is the only standard of perfect the Bible states that God accepts) you are sorely mistaken. 

 

If sin remains in you then you are still a slave to sin which leads to death.  This is according to Christ.  Joh 8:12  Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, "I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life."   

 

Just because someone fails on occasion, or stumbles and commits a sin doesn't mean they are slave to sin.  It doesn't mean that they are no longer saved.

 

 

If what you claim is true then Christ lied.  John  8:34  Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. 

[Mr Nice]

 

I copied and pasted all these things said about Joshua777 By shiloh357.

The problem in this train wreck of theology is that it fails to take into account that the Bible deals with spiritual truths from an objective standpoint and a subjective standpoint.

Your view is based on a warped and unbiblical and almost cultish view that makes all of salvation hinge on being spotless and perfect in all of our words and deeds and in doing so, diminishes the perfecting work of Christ on the cross.

it really throws your wacky theology into a tailspin,

Your view of God isn't the God the Bible presents.

Your theology is warped and demonic, and full of condemnation and absent completely of grace, mercy, longsuffering, forbearance, forgiveness. It is false teaching and a doctrine of demons.

One way I can always spot false teachers, wolves in sheep's clothing, is the way they misquote and misrepresent the Scriptures to say something that isn't there.

There is so much deception in what you teach it is unbelievable.

You don't believe the Gospel.

Now Joshua shared how he comes to understand the gospel by how the Holy Spirit has worked in his life.

And this isn't the first time I've seen Shiloh357 make these horrendous accusations on anybody that don't follow the gospel the way he does.

On this site it seems that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit cannot be done....by a Christian.

I believe this is the perfect example of Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. If Joshua has the Holy Spirit and is sharing from his heart. And listening to what Joshua said in his post it sounds like the Holy Spirit is working thru him.

That means that Shiloh357 is calling the Holy Spirit warped and demonic and all those other nasty things he said about Joshua.

Matthew 12:31-32 “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

The only hope for Shiloh357 would be that Joshua doesn't have the Holy Spirit.

Actually those things were said to Mr. Nice, not to Joshua.  

 

I am not calling the Holy Spirit warped and demonic. I am calling a works-based system of righteousness warped, and demonic.  It is false teaching.  You don't know anything about the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. 

 

Your theology like Mir. Nice's is just as warped and just as fleshly and demonic.    You operate from a system that operates from the flesh and not the Holy Spirit.   The Holy Spirit is not in anything you say when you delcare that works are necessary for salvation.   I abominate your false teaching.   I stand by everything I have said about how sinful your "theology" is.

 

They claimed that Christ was casting out demons by a demon, claiming the Holy Spirit was not in Christ.  Likewise you are trying to claim that if I am eliminating sin from my life that essentially I have a demon in me and not the Holy Spirit.  I claim to be casting sin out of my life, putting to death the deeds of the flesh by the Spirit which is what Paul said we will do yet you call me a liar, and try to justify your position by claiming I am self righteous.  How am I self righteous if I am doing exactly as Paul said we would? You continue to neglect the fact that God said through Him all things are possible.  By you claiming that we cannot cease from sin even by being lead by the Holy Spirit then you are calling God a liar.  If God said it He will bring it to pass.  Do you believe that if we are lead by the Holy Spirit we will not fulfill the desires of the flesh?  If you do not then you are calling Paul a liar.  Do you believe if we are practicing the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5 and 2 Peter 1) that we will never stumble?  If you do not then you are calling Peter a liar.  Do you believe that those who suffer in the flesh as he has suffered in the flesh have ceased from sin? If not, you are again calling Peter a liar, 1Pe 4:1-2  Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin,  (2)  so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.  Notice Peter also says they do not live the rest of the time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.

 

 

[Mr Nice]

 

Joshua, Torah observant Jewish people don't struggle with the flesh, at least you seem to think.  Jewish people struggle with what is known as "halacha."  They struggle with making sure that they have all the lights on timers before the Sabbath,  their big sin is something like not getting Sabbath candles lit at exactly 18 minutes before sundown.

Jewish people struggle with things like not walking more than six feet without their head covered and stuff.  What they define as "sin" and what you and I would see as "sin" are necessarily the same thing.  They are not trying to keep the law.  They striving to keep rabbinic regulations that are extra to keeping the law.

They don't believe they are fallen sinners with a sin nature or "flesh" as Paul calls it.  It is a completely different mindset that perhaps what you are familiar with.  What they struggle with is making sure they don't meat and milk within 30 minutes of each other.

 

Now that alot of that confusion is out of the way. I do disagree with your assessment on what the Jews of that day believed and the Romans 7 man. The law which Paul thought was to bring life only brought condemnation. Paul was a devout Jew who delighted in the law. A believer is not under the law.  When Paul was talking about the sin in himself, he was referring to being under the law and not being able to keep it because the sin in Him took advantage of the law.

Romans 7:13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.

We now have His Spirit and can follow Him under the law of the Spirit of life. What the law, "Commandments," couldn't  do, 'deal with our sin,' God did by sending our own Son. In Christ we are free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,

What is the law of sin and death?

Romans 7:21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.

The sin that took advantage of the law producing evil desire in us. We are free from that. We no longer have to live bound to it.

You said the Jews had a difference of opinion of sin, but the sacrifices were a reminder of sin. They knew what sin was because of the law, and sacrifices were made year after year reminding them that they missed it.

Hebrews 10:1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

Paul knew what sin was because of the law, and realized the law lacked what he needed to keep it.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead.

To say that the Romans 7 man is a believer struggling with the flesh is to say that we are under the law, but we are not. The Romans 7 man was under the law. We died to the law so we can be married to Christ.

Romans 7:4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

Do you see what that passage is talking about? We become dead to the law to be married to Christ so we can bear fruit to God. It says, "When we were in the flesh" pointing back to being under the law. But now we've been delivered from the law so we can serve in the newness of the Spirit! The Spirit produces fruit to God.

Again, Paul says, we are not under the law. The flesh and the Spirit are contrary to one another.

Galatians 5:16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

When we come to Christ the flesh is crucified with Him and it's desires.

Galatians 5:24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires

Romans 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.

Such a glorious Gospel! That the blood of Jesus frees me from who I was. That old man is dead, there is no resurrecting him. A big issue is when we try to make the old man look like Jesus instead of letting him go.

Colossians 3:8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light 9 (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), 10 finding out what is acceptable to the Lord

Colossians 3:1 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,

Colossians 1:1 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God

Colossians 3:22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

Here is where we differ in our theology. I believe I am who God says I am, that the Born again me is the real me, the old man is dead, who I was in the flesh, now I need to renew my mind to the reality of Christ and put off the residue of the former life. If I sin, that is not who I am, I'm acting out of character to who I really am in Christ. God made me righteous so that righteousness can manifest through my life and now I am free to fully follow the Lord with everything we are.

You believe, please correct me if I'm wrong, that you are born again, and your spirit doesn't sin, but you have an evil in your body that will always be driven to sin and are waiting for Jesus to return to give you a new nature with a new body. If you sin, that's just because your a sinner whose saved by the mercy of God. God legally says your righteous but your not really righteous because we lack the ability to fully follow after God because of the sin that dwells in us.

 

 

Yes, we lack the ability which is why Christ sent His Spirit to help in our time of need.  For through His Spirit we will not fulfill the desires of the flesh.  We are to love God with ALL of our heart, mind, soul, and strength.  If we are sinning then we are we are not loving God with all of our heart, for out of the heart come every evil thought.  We are to love from a pure heart.  

2Ti 2:21-26  Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.  (22)  Now flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart.  (23)  But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels.  (24)  The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged,  (25)  with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,  (26)  and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.

 

If you are still sinning then you have not escaped the snare of the devil and your repentance has not lead you to the knowledge of the truth.

[Mr Nice]

 

 

Joshua, Torah observant Jewish people don't struggle with the flesh, at least you seem to think.  Jewish people struggle with what is known as "halacha."  They struggle with making sure that they have all the lights on timers before the Sabbath,  their big sin is something like not getting Sabbath candles lit at exactly 18 minutes before sundown.

Jewish people struggle with things like not walking more than six feet without their head covered and stuff.  What they define as "sin" and what you and I would see as "sin" are necessarily the same thing.  They are not trying to keep the law.  They striving to keep rabbinic regulations that are extra to keeping the law.

They don't believe they are fallen sinners with a sin nature or "flesh" as Paul calls it.  It is a completely different mindset that perhaps what you are familiar with.  What they struggle with is making sure they don't meat and milk within 30 minutes of each other.

 

Now that alot of that confusion is out of the way. I do disagree with your assessment on what the Jews believe and the Romans 7 man. The law which Paul thought was to bring life only brought condemnation. A believer is not under the law.  When Paul was talking about the sin in himself, he was referring to being under the law and not able to keep it.

 

You're only making my point, though Joshua.   Jewish people don't see the the Law as a burden.  They don't see it as an instrument of death.   Paul was the most zealous among his people when before he was born again.   He was almost a sage.  He was a top pupil and would have gone down in history as one of Judaism's greatest Rabbis had he not been saved.

 

Joshua, Romans 7 has two different subject matters that Paul carefully delineates.   In vv. 1-13 Paul is talking about the law and his references are past tense.  That was part of his pre-born again life as a Torah observant Jew.    But if you would pay careful attention to vv. 14-25  Paul switches to the present tense.  He is no longer talking about the past.   You seem to be ignoring that simply grammatical cue because it doesn't jive with what you want to the passage to say.    Paul had a struggle, an inner war with the flesh and he says so.   It is simply not possible given the grammatical structure for it to be about his past struggle with the flesh because by his accounting of himself prior to salvation in Philippians 3 he wasn't strugging at all.  If anything he was ahead of everyone else and zealous above his peers.   

 

The present tense of Rom. 7:14-25 simply torpedoes your argument that it was a struggle with his flesh prior to being born again. 

 

You said the Jews had a difference of opinion of sin, but the sacrifices were a reminder of sin. They knew what sin was because of the law, and sacrifices were made year after year reminding them that they missed it.

 

What I am saying is that Jews don't see themselves as sinners, per se.   Jewish theology in the days of Paul and since then does not carry in it the notion that they are sinners in need of personal salvation.    The sacrifices were reminders of sin, but you need to understand that in Jewish theology, in Paul's day and even today, is seen as a corporate thing, and individual.  Jewish theology does not have a personal salvation component.   Sacrifices were not about salvation, they were not the means of OT salvation.    Jewish theology saw God as the one who would bring salvation to the nation, and establish His Kingdom in Israel.  That's "salvation"  from a Torah observant Jew's perspective. 

 

Paul knew what sin was because of the law, and realized the law lacked what he needed to keep it.

 

But that was ONLY after he spent 3 years in Arabia being taught by the Lord and basically having to unlearn some things and learn new things.

 

 

Here is where we differ in our theology. I believe I am who God says I am, that the Born again me is the real me, the old man is dead, who I was in the flesh, now I need to renew my mind to the reality of Christ and put off the residue of the former life. If I sin, that is not who I am, I'm acting out of character to who I really am in Christ. God made me righteous so that righteousness can manifest through my life and now we are free to fully follow the Lord with everything we are.

 

Actually, I completely agree with that.   Where you and I disagree is that you seem unable to comprehend the fact that you still have a sin nature.   You fail to see that while you are born again and born of God, your flesh (sin nature) was not eradicated.   Your old man is dead; he died at the moment you were saved.  But your flesh is not the "old man."  The old man is the old self that died when your spirit was made alive.  Your flesh (which is not the human body) is still unregenerated.  It is still there and wars against the spirit (Gal. 5:17)   In fact, if you don't have a sin nature, you would not sin at all; no would sin at all.  Every Christian would have no choice but walk in sinless perfection if the flesh were eradicated altogether.

 

And Yes, you are legally declared righteous, but not inherently righteous.  That is basic theology, Joshua.   The word for justified, or "made righteous" is  a legal term in the Greek.  It refers to judicial decision.   It does not mean that you are inherently righteous.   That my burst a bubble in your theology, but that's the case and you won't find one person who knows Greek who will say otherwise. 

 

Paul makes that case in Romans 4 where he compares the imputation of righteousness to Abraham by faith, with us and says that righteousness is imputed to us in the same way as it was to Abraham.  Abraham was not made inherently righteous and he is the pattern that Paul uses.

 

He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

(Rom 4:20-25)

 

 

At what point was the scripture "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS" fulfilled.  Only when Abraham offered his son as a sacrifice. 

 

Jas 2:21-24  Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?  (22)  You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;  (23)  and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.  (24)  You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

 

"He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief" means that he did not fail to act on what he believed.  

 

Therefore, his belief was imputed to him not when he believed but when he acted on what he believed.  It was after Abraham offered his son that God said he knows that Abraham feared Him.   God also said that because Abraham had done this thing that He would bless him.  That is to say Abraham received from God what he promised not on faith alone but by his faith and works done in faith, for his faith was perfected by his works.

 

Gen 22:10-17  Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son.  (11)  But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" And he said, "Here I am."  (12)  He said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me."  (13)  Then Abraham raised his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him a ram caught in the thicket by his horns; and Abraham went and took the ram and offered him up for a burnt offering in the place of his son.  (14)  Abraham called the name of that place The LORD Will Provide, as it is said to this day, "In the mount of the LORD it will be provided."  (15)  Then the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven,  (16)  and said, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your only son,  (17)  indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies.

 

[Mr Nice]

 

Having His Spirit sent to us doesn't mean we have been sealed, being lead by the Spirit is what guarantees our salvation to come. Otherwise, one would say since I have been sealed by believing, then there is nothing I need to do.  I don't even have to obey.

 

 

More false teaching from you, Mr. Nice.  

 

Here is the truth:

 

In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

(Eph 1:13-14)

 

He is the seal and the guarantee and that is based on faith not on works.   It is the fact that we are sealed and our inheritance is guaranteed that motivates our obedience from  a heart of gratitude and not the obligation of slave.  We work and serve from a posture of thankfulness.  So your argument that having a guarantee means that we won't obey is false.

 

And if we have his Spirit within us we will not sin.  His Spirit is to be our helper in our time of need.  If we are simply sealed as you say and our salvation is guaranteed then we will never have a time of need because there is nothing for us to do. But this is not the case and contradicts scripture.  What need would we have if our salvation is guaranteed?  There is nothing more we would need.  However, His Spirit was given to us to help us in our weakness so that we can serve the living God, having put the deeds of the flesh to death.  It is absolutely 100% about faith but it is in everything God granted to us through His Son.   God has given His Spirit to those who obey Him.

 

Act 5:29-32  But Peter and the apostles answered, "We must obey God rather than men.  (30)  "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross.  (31)  "He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.  (32)  "And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him."

 

I claim we can have complete victory through Christ being freed from sin because I know the truth.  You claim it is impossible to have complete victory over sin (to cease from sin) and your call me a liar and a false teacher.  Christ says we a disciple/slave are not above Him, but it is enough that we become like Him.   And He says if they called Him Beelzebul then they will malign us as well.

 

Mat 10:24-25  "A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his master.  (25)  "It is enough for the disciple that he become like his teacher, and the slave like his master. If they have called the head of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign the members of his household!

 

You claim that there is nothing that we can do to be worthy of the glory of God, but the Bible says otherwise.  So many today take this passage, Luk 17:10, "So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, 'We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done." to mean we cannot be or never will be worthy.  This can only lead to a life and thought process of never being good enough or pleasing to God.  There is no joy in the life of one who believes we cannot be worthy, that we will continue to sin.  This belief does not negate the statement that it is only those who keep His commandments are those who love Christ and God.  It also does not mean we are unworthy because of the following examples.  Some examples are negative statements of which the opposite must be true. If we love Christ more than father or mother we will be worthy is the reverse of Matthew 10:37  "He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me."  If we take up His cross and follow Him we are worthy, Mat 10:38  "And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me."  Matthew 8, the centurion whose servant was healed because he understood the authority which Christ had.  His servant was healed because His faith was worthy even though he believed He was not even worthy enough for Christ to come under his roof. The prodigal son though he felt he was not worthy to be called a son was considered worthy because he humbled himself and returned to his Father who glady accepted Him as His son, Luke 15.  How about the seven brothers who each married the same woman out of duty to each other for none conceived a child with her?  Luke 20, Christ makes the statement, "but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead."  Peter and the Apostles were thankful they were considered worthy to suffer for Christ, Act 5:41.  "So they went on their way from the presence of the Council, rejoicing that they had been considered worthy to suffer shame for His name."   Romans 16:1-2, we can receive each other in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints.  Ephesians 4:1, we can walk in a manner worthy of the calling of the Lord.  Philippians 1:27, we can conduct ourselves in a manner worthy of the Gospel of Christ.  Colossians 1:9-10, we can receive the knowledge of the will of God, thus being able to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in ALL respects and bearing fruit in EVERY good work.  1 Thessalonians 2:12, Paul taught everything for the purpose of us being able to walk in a manner worthy of God.  2 Thessalonians 1:3-5, we can be worthy because of our perseverance and faith in  suffering for Christ.  2 Thessalonians 1:11, God will find us worthy and fulfil every desire for goodness and the work of faith with power.  III John 1:6, we can send others on there way in a manner worthy of God.  Revalation 3:4, there were those of the church who were considered worthy because they had not soiled their garments.  WE CAN BE WORTHY OF ETERNAL SALVATION THROUGH HIM WHO STRENGTHENS US BY THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.   

 

One more question with reference to the following question someone else asked:  If a person sins and dies before he repents of his sin is he lost?  Take this scenario.  A person is taken hostage and is told that if they don't deny Christ they will be killed.  Out of fear they deny Christ (turn their heart from Him) believing they will not be killed and then are killed right after denying Christ and did not repent.  Would this person be lost for this single, unrepented sin before death.  The answer is yes.  For if we deny Christ He will deny us before the Father.  It is the same for other sins.  We sin because we deny Christ to work in our lives.  You are denying His ability to keep you free from sin and are trying to use grace (your liberty) as a covering for evil.  Similar to saying "let us do evil so that good may come" which some were accusing Paul of saying.  Same as "shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound".  Paul vehemently says no, for he who has died to sin would live in it no longer.