Spock Posted January 10, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,239 Content Per Day: 0.85 Reputation: 1,686 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted January 10, 2015 . The two witnesses in Rev 11 are symbolic of the two sets of holy martyrs in the fifth seal. The Greek term for martyr means witness. God's Law requires the testimony of at least two witnesses before guilt can be judged, punishment executed. That is why God sent two witnesses [two angels] to Sodom before God destroyed it. . Where do you come up with this stuff? Symbolic?????????? Really?????? These guys literally die and literally rise after three days. Notice what powers they have too. Sound like Elijah type powers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spock Posted January 10, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,239 Content Per Day: 0.85 Reputation: 1,686 Days Won: 6 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted January 10, 2015 Hi Sister, Just popping in & I agree with you. The 2 witnesses have witnessed things of Christ & they are telling of Him to Israel, so they can receive their Messiah. I always try & think of God`s purpose so that the details will then flow from that. Bless you, Marilyn. Thank you Marilyn I have been reading your replies here and there and see you have a keen eye for truth! Some of the things you have mentioned on here have absolutely blown me away! Many of you guys here in fact have so much knowledge, and even though I don't say much, or give my input to many posts, I feel a sense of warmth inside me just witnessing all the wonderful things God has shown you all. Truly, you guys have moved on from the milk and are right into the solids. God bless you too Marilyn. Ahhhh, you Aussies always stick together, don't you. By the way, Are you HER sister? Lol J/k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wingnut- Posted January 10, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 39 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,673 Content Per Day: 1.30 Reputation: 7,358 Days Won: 67 Joined: 04/22/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted January 10, 2015 Yes, I have considered Moses, but Moses died. And it is appointed once for man to die, not twice. Also, Moses was not allowed to enter the promised land because he made the Lord angry. Plus, Enoch is brought into the end times discussion by Jude, and Enoch does not come up much so it seems odd that Jude would point to a prophecy that is not found in our bible. Elijah we agree on. Ultimately for me though, when I look through all of scripture, and there are only two people that did not die, they have to be the two. We don't know much about Enoch, but we do know that his faith was strong enough that God took him. Keep in mind also, the two witnesses are not coming for the Jews, they are coming for the world. The Jews will be off in the wilderness, Jerusalem is given over to the Gentiles, and the two witnesses are in Jerusalem, not in the wilderness with the remnant. Hi Wingnut Yes it is appointed once for a man to die, that's what the scriptures state, but in my opinion, that is the general rule for all men..... but with a few exceptions. Take Lazarus for example, ...he was "raised from the dead", not "resurrected". Lazarus was not raised to spirit, but back to his former position - flesh. He died again although it doesn't state. ..And all the others Jesus raised from the dead....they died again. Well it doesn't state this clearly but I am assuming, because Jesus was the first one to be "resurrected", the others could not have been. They just simply had the breath of life put back into them. Lazarus' body was decaying also, but this was no problem for Christ. So would you agree that these examples break that general rule of a man only dying once? I say they died twice. Moses will die twice also, ....just that he had a long gap before being "raised from the dead" His body well and truly decayed. Elijah having not died, will however experience death for the first time when the two of them are killed. There's a big difference between being just "raised from the dead", and "resurrected". Once resurrected, one can never die again, nor have to live in this material world. I don't think it's impossible for God to perform anything if it serves his purpose. That's just my view Wingnut, ....you don't have to agree with me, but I have really been thinking about this for some time and think it's worth a discussion! Always a pleasure to talk with you. God bless. Hello again sister, I agree with you, and you make a very good point in regards to the individuals such as Lazarus that were resurrected. I also would have to say that yes, they did indeed die twice. I also agree that there is a difference between the type of resurrection Lazarus underwent verses the type of resurrection to a glorified body that we will all receive together. I also agree that this is not impossible for God to do. However, at some point, Enoch must die as well. And there is still the issue regarding the two olive trees, with Moses and Elijah both being Jews, you only account for one of the olive trees. I agree that anything in scripture is worth discussing. Had Moses not angered the Lord, he probably would have been one of the two witnesses, but God knew what would happen with Moses, so Elijah was the one. Enoch was chosen long before either of the other two came along. When we look at both Enoch and Elijah, we see that both were taken from the earth before they died a natural death, and when we look at Moses, we see that he angered the Lord, was forbidden to enter the promised land, told he would die in the wilderness, and that is precisely what happened. Regardless of whether God can let Moses die twice, the other two still have to die once at least. Thanks for indulging me in the conversation, God bless you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted January 10, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 13,327 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,569 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted January 10, 2015 Hi wingnut, Now what has Enoch witnessed of the Lord, His life on earth? No. His death? No. His resurrection? No. His ascension? No. Has God given him the ability to bring fire down from heaven or to know the law? No. So what of the Messiah is Enoch going to be a credible witness of? And be a credible witness that has actually seen these things. The defence rests..... Marilyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wingnut- Posted January 10, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 39 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,673 Content Per Day: 1.30 Reputation: 7,358 Days Won: 67 Joined: 04/22/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted January 10, 2015 Hi wingnut, Now what has Enoch witnessed of the Lord, His life on earth? No. His death? No. His resurrection? No. His ascension? No. Has God given him the ability to bring fire down from heaven or to know the law? No. So what of the Messiah is Enoch going to be a credible witness of? And be a credible witness that has actually seen these things. The defence rests..... Marilyn. Jude 1:14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.†16 These people are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage. Well, as seen above, Enoch prophesied about the end. And I would say, since he has had a front row seat going back a long, long way, it is safe to say he knows a lot more than you or I. God bless you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted January 10, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 13,327 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,569 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted January 10, 2015 Hi wingnut, Good try, however to prophecy of something does not mean you have witnessed it. Also he would not have a front row seat as those gone before are not privy to what is going on, on earth. Marilyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted January 10, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 13,327 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,569 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted January 10, 2015 Hi Sister, Thank you for your kind words of encouragement. It is such a joy to come on `Worthy,` & chat together. Even if people think differently we know that eventually we will all come to understand by the Holy Spirit, as He is guiding us into all truth. What a wonderful promise. Bless you, Marilyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wingnut- Posted January 10, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 39 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,673 Content Per Day: 1.30 Reputation: 7,358 Days Won: 67 Joined: 04/22/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted January 10, 2015 Hi wingnut, Good try, however to prophecy of something does not mean you have witnessed it. Also he would not have a front row seat as those gone before are not privy to what is going on, on earth. Marilyn. Lol good try! Hello again dear sister, That really struck me funny. So, you think God took Enoch from the planet because of his great faith and then stuck him in a closet somewhere? To start with, we see in scripture that even those not in heaven are aware of what is going on from the story of the rich man and Lazarus. Now I understand it has become popular for people to believe that no one before Jesus could possibly be in heaven, but what about the transfiguration? Does scripture not say that Moses and Elijah were there? They were both before Jesus, so how could this be? Now, if Moses, who angered the Lord and found himself forbidden from the promised land is not stuck in a closet somewhere. Then why would Enoch, who God took before death because of his great faith, be stuck in a closet somewhere? I have to disagree with you, Enoch was not taken so that God could put him in cold storage. I look forward to your response, God bless you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted January 10, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 13,327 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,569 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted January 10, 2015 Hi wingnut, Good try, however to prophecy of something does not mean you have witnessed it. Also he would not have a front row seat as those gone before are not privy to what is going on, on earth. Marilyn. Lol good try! Hello again dear sister, That really struck me funny. So, you think God took Enoch from the planet because of his great faith and then stuck him in a closet somewhere? To start with, we see in scripture that even those not in heaven are aware of what is going on from the story of the rich man and Lazarus. Now I understand it has become popular for people to believe that no one before Jesus could possibly be in heaven, but what about the transfiguration? Does scripture not say that Moses and Elijah were there? They were both before Jesus, so how could this be? Now, if Moses, who angered the Lord and found himself forbidden from the promised land is not stuck in a closet somewhere. Then why would Enoch, who God took before death because of his great faith, be stuck in a closet somewhere? I have to disagree with you, Enoch was not taken so that God could put him in cold storage. I look forward to your response, God bless you. Hi wingnut, Glad we can have a laugh. I had one about your closet - `stuck in a closet somewhere.` Glad God`s knows where we all are. Now remember that pre-cross OT believers were in Paradise, that is where Enoch & Moses & Elijah etc were. How could any of them be in glory before the Lord took His blood there, as it were. And all NT believers are `asleep` in the Lord, (1 Thess. 4: 14) You certainly keep me on my toes, wingnut. Marilyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wingnut- Posted January 11, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 39 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,673 Content Per Day: 1.30 Reputation: 7,358 Days Won: 67 Joined: 04/22/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted January 11, 2015 Hi wingnut, Glad we can have a laugh. I had one about your closet - `stuck in a closet somewhere.` Glad God`s knows where we all are. Now remember that pre-cross OT believers were in Paradise, that is where Enoch & Moses & Elijah etc were. How could any of them be in glory before the Lord took His blood there, as it were. And all NT believers are `asleep` in the Lord, (1 Thess. 4: 14) You certainly keep me on my toes, wingnut. Marilyn. Hello again Marilyn, Yes, it is good that we can laugh, and I do enjoy conversing with you. Moses and Elijah were seen at the transfiguration, this occurred prior to the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ. So I think you have a serious flaw in your theory here. Scripture tells us that Abraham was justified by his faith, and it certainly appears to say the same thing of Enoch. The fact that Moses and Elijah were out and about before the resurrection of Jesus speaks volumes in regards to those who preceded Jesus in death. He knows His sheep, regardless of what time they walked the earth. In the beginning life was in Him, this has always been the case. What you are suggesting is that somehow people can look into the hearts of others and know what God has revealed to them. What they know, or knew, or understand is not debatable for us, because we are not God. And despite whatever arguments people wish to make to the contrary, the transfiguration clearly shows that people before the resurrection are not just sitting in an idle state somewhere. The Son of God has always been, so at any time since creation He could reveal Himself to whomever the Father enables. I look forward to your response as always, God bless you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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