Christian perfection

[Mr Nice]

 

How than do we know, abide in, and love Him if His love is not perfected in us?  We don't.  John contradicts your claim that we will only be as He is when He returns.  

 

1Jn 4:17-18  By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.  (18)  There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

 

If His love is not perfected in us then we will have no confidence on the day of judgement.  I will ask this question again, why would God command us to be what we cannot not be?  I will also ask, if we will only continue to live as the Israelites did, what value is the Holy Spirit to us?  In reality, if we continue to sin and can never be perfected in love then all His sacrifice really did was saved a bunch of animal from being sacrificed.  The prophecies of the coming of the Christ and what those who are His will do also contradicts what you are claiming.  For we are told He will write His laws upon our hearts, we will keep His commandments, He will be our God, and we will be His people.

The Love of Christ that is perfected in us to make us perfect, as you provided in the verse from 1 John 4:17-18. It is to give us confidence in the day of judgement that we are forgiven for our sins and are covered by Christ. It is His love that is perfect, not us. We, while in this life, can never be perfect. There is only One who was ever perfect, and that is Christ. The mistake you are making is what others make, believing that we need to be perfect. If we could be perfect, then Christ died in vain.

I do not understand your question about living as the Israelis. What do you mean by this and where does this come from?

 

Let me stop you before we start going down the wrong path.  If looking at our entire life, I agree we can never be perfect for all have sinned.  As a Christian we can live perfect as He is perfect, be pure as He is pure, holy as He is Holy, and righteous as He is righteous.  How can we do this?  It is through Christ and everything God promised us. The most important promise is the Holy Spirit.  It is through the Spirit that we are able to walk as Christ walked.  Since we can only walk this way through the Spirit then Christ did not die in vain.   The problem is people don't want to believe it is possible to walk as Christ walked even though scripture says we can.  Thus they want to claim that those who believe it is possible are trying to save themselves by their works.  This is the easiest way for them to justify why sin is still in their life even though we are commanded repeatedly to cease from sin and that God is able to keep us from stumbling. How is it a mistake to think we need to be like Christ since He commanded us to do so and has given us everything to life and godliness.  By claiming we can't be or don't need to be you are negating a substantial portion of scripture.  God never gave a command He did not expect us to keep or could not keep.  The passage in which we are told to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect speaks of what that perfection is.  It is love, for if we are loving as Christ loved us we will be like Him.  Love is why God is perfect.  When His love is perfected in us, then we are like Him as He is in this world.

 

The Israelites continually turned from God, following the desires of the flesh.  Christ died and was raised from the dead so that he could redeem us and purify for Himself a people zealous for good works.  However what you believe says that we are no different than the Israelites that we are not and will not be purified until Christ returns.  If this is the case than Christ's sacrifice has provided nothing to us and we are still lost in our sins.  Thus Christ will have died in vain.  But Christ died so that we would be freed from sin, to no longer be under its power.

 

Tit 2:11-14  For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,  (12)  instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,  (13)  looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,  (14)  who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.

[almightyist]

Good job....Mr. Nice. You have done a wonderful job of presenting walking with the Holy Spirit. The old man is crucified on the cross with JESUS. The new man still needs to live in this world. He has to carry his cross daily. Crucify his flesh. Narrow is the gate and difficult. Man can't do it without JESUS. The difficult part is the enemy.

Matthew 7:13-27 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

“Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”

The wrath of Almighty God is because of sin. JESUS was quite clear about sin. It is about your actions, behaviors, and attitudes towards sin. Love doesn't delight in wickedness and condemned is anybody that delights in wickedness. Anybody that tries to justify sin.....avoid. They reap what they sow.

 

Are you telling us that you never sin?

1 John 2:1-6 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him.

By this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

Romans 8:16-17 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

[OneLight]

Let me stop you before we start going down the wrong path.  If looking at our entire life, I agree we can never be perfect for all have sinned.  As a Christian we can live perfect as He is perfect, be pure as He is pure, holy as He is Holy, and righteous as He is righteous.  How can we do this?  It is through Christ and everything God promised us. The most important promise is the Holy Spirit.  It is through the Spirit that we are able to walk as Christ walked.  Since we can only walk this way through the Spirit then Christ did not die in vain.   The problem is people don't want to believe it is possible to walk as Christ walked even though scripture says we can.  Thus they want to claim that those who believe it is possible are trying to save themselves by their works.  This is the easiest way for them to justify why sin is still in their life even though we are commanded repeatedly to cease from sin and that God is able to keep us from stumbling. How is it a mistake to think we need to be like Christ since He commanded us to do so and has given us everything to life and godliness.  By claiming we can't be or don't need to be you are negating a substantial portion of scripture.  God never gave a command He did not expect us to keep or could not keep.  The passage in which we are told to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect speaks of what that perfection is.  It is love, for if we are loving as Christ loved us we will be like Him.  Love is why God is perfect.  When His love is perfected in us, then we are like Him as He is in this world.

I have seen many who believed as you do find much grief when they realize they cannot live such a life of perfection in the flesh. We can never be perfect and He is perfect. Oh, I will agree it is a dream to be able to live a life of perfection, but we are not God, even though the Holy Spirit dwells in us. What you present is our goal, to be like Christ. I will ask you the very same question I ask almightyist, are you telling us you never sin?

 

 

The Israelites continually turned from God, following the desires of the flesh.  Christ died and was raised from the dead so that he could redeem us and purify for Himself a people zealous for good works.  However what you believe says that we are no different than the Israelites that we are not and will not be purified until Christ returns.  If this is the case than Christ's sacrifice has provided nothing to us and we are still lost in our sins.  Thus Christ will have died in vain.  But Christ died so that we would be freed from sin, to no longer be under its power.

You are very incorrect to say that is what I am saying. We are purified through the washing of His blood, yet we are not perfect. TO say we are without sin is deceiving ourselves. No man can walk 100% in the Holy Spirit as Jesus did, despite what verse they quote. We will sin, and when we do, we must repent. The point is, we will sin because we are not perfect as He is perfect. AS we turn our lives over to Christ, little by little, He changes us so we do turn to Him instead of giving into sin, which is how He works in our lives. If that is not true, than every believer should of lived a perfect life the moment they received the Holy Spirit. Since that is never been the case, your theology is in error. There has been nobody but Jesus who lived a perfect life, even if we consider the point of salvation the beginning of the time considered.

 

Tit 2:11-14  For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,  (12)  instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,  (13)  looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,  (14)  who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.

As I mentioned above, the scripture you provide is our goal, not a promise that they will be successful in every believers life. 

[OneLight]

 

 

Good job....Mr. Nice. You have done a wonderful job of presenting walking with the Holy Spirit. The old man is crucified on the cross with JESUS. The new man still needs to live in this world. He has to carry his cross daily. Crucify his flesh. Narrow is the gate and difficult. Man can't do it without JESUS. The difficult part is the enemy.

Matthew 7:13-27 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

“Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”

The wrath of Almighty God is because of sin. JESUS was quite clear about sin. It is about your actions, behaviors, and attitudes towards sin. Love doesn't delight in wickedness and condemned is anybody that delights in wickedness. Anybody that tries to justify sin.....avoid. They reap what they sow.

 

Are you telling us that you never sin?

 

1 John 2:1-6 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him.

By this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

Romans 8:16-17 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

 

Jesus knows the heart of every person who ever lived, and He also knows we are not perfect. As I wrote to Mr. Nice, I will repeat here. Even though we have His Spirit in us, we still live in the flesh and are tempted by the desire therein. We will have many victories through Him, but we are not perfect. How much we reflect He who is in us depends on where we are in our walk with Him. When a person first believes in Jesus, they are saved, but have a long road ahead of themselves as they grow into a mature believer, making many mistakes along the way. Even Paul admitted he was not perfect for he has a thorn in his side. But according to what you just said, if they are not perfect then they are not Gods child. Is that scriptural? No, it is not. You see, we are His children and He knows very well we will stumble and fall until we are perfected in Him when we are with Him. What makes it a life not worth living is when someone tries to convince others they are not His unless they are perfect.

[Guest]

Can a Christian,

 

who believes in all the promises of God

 

and the He who is in him is greater than he who is in the world,

 

live the rest of his days blameless

 

and fully sanctified?

 

To Be Blameless For The Rest Of Your Life

 

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2 Corinthians 5:21

 

You Must Be Clothed With The Righteousness Of Christ

 

Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

 

I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

 

As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Revelation 3:17-19

 

For All Other Ways Are

 

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

 

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

 

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. Revelation 3:20-22

 

The Ways Of

 

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Matthew 7:13

 

Death

 

Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Matthew 7:14

[Mr Nice]

 

 

I repeat:

 

Philippians 3:12 is referring to Paul's not already having attained perfection.  It would be pretty stupid for Paul to proclaim that he had not already arisen from the dead.  

 

1 John 1:8 clearly states that IF WE SAY WE HAVE NO SIN, WE DECEIVE OURSELVES AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IT US..  NKJV

This certainly states that we are not yet perfect and that those who think they are are only fooling themselves.  

 

Can we overcome habitual sin?  By all means.  

Can we lead a victorious, abundant life?  Absolutely

Will we all be perfect like Jesus when we are in heaven?  Yes, because we will see Him as He is.  

Can we live in love and never fail?  Like I said, I would like to hear from your wife..  But that certainly is our goal.

Since salvation is completely a gift from God, there is nothing I can do to add to the work of Christ.  But the bride of Christ will be clothed in the righteous acts of the saints.  These acts are the product of our salvation.  They don't produce salvation, salvation produces them.  No one is saved by good works or there would be a lot of boasting in heaven, as stated in. Eph. 2.  

 

Since this is only an opinion forum and few are allowed to teach, I will refrain from sermons or tomes.  I have stated my opinion as confirmed by scripture.  Nor will I debate this issue.

 

Perhaps someone else would like to debate this in the soapbox debate or one of our teaching staff would teach on this issue in the study group.  

 

Having said that, I am very grateful to God for giving some of you victory over sin in your lives by whatever means, and I would never want to take that away from you.

He did a similar work in me by changing me to look more like Jesus by the washing of the Word and the finished work on the cross.  I bear this treasure, Jesus, in this imperfect cracked pot of an earthen vessel.

 

Meanwhile we agree to disagree, and we continue to love each other in spite of conflicting interpretations of God's Word.  It is the Spirit of Christ in each of us that unifies us and gives us true common ground. I also respect anyone who bases their doctrine on God's Word.

 

Blessings to you all,

Willa

 

 

I am sorry you do not believe you can possess your own vessel in sanctification and honor, that you can cleanse yourself (through His Spirit) of all wickedness so that you can be a vessel of honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.

 

Ooops! Now you have put words in my mouth that I never said. In fact I believe the opposite. Perhaps I mislead you. I had just told you that God had accomplished a similar work of transformation in me by the completed work of the cross (His imputed righteousness) and the washing of the Word. Eph. 5:26 that He might santify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the Word. NKJV" I had agreed that we can overcome sin. I have emphasized the need to walk in the Spirit. By hearing God's voice and following Him all of the rest is being accomplished.

Since 1John 5:13 states that the book is written to believers, I trust the people being addressed in 1John 1:8 are also believers.

We are told to not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of our minds, and to put on the Lord Jesus Christ and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts. Rom. 12:2, 13:14.

But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord. 1 Cor. 2:18 NKJV

Everyone who disagrees with the doctrine of attaining perfection in this life is not automaticly living in habitual sin; this is a false assumtion of some. Our doctrine has brought us also to a state of blamelessness before God when neither our consciences nor our hearts condemn us. But we are aware that God can see imperfections that are yet to be revealed and will be dealt with when they are. Most people here are aware of some of the bad attitudes I struggle with. Often I note them by saying I am preaching to myself again. Each time they pop up I confess them and ask God to deal with them.

By making false statements and assumptions about my beliefs you are being less than loving. Please address beliefs in an objective manner.

 

 I am not sure exactly what I said that misrepresented what your beliefs are, but I am sorry if I have.  Thanks for letting me know. 

[Mr Nice]

 

Let me stop you before we start going down the wrong path.  If looking at our entire life, I agree we can never be perfect for all have sinned.  As a Christian we can live perfect as He is perfect, be pure as He is pure, holy as He is Holy, and righteous as He is righteous.  How can we do this?  It is through Christ and everything God promised us. The most important promise is the Holy Spirit.  It is through the Spirit that we are able to walk as Christ walked.  Since we can only walk this way through the Spirit then Christ did not die in vain.   The problem is people don't want to believe it is possible to walk as Christ walked even though scripture says we can.  Thus they want to claim that those who believe it is possible are trying to save themselves by their works.  This is the easiest way for them to justify why sin is still in their life even though we are commanded repeatedly to cease from sin and that God is able to keep us from stumbling. How is it a mistake to think we need to be like Christ since He commanded us to do so and has given us everything to life and godliness.  By claiming we can't be or don't need to be you are negating a substantial portion of scripture.  God never gave a command He did not expect us to keep or could not keep.  The passage in which we are told to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect speaks of what that perfection is.  It is love, for if we are loving as Christ loved us we will be like Him.  Love is why God is perfect.  When His love is perfected in us, then we are like Him as He is in this world.

I have seen many who believed as you do find much grief when they realize they cannot live such a life of perfection in the flesh. We can never be perfect and He is perfect. Oh, I will agree it is a dream to be able to live a life of perfection, but we are not God, even though the Holy Spirit dwells in us. What you present is our goal, to be like Christ. I will ask you the very same question I ask almightyist, are you telling us you never sin?

 

 

Honestly I cannot claim to be without sin.  Do I think I am saved? No. Am I fine with that? No.  But who am I to tell God that He can not judge me for doing that which He has commanded through Christ.  I will not in anyway attempt to justify having sin in my life.  Am I distraught about it?  No, God is patient and wishes that no one should perish and that all men would repent.  It is easier to accept the fact that God has the right to judge me then to believe I will always continue to sin and fail God.

 

I certainly don't sin daily as so many claim we do.  I do continue to work out my salvation with fear and trembling because the wrath of God will be poured out on the sons of disobedience and that is what we are if we continue to sin.

 

 

The Israelites continually turned from God, following the desires of the flesh.  Christ died and was raised from the dead so that he could redeem us and purify for Himself a people zealous for good works.  However what you believe says that we are no different than the Israelites that we are not and will not be purified until Christ returns.  If this is the case than Christ's sacrifice has provided nothing to us and we are still lost in our sins.  Thus Christ will have died in vain.  But Christ died so that we would be freed from sin, to no longer be under its power.

You are very incorrect to say that is what I am saying. We are purified through the washing of His blood, yet we are not perfect. TO say we are without sin is deceiving ourselves. No man can walk 100% in the Holy Spirit as Jesus did, despite what verse they quote. We will sin, and when we do, we must repent. The point is, we will sin because we are not perfect as He is perfect. AS we turn our lives over to Christ, little by little, He changes us so we do turn to Him instead of giving into sin, which is how He works in our lives. If that is not true, than every believer should of lived a perfect life the moment they received the Holy Spirit. Since that is never been the case, your theology is in error. There has been nobody but Jesus who lived a perfect life, even if we consider the point of salvation the beginning of the time considered.

 

 

Where in the Bible does it say that we cannot walk 100% in the Holy Spirit?  It doesn't, but it does say we can.  I can do all things through Him etc., I can stop all the flaming arrows of satan with the shield of faith, etc.  I would have to disagree with you about no one as a Christian walked perfectly for the Bible speaks of those who did.  They are those who like Paul were formerly disobedient, were darkness, etc. and turned to God, walking in the Spirit.  Maybe He does work in us little by little because He is patient hoping that we will repent and turn from our wicked ways.

 

 

Tit 2:11-14  For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,  (12)  instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,  (13)  looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,  (14)  who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.

As I mentioned above, the scripture you provide is our goal, not a promise that they will be successful in every believers life.

 

 

I don't believe being commanded to be perfect, holy, blameless, to prove ourselves innocent and blameless are given as goals.  They are most certainly commands.  What we have been promised is that there is no sin which we can not bear and that he will always provide the way out.  We have been told that if we practice the fruit of the Spirit then we will never stumble.

[Mr Nice]

 

 

 

Good job....Mr. Nice. You have done a wonderful job of presenting walking with the Holy Spirit. The old man is crucified on the cross with JESUS. The new man still needs to live in this world. He has to carry his cross daily. Crucify his flesh. Narrow is the gate and difficult. Man can't do it without JESUS. The difficult part is the enemy.

Matthew 7:13-27 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

“Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”

The wrath of Almighty God is because of sin. JESUS was quite clear about sin. It is about your actions, behaviors, and attitudes towards sin. Love doesn't delight in wickedness and condemned is anybody that delights in wickedness. Anybody that tries to justify sin.....avoid. They reap what they sow.

 

Are you telling us that you never sin?

 

1 John 2:1-6 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him.

By this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

Romans 8:16-17 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

 

Jesus knows the heart of every person who ever lived, and He also knows we are not perfect. As I wrote to Mr. Nice, I will repeat here. Even though we have His Spirit in us, we still live in the flesh and are tempted by the desire therein. We will have many victories through Him, but we are not perfect. How much we reflect He who is in us depends on where we are in our walk with Him. When a person first believes in Jesus, they are saved, but have a long road ahead of themselves as they grow into a mature believer, making many mistakes along the way. Even Paul admitted he was not perfect for he has a thorn in his side. But according to what you just said, if they are not perfect then they are not Gods child. Is that scriptural? No, it is not. You see, we are His children and He knows very well we will stumble and fall until we are perfected in Him when we are with Him. What makes it a life not worth living is when someone tries to convince others they are not His unless they are perfect.

 

Where in scripture does it say we will sin as a Christian?  please don't say 1 John 1 because a Christian will never claim he has no sin or has not sinned for he already made this confession when he came to Christ.  So many claim we will continue to sin but cannot support it with scripture.  

 

Do you know what Paul's thorn in the flesh was?  No one does because it did not say.  However the context would point to something other than sin that was hard for him to deal with. If you believe it to be sin then you must claim that God sent a demon to Paul to cause Him to Sin.  What both Christ and Paul said in this passage points to leaning on God and His power to help us when we are weak, but being weak does not mean we will sin.  God's grace is sufficient where His grace includes all He has promised us in Christ.

[Guest shiloh357]

Why would the Holy Spirit inspire Paul to write to the churches about their need to forgive one another and forbear with one another if the expectation is that Christians will never sin a again?    Why the commandment to confess our faults to each other if the expectation is that we are not to have any faults after we get saved??  

 

There are a lot of teachings on forgiveness, mercy, patience, forbearance, and so on between believers that should not be part of the New Testament if the Lord anticipates that we will never sin after getting saved.   Look at the virtues listed in Col. 3:12-14.  Those virtues are what we are commanded to put in order to forbear and forgive  each other in community.   The need to forbear and forgive implies that we are not perfect. 

 

Here's something else...   It is the claim of certain people that they no longer commit sin, that they live in complete sinless perfection...    It be an interesting experiment to test that claim by interviewing people with whom they are in relationship with to find out if this is the case.   Interview co-workers, neighbors, relatives, and others who know them to see if people they know feel that this person claiming to be perfectly sinless really measures up to that standard.

 

It's easy to get on a message board and claim to be sinlessly perfect. Easy to get on here and hide one's faults, and draw backs/flaws in their personality...  

 

I can imagine if we are to compare notes with their friends and family, we might get a more accurate picture of what they're really like.

[almightyist]

Matthew 5:27-30 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

Matthew 5:21-22, 27-30 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire. “

Matthew 12:36-37 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

After reading those scriptures Under the New Covenant, you realize Jesus is asking a lot more from us. Jesus said...pluck out your eye...cut off your hand....if it causes you to sin...Old Testament just said don't commit adultery....Jesus took it way past that...

Under the New Covenant....by your words you will be justified or condemned...

Revelation 2:23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.

Now it is words, minds, heart, actions, behaviors, and attitudes that all human beings will be judged by.

The reason he asked more...because being a Child of God is a huge responsibility....Eternal life is a great gift...Jesus expects a lot from us...but we are never alone...we have a helper...he teaches us all things...without the Holy Spirit....I'm hell bound....with the Holy Spirit everything is possible...

John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

1 Corinthians 5:11-13 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”

The Holy Word is quite clear on people who claim to be a brother or sister in Jesus who practice lawlessness.

Everything discussed in this topic...take it to the Holy Spirit...he will teach you all things...

Acts 1:5, 8 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

Edited January 4, 2015 by almightyist