The 144,000 First-Fruits

[other one]

 

 

 

  As I said, it is possible that they are sealed prior to this, but it seems to me that it is at the midway point, when Satan is hurled down, is when things get nasty. 

 

September 23, 2017

 

 

Interesting, why would you say it is on this date?

 

Revelation chapter 12 speaks of the war in heaven and Michael kicking Satan and his angels out of the heavens to the earth......    the first two verses describe a celestial happening that is unique as far as I can tell.    the woman in the sky with the sun clothing her, the moon at her feet with 12 stars over her head and giving birth to the King star......     That happens on that date and I can not find any time in recorded history that it has happened before, nor after for at least a thousand years...    the 12 stars are the 9 fixed stars in the constellation Leo, but Venus, Mercury and Mars are above her head right in the legs of the lion.    Some people say that God would not use the stars, but we are told in Genesis that they are put there for signs.....   and something that unique I find hard to not pay attention to.

We don't have that long to wait and see.

[wingnut-]

 

 

 

 

  As I said, it is possible that they are sealed prior to this, but it seems to me that it is at the midway point, when Satan is hurled down, is when things get nasty. 

 

September 23, 2017

 

 

Interesting, why would you say it is on this date?

 

Revelation chapter 12 speaks of the war in heaven and Michael kicking Satan and his angels out of the heavens to the earth......    the first two verses describe a celestial happening that is unique as far as I can tell.    the woman in the sky with the sun clothing her, the moon at her feet with 12 stars over her head and giving birth to the King star......     That happens on that date and I can not find any time in recorded history that it has happened before, nor after for at least a thousand years...    the 12 stars are the 9 fixed stars in the constellation Leo, but Venus, Mercury and Mars are above her head right in the legs of the lion.    Some people say that God would not use the stars, but we are told in Genesis that they are put there for signs.....   and something that unique I find hard to not pay attention to.

We don't have that long to wait and see.

 

 

That would mean we are already into the 7 years, but we still don't have a temple built in Jerusalem.

[other one]

 

That would mean we are already into the 7 years, but we still don't have a temple built in Jerusalem.

 

I don't even try and keep up with those timings.....    Don't know how his being kicked out of heaven pertains to the last 7.    i've spent hundreds of hours many years ago and really never got all the different things to fit together like I would want them to preach on it.

 

With the modern tools we now have, it would not take much time to build the temple....    for all I know they may well have all the pieces ready to assemble.

[wingnut-]

 

 

That would mean we are already into the 7 years, but we still don't have a temple built in Jerusalem.

 

I don't even try and keep up with those timings.....    Don't know how his being kicked out of heaven pertains to the last 7.    i've spent hundreds of hours many years ago and really never got all the different things to fit together like I would want them to preach on it.

 

With the modern tools we now have, it would not take much time to build the temple....    for all I know they may well have all the pieces ready to assemble.

 

 

That is true, and actually, the fact that they rebuild the temple doesn't mean they actually get to use it either.  The antichrist could show up and desecrate it as soon as it is finished.

[other one]

 

 

 

That would mean we are already into the 7 years, but we still don't have a temple built in Jerusalem.

 

I don't even try and keep up with those timings.....    Don't know how his being kicked out of heaven pertains to the last 7.    i've spent hundreds of hours many years ago and really never got all the different things to fit together like I would want them to preach on it.

 

With the modern tools we now have, it would not take much time to build the temple....    for all I know they may well have all the pieces ready to assemble.

 

 

That is true, and actually, the fact that they rebuild the temple doesn't mean they actually get to use it either.  The antichrist could show up and desecrate it as soon as it is finished.

 

does it have to be the temple, or is it possible that they could put up the tabernacle like in the desert???.

[ghtan]

 

Hi ghtan,

 

I think we've covered this but I can't remember if it was you who was involved in the discussion or not.  There have been several resurrections (Lazarus, etc.) where people have been raised from the dead but people are only resurrected once in order to put on immortality.  It happens according to this passage:

 

But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.....But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “Death is swallowed up in victory.  1 Corinthians 15:20-24, 54

 

I added v54 for context.  This chapter also has in it a reference to the resurrection-rapture as well.  Do the old testament saints and the two witnesses qualify as being "dead in Christ"?  I guess it depends on how technical you want to get.  Were they raised immortal?  I don't know.  I just try to go by what's written.

 

 

 

Perhaps I should not stray from the focus of this thread, i.e. the 144k. If, as I think you are suggesting, the rapture happens together with the Second Coming in Rev 19, the whole church must have been around in ch 7. How then do you avoid the notion that God would be racially bias if he seals only Jewish believers?

 

 

Racially biased?  That sounds like looking at scripture from the view of contemporary political correctness.  Does it seem fair that someone who works and hour should get the same wage as someone who has worked all day?  What seems right and fair to us may not be how God sees it.  God is sovereign and He can do whatever He wants and it will always be righteous and holy.  Just because the 144k are sealed does not mean that other believers won't be protected during the plagues.  Although we don't know specifically what the 144k do during the plagues, I imagine their seal will protect them as they go into hostile territory and echo the message of the two witnesses.  The rest of the believers I see as "sheltering in place" as the Israelis did in Egypt with the blood of the Lamb protecting them.  At least that's what makes the most sense to me....at this point in time.

 

 

Hi Last Daze,

 

Ha! Ha! I think you are right; this conversation does sound strangely familiar. I think last time I pointed out that Rev 11 says the two witnesses go up to heaven instead of coming back to live on earth after they are resurrected. That should mean they are raised immortal. And of course they earlier die in Christ too.

 

On the point of God's justice, if God seals only Jewish end-time believers, how do we square that with the bible's claim that God does not practice favouritism? Furthermore, if only 144k are sealed, and assuming that there are more than that number of Jewish believers in the last days, would that not mean that some Jewish believers are left out? Would that not also be unfair?

 

That is why I believe the rapture happens at this point. God would be entirely fair then. And it is no accident that the next scene depicts a multitude in heaven from every nation, tribe, people and language. It is a picture of the raptured church.

 

Blessings.

[Sister]

 

The 144,000 are made up of 12 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel.  At no time does Scripture say, or infer, that they are Christians.

 

MorningGlory

 

If you go to Rev 14, it gives us a few more clues concerning the 144,000.

 

Rev 14:4   .......These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth.

 

 

Luke 9:23   And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

John 8:12   Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

John 10:4   And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

John 10:5   And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

John 10:27   My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

[Sister]

My understanding of the Rev.7 chapter about God's servants being 'sealed' is about the 144,000 mentioned, and the "great multitude" (representing Gentile believers), BOTH, together, as Christ's Body.

 

I used to believe the idea that many have about the 144,000, thinking they were orthodox Jews that come to Christ Jesus only during the "great tribulation" timing, what some denominations call "tribulation saints". But that was before I got into a deeper Bible study in the Old Testament about the tribes of Israel, how God split them into two separate kingdoms that also was called 'houses', and how one house became separated from the other with prophecy of their joining back together again only coming in final with Christ's future return (like Ezek.37 two sticks prophecy for one example). That means the two 'houses' will remain apart until Jesus comes.

 

 

 

Salty

 

In the spiritual world there is no descendants of the flesh.

 

Romans 2:29   But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

The two sticks in Ezekiel 37 show us that Israel will be one during the millennium and not divided.

The 144,000 are sealed and protected before the millennial reign begins.  I say these 144,000 have nothing to do with the two sticks.

We cannot apply the future prophecy to now, before the coming.

 

We need to go even deeper and look at the spiritual meaning.  You are speaking of the flesh.

Christ speaks to us of the spirit.

 

John 6:63   It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

 

1 Corinthians 3:3   For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

1 Corinthians 3:4   For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

1 Corinthians 9:11   If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?

[Sister]

 

Some of the problems that come from not understanding that important history from the OT Books is with misrepresenting Israelites of the seed. For example, the other 'house' that was separated from the ten tribes ("house of Israel") was the "house of Judah" (3 tribes). The "house of Judah" became known as 'Jews' (per Jewish historian Josephus, 100 A.D.). With many's thinking today, they consider all Israelites with that title of Jew, when that title only came from the sole tribe of Judah and was then applied to the tribes of Benjamin, Levi, including some small remnants of the ten tribes that left the northern kingdom in Jeroboam's days, and foreigners that lived in the lands of Judea.

 

You are speaking of the flesh.

Christ is not concerned with the flesh, but the spirit inside.

 

An example: A Russian walking in Christ and a Jew not walking in Christ, who would you call a Jew spiritually?

Answer:  The Russian.

Because we are talking about the spirit.

You are talking about history, and you are speaking of the flesh.

 

Romans 2:29   But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

 

 

 

Does this Bible history sound boring? It may sound that way to many brethren, but it is very important to understand it, otherwise one will not properly understand a lot of Bible prophecies for the end as to whom they are meant for, including this matter of the 144,000 of Rev.7.

 

 

What Christ wants us to understand is the things of the spirit, not of the flesh.  The flesh profits nothing.

 

Per 1 Kings 11, God chose Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim to be king over the northern ten tribes which lived in the northern lands of Israel in Solomon's day. Many times in OT prophecy after that the name "Ephraim" is often used to represent the separated ten tribes of the "house of Israel" (like in Hosea). Because God through His servant Jacob gave each one of his 12 sons a prophecy of what would befall them in the "last days" per Genesis 49, that reveals the ten tribes are very well and active in the last days, though their identity and location may not be that well known.

 

That also relates to an important prophecy God gave to Jacob that his seed would become 'a nation, and a company of nations' per Genesis 35, and that his grandson Ephraim would become "a multitude of nations" per Genesis 48. Since per God's Word the tribe of Ephraim became head over the ten tribes, that prophecy is a very important clue and direct pointer about the ten tribes of Israel in the last days apart from the "house of Judah" in Jerusalem.

 

 

Any one of us could be distant descendants of Ephraim, and only God knows who has what in them.  We would have to DNA test everybody.

But what has this got to do with the spirit of Christ?

 

Romans 2:29   But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

 

If an Ephraim is walking in the spirit of Christ, how can you not call him a Jew?

Or someone of a tribe of Rueben following Christ, can you also not call him a Jew?  A spiritual Jew?

Please answer this question.

 

 

In Rev, Jesus said;

 Revelation 2:9   I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

 

It is obvious Christ was not speaking of physical Jews, because the churches were made up of believers, .....some were Greek, some were Samaritans, some flesh Jews and some indigenous of Turkey back then (whatever they were called).

The point is they were all mixed races, and Christ was not speaking of fleshly Jews, but men that came in and worshiped Christ from their lips only and not their heart.

The churches were not for the Jews only, but for followers of Christ regardless of race.

 

And this verse here, gives us a big clue.

 Romans 9:6   Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

 

[Sister]

Hi All,

 

Are we getting closer to what a real Jew is in Christ's eyes?

 

Concerning the resurrection, which one would be considered a Jew?

The Jew that doesn't follow Christ, or an American Indian that does follow Christ?

 

By going into all the history of the lost ten tribes, we lose the message of Christ in the NT. 

Christ was sent to teach us spiritual matters required for the day of resurrection, and not matters according to the flesh.

It is the spirit inside man that quickens, and not the flesh, it is clear.

If we are going back to the flesh, then we are still carnal, and not spiritual.

 

Speaking of the 10 lost tribes is speaking of the physical, and it's all history, past, gone.  This will just lead us into a den of confusion, and take us away from the simplicity in Christ and the promises he made to us concerning the spirit.

 

So spiritually speaking, any one who follows Christ is a spiritual Jew, but not physical.

A Greek person could be a Jew too, (a spiritual Jew)

 

How can a Pakistani be called a son of Abraham unless he is spiritual?..

What's the difference between a Pakistani, a Yugoslav, a German or a Jew walking in the spirit of Christ?

NONE.

For all are counted as Abrahams seed.

 

The 144,000, are they chosen because of the flesh, or because they follow the Lamb wheresoever he goes?

You decide.