The 144,000 First-Fruits

[WilliamL]

 

 

Sorry for the late response, have been unable to access this site for a week, for unknown reasons.

 

 

My answer is that the 7 trumpets will not take place until after the 7 seals have been opened, which is the obvious meaning of this text:

 

Rev. 8:1 When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets.

 

 

 

So you think there would be silence in heaven before we even reach the first woe?

 

Absolutely. What this verse is indicating is a pause in the action for a period, in which nothing can happen.

 

Each of the seven seals had a type and foreshadowing during the era of the first descent of God in judgment, which took place when he came down upon Mt. Sinai. Here is the prototype:

 

Ex. 40:34 Then the cloud covered the tabernacle of meeting, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle. 35 And Moses was not able to enter the tabernacle of meeting, because the cloud rested above it, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.

 

Which is to say, everyone present stood there with their mouths open, and didn't do anything. Note that this took place right after the Tabernacle had been set up, and the priests had completed their order of service, with incense and sacrifice etc.

Now note what takes place immediately before the 7th Seal:

 

Rev. 7:13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” 14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His sanctuary. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them."

 

Which is to say, right after the heavenly sanctuary is ordered and established, and the servants thereof sanctified and readied for their service, there is to be a glorious pause in the action before the sequence of events resumes.

"He who sits on the throne will dwell among them" -- the Greek can equally be translated "spread his tabernacle upon them." This is what took place during the Exodus: the tabernacle of God was established, and God literally dwelt in the midst of his people, on earth. But in the latter-day fulfillment of the prototype, all these things will take place in heaven, among the raptured saints.

[Sister]

 

 

So chapter 14, is another vision.

In the vision, the 144,000 are quickened.  They get quickened at the appearing of Christ, this vision is a glimpse.  A little clue thrown in there. Then it goes backwards again to the angel warning.

 

 

Hi Sister,

 

As I see chapter 14, it seems to be a vision of sequential things.  I say that because of phrases like "and then another" and "and then I looked", etc.  To me, that indicates they are contiguous, and as such, very likely chronological.  Also, the events they describe (after the 144,000) are to me chronological.

 

Hi Last Daze

 

Can I just start with saying this?

The Holy Bible is not just an ordinary book we are reading.  It does not go in order like every other book.  God is a spirit, and he speaks to us through his Word, and his Word is spirit.

The spirit of God that we are tapping into is on another frequency.  It is not on the world's frequency, but in God's frequency, the spirit world.  Sure there are some things that go in chronological order, but to find the jewels, God slips it in everywhere, spread through-out the whole bible he gave us, so we can search for it.  When we pick up these jewels, a picture starts emerging.  If we can see God's plan from start to finish, and picture that kingdom in detail, then God has shown us his hidden treasures.  Many think that they can picture this kingdom, but I see some things contradicting many many scriptures.  It has to fit like a glove.

 

Now to answer your question,  Rev 14, We have a vision of the Lamb standing on Mt Zion with his 144,000..  They were sealed only 7 chapters prior, and all is hazy.  Now we are shown who they are in more detail.  They are true worshipers of Christ, as they followed him wheresoever he goes.  They know a song that only them know and no-one else.  They are obviously quickened here, and they are called the first-fruits.

 

 

1.  The preaching of the gospel before the coming of God's judgment.

2.  God's first act of judgment, the hour in which Babylon (the city) is destroyed. - 2nd seal (beginning of war)

3.  The worship or die ultimatum. - 5th seal

4.  The reaping - 7th trumpet / bowl.

 

 

1. yes, but the preaching has been going on for over 2000 years, so it would be the final warning.

 

2. The 2nd seal is history.  This already happened.  This is false religion.  This rider came on a white horse, posing to be Christ-like, he is conquering but not with the truth, He has a bow (war).  He is preaching Christ, but a different Christ.  A Christ not according to the truth.  The first christian religions were built using Christ's name only for their purposes, and this would be the start of Satan infiltrating the church system by attacking the truth with false doctrines. An attack on the gentiles now, not giving them a chance to start on a true foundation.  Nevertheless Christ name was preached, and the gentiles got to hear who he was.  A couple of hundred years later, they would have access to God's word to find out for themselves and discern between the scriptures of what is considered holy and what is not.

 

When Christ comes on a white horse, he has a two edged sword coming out of his mouth.  This is his weapon, not a bow.

 

So the 2nd seal cannot be the hour in which Babylon is destroyed, because that doesn't come to the 7th seal.  We are about to enter the black horse stage.  This will affect everybody.  This will be a world wide famine as the result of a global economic collapse.  The 10 kings scheme this in the shadows to make way for their new system.... the pale horse (the beast with his false prophet) to come and offer solutions to the world.  It's all downhill from there.

 

3.  Yes

4.  Yes

Those events are in order, as I see it, so why wouldn't the 144,000 scene precede them?  It seems to be a continuous vision which seems to indicate chronological as well.

 

I don't know if you are seeing the 144,000 taken up (quickened), or just sealed in Rev 14.  I see in the vision of them being quickened, ...but not right there and then before the trumpets blow.  It's just a little clue slipped in there, because if you go to the 5th trumpet, it was commanded that only those men without the seal of God can be harmed.   Therefore the 144,000 must still be around, because they are the only ones with the Seal of God.

 

I

agree that the 144k are sealed before the 7 plague angels commence.  Why can this scene in Rev 14 not be of a time before they are sealed?  I agree with the spiritual Mt. Zion interpretation which is probably why they are also seen before the throne and elders.  I see Rev 14:1-5 as indicating that the 144k have been selected prior to the unfolding of God's judgment beginning at the second seal; not sealed, just identified or selected.

 

 

I'm so glad you can see they are sealed before the 7 plagues. 

What you are saying could be so, I wouldn't rule it out completely, but I think the fact that they are standing on Mt Zion, and that they are the first-fruits is a glimpse of them being quickened, 3 1/2 years after they are sealed.

...but, I will think about what you said, it's an interesting view. And I really ponder on it brother.

 

But on the 2nd seal, it can't be as I explained above.

 

Just a thought.  I'm not terribly dogmatic about it.  It just seems to be a natural flow.

 

 

Your thoughts are making me think. I will probably lose sleep. It's all good.

[Last Daze]

 

 

 

So chapter 14, is another vision.

In the vision, the 144,000 are quickened.  They get quickened at the appearing of Christ, this vision is a glimpse.  A little clue thrown in there. Then it goes backwards again to the angel warning.

 

 

Hi Sister,

 

As I see chapter 14, it seems to be a vision of sequential things.  I say that because of phrases like "and then another" and "and then I looked", etc.  To me, that indicates they are contiguous, and as such, very likely chronological.  Also, the events they describe (after the 144,000) are to me chronological.

 

Hi Last Daze

 

Can I just start with saying this?

The Holy Bible is not just an ordinary book we are reading.  It does not go in order like every other book.  God is a spirit, and he speaks to us through his Word, and his Word is spirit.

The spirit of God that we are tapping into is on another frequency.  It is not on the world's frequency, but in God's frequency, the spirit world.  Sure there are some things that go in chronological order, but to find the jewels, God slips it in everywhere, spread through-out the whole bible he gave us, so we can search for it.  When we pick up these jewels, a picture starts emerging.  If we can see God's plan from start to finish, and picture that kingdom in detail, then God has shown us his hidden treasures.  Many think that they can picture this kingdom, but I see some things contradicting many many scriptures.  It has to fit like a glove.

 

Now to answer your question,  Rev 14, We have a vision of the Lamb standing on Mt Zion with his 144,000..  They were sealed only 7 chapters prior, and all is hazy.  Now we are shown who they are in more detail.  They are true worshipers of Christ, as they followed him wheresoever he goes.  They know a song that only them know and no-one else.  They are obviously quickened here, and they are called the first-fruits.

 

 

1.  The preaching of the gospel before the coming of God's judgment.

2.  God's first act of judgment, the hour in which Babylon (the city) is destroyed. - 2nd seal (beginning of war)

3.  The worship or die ultimatum. - 5th seal

4.  The reaping - 7th trumpet / bowl.

 

 

1. yes, but the preaching has been going on for over 2000 years, so it would be the final warning.

 

2. The 2nd seal is history.  This already happened.  This is false religion.  This rider came on a white horse, posing to be Christ-like, he is conquering but not with the truth, He has a bow (war).  He is preaching Christ, but a different Christ.  A Christ not according to the truth.  The first christian religions were built using Christ's name only for their purposes, and this would be the start of Satan infiltrating the church system by attacking the truth with false doctrines. An attack on the gentiles now, not giving them a chance to start on a true foundation.  Nevertheless Christ name was preached, and the gentiles got to hear who he was.  A couple of hundred years later, they would have access to God's word to find out for themselves and discern between the scriptures of what is considered holy and what is not.

 

When Christ comes on a white horse, he has a two edged sword coming out of his mouth.  This is his weapon, not a bow.

 

So the 2nd seal cannot be the hour in which Babylon is destroyed, because that doesn't come to the 7th seal.  We are about to enter the black horse stage.  This will affect everybody.  This will be a world wide famine as the result of a global economic collapse.  The 10 kings scheme this in the shadows to make way for their new system.... the pale horse (the beast with his false prophet) to come and offer solutions to the world.  It's all downhill from there.

 

3.  Yes

4.  Yes

Those events are in order, as I see it, so why wouldn't the 144,000 scene precede them?  It seems to be a continuous vision which seems to indicate chronological as well.

 

I don't know if you are seeing the 144,000 taken up (quickened), or just sealed in Rev 14.  I see in the vision of them being quickened, ...but not right there and then before the trumpets blow.  It's just a little clue slipped in there, because if you go to the 5th trumpet, it was commanded that only those men without the seal of God can be harmed.   Therefore the 144,000 must still be around, because they are the only ones with the Seal of God.

 

I

agree that the 144k are sealed before the 7 plague angels commence.  Why can this scene in Rev 14 not be of a time before they are sealed?  I agree with the spiritual Mt. Zion interpretation which is probably why they are also seen before the throne and elders.  I see Rev 14:1-5 as indicating that the 144k have been selected prior to the unfolding of God's judgment beginning at the second seal; not sealed, just identified or selected.

 

 

I'm so glad you can see they are sealed before the 7 plagues. 

What you are saying could be so, I wouldn't rule it out completely, but I think the fact that they are standing on Mt Zion, and that they are the first-fruits is a glimpse of them being quickened, 3 1/2 years after they are sealed.

...but, I will think about what you said, it's an interesting view. And I really ponder on it brother.

 

But on the 2nd seal, it can't be as I explained above.

 

Just a thought.  I'm not terribly dogmatic about it.  It just seems to be a natural flow.

 

 

Your thoughts are making me think. I will probably lose sleep. It's all good.

 

 

Thanks for your comments, Sister.  I agree that Revelation is not all chronological.  I see chapters 6-11 (first seal through seventh trumpet) as chronological and basically providing a synopsis of the last days before the return of Christ.  I see chapters 12-19 as providing additional detail for the framework of 6-11.  I also see parts of 12-19 as being chronological within themselves such as the bowls.  I think the bowls are in order because of terminology that indicates such like "then the third angel...", etc.  I see the same continuity in Rev 14 with phrases such as "and I saw another angel", and "then I looked", etc.  When it gets to Rev 15 John then sees "another sign in heaven" which to me indicates a break point.  I just wanted to clarify that as the reason I see Rev 14 as chronological since I didn't do a good job at first.

 

Also, I'd like to clarify my "judgment of Babylon on the second seal" idea.  I see the judgment of "Babylon" as two-fold.  The first judgment is the destruction of the world's capital by the ten horns and the beast per Rev 17 where they burn her up with fire.  The second judgment is on the day of the Lord per the seventh bowl.  I see the first seal as being the time of increased deception and false religion that you indicate above.  The second seal I see as beginning a time of war.  The event that I think triggers it is the first judgment of Babylon, the destruction of the world's capital.  This is God's judgment because He has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose per Rev 17:17.  This is not a part of nor to be confused with the seven plague angels which call down God's judgment on the false prophet and his followers, which happens a good bit later on (seven trumpets / bowls).

 

Just wanted to clarify those points.  I'm still curious as to whether you think any (or possibly the majority) of the 144k are saints from days gone by...since the time of Christ.  Your observations have obviously made me think as well.  Thanks again for your thoughts.

[Willa]

Hi Sister,

 

I have a question concerning the 144k.  They are described in Rev 14 as "These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb."  Do you think that all 144k come out of the last generation before Christ returns?  Is there anything that you know of that would keep the 144k from including saints from down through the ages?  The last days are anything but normal.

These are unmarried men of literal Hebrew descent who are sealed by God, likely as we are by the Holy Spirit, who must endure the wrath of God. God will keep them unharmed and protect them. They would have already been sealed had they come from prior centuries. These are a living remnant.

I also agree that there are overlaps of portions of Revelations just as there are in Genesis.. It is the style of writing that takes a closer look at portions of Scripture.

[Sister]

 

 

Hi Last Daze

 

I'll answer this one first.  We have a storm and the power keeps going out.

 

 

 

Just wanted to clarify those points.  I'm still curious as to whether you think any (or possibly the majority) of the 144k are saints from days gone by...since the time of Christ.  Your observations have obviously made me think as well.  Thanks again for your thoughts.

 

 

 

 

There is absolutely no possibility that the 144K are dead saints. They are alive when sealed because by the time we get to the 5th trumpet, they are the only ones protected because they have the Seal of God.  This 5th trumpet is the clue that nails it.  The 5th trumpet involves the living, and not the dead.

 

Revelation 9:4   And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

 

 

It will be just like the days of the passover.  The angel will "pass over" them.

[Sister]

Thanks for your comments, Sister.  I agree that Revelation is not all chronological.  I see chapters 6-11 (first seal through seventh trumpet) as chronological and basically providing a synopsis of the last days before the return of Christ.  I see chapters 12-19 as providing additional detail for the framework of 6-11.  I also see parts of 12-19 as being chronological within themselves such as the bowls.  I think the bowls are in order because of terminology that indicates such like "then the third angel...", etc.  I see the same continuity in Rev 14 with phrases such as "and I saw another angel", and "then I looked", etc.  When it gets to Rev 15 John then sees "another sign in heaven" which to me indicates a break point.  I just wanted to clarify that as the reason I see Rev 14 as chronological since I didn't do a good job at first.

 

 

 

Hi Last Daze

 

Yes I agree with what you are saying.  The seals are in order.  The trumpets are in order, same as the vials.  The order of these events cannot be changed.  It will happen in this order, and yes then additional info like Rev 12, and the Rev 13 goes into detail of this beast and the false prophet.  They refer to the pale horse, and give more details, and the other chapters, more insight also.  I agree with what you said. 

I'm thinking about Rev 14, and I don't see it as chronological, just a vision of this, the 144K, and then in that same vision, jumping to the wrath about to start..

But I'm still thinking about what you said, and the more I think about it, the more I see a little clue, meaning these ones, the 144k, are the ones who really overcome.  Not because they refused the mark only, as the rest, but because they made their robes white whilst alive, and didn't need to go through death to be purified.  These are the ones that Christ has fed in the last generation only with all the hidden manna.  They are chosen by Christ so that the true doctrine of God can be preserved right up till the end.  These have the true testimony of Christ. 

 

Now to make myself clear.  I do not in any way consider myself one of these.  I am just understanding what they are all about, and what they present.  I am prepared for hard times, and I take my salvation with fear, hoping I will be accepted to take part in that first resurrection with all the saints.

 

But I want and desire all that hidden manna.  It's only Christ that can give it to whom he chooses.  If we want it, we have to work for it, to put in the labour to read, and seek for the love of the truth, and not for protecting one's own doctrine.

Any one can compete, and all can run the race, but in the end it's Christ that chooses them.

 

I do not see the 144K as the remnants.  They are definately not the remnants, because it is clear in the OT that the remnants will be brought into the kingdom in the flesh, and not spirit.  It is clear they will multiply, and live safely to the age of 100.  It's clear there will be gentile nations living outside the kingdom, and they can come in and learn, but not live there.

There are so many scriptures clarifying this.  Also the remnants do not know Christ, which is why they have been chosen according to "mercy" (the election of grace) and not because of knowledge.  They will go through the whole tribulation till the end, and will suffer loss, until help arrives.  Then will the veil be taken off.

 

 

A family member is fighting me for this computer, so I have to get off now!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Last Daze]

 

 

 

Hi Last Daze

 

I'll answer this one first.  We have a storm and the power keeps going out.

 

 

 

Just wanted to clarify those points.  I'm still curious as to whether you think any (or possibly the majority) of the 144k are saints from days gone by...since the time of Christ.  Your observations have obviously made me think as well.  Thanks again for your thoughts.

 

 

 

 

There is absolutely no possibility that the 144K are dead saints. They are alive when sealed because by the time we get to the 5th trumpet, they are the only ones protected because they have the Seal of God.  This 5th trumpet is the clue that nails it.  The 5th trumpet involves the living, and not the dead.

 

Revelation 9:4   And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

 

 

It will be just like the days of the passover.  The angel will "pass over" them.

 

 

Hi Sister,

 

I never meant to imply that any of the 144k saints were dead during their time of being sealed in the last days.  It just seems to me that since they are identified as "These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb" that their selection would span back to the days of the twelve tribes and not be limited to the last generation.  What are your thoughts on what happened to these saints:

 

And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split. The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.  Matthew 27:51-53

 

Are they still mortal?  I think so. Were they caught up into heaven.  Probably, otherwise, why the resurrection?  Can God raise from the dead anyone He wishes from at any point in time?  I believe so.  That's why I think it's possible that the 144k might include saints from old that have been raised from the dead for whatever purpose God has for the 144k.  I kind of see the last days as the ultimate showdown (penultimate technically) between good and evil where a lot of strange things happen.  Satan is "all in".  Why wouldn't God bring His "best" from the ages?  Again, just something to think about as a possibility.  I'm not dogmatic about it at all.

[Sister]

 

 

 

Hi Sister,

 

I never meant to imply that any of the 144k saints were dead during their time of being sealed in the last days.  It just seems to me that since they are identified as "These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb" that their selection would span back to the days of the twelve tribes and not be limited to the last generation.  What are your thoughts on what happened to these saints:

 

 

 

Hi Last Daze

 

Anything is possible, but it is not reasonable.  They had Christ.  They saw him, they heard him.  Now go forward 2 thousand years later.  We have so many doctrines out there.  So many different bibles.  So many books, and not only that, look at how evil the times have grown.  Look at all the lies.  They teach evolution and the big bang theory in schools to our children.  They teach us that there is no God, or they teach us that there are many gods, and it doesn't matter which one you believe, because all are good.  So much confusion to get through.  So much to sift and sort through.  For someone to be a christian in the last days and really believe on Christ with all his heart is a great feat. 

 

So if those you mentioned are not dead, then you are thinking they are alive preserved somewhere? Like Moses and Elijah?  What would be the purpose?  But somebody who believes the bible is not just a fable, and seeks with all his heart in the end times, during a world so cold, could get a little encouragement when close to the final hour.

 

 

How can I explain this?  Please persevere with me.  Look at the wording very carefully.

 

Revelation 14:3   And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

 

Only the 144,000 know this song.  No man could learn that song but them.

They sung "as it were" a new song. 

The song originated here;

 

Revelation 5:6   And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

 

Revelation 5:7   And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

Revelation 5:8   And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

 

Revelation 5:9   And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

 

When the 7 seals were about to be opened, the four beasts and the 24 elders where there in heaven.  Witnesses. The end was to be revealed.  The 24 elders and the four beasts were the first to learn and sing this new song.

The Lamb first showed them everything that would be fulfilled concerning the end times.

 

I'd say the book of Rev was written around 70ad.  They could not know that song back then.  It was too early for them.  But we have it in our possession now.

 

So what is this song?

I'll show you in some scripture to give you an idea.

 

Revelation 19:10   And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

 

Let me be more clear.  To have the spirit of prophecy, one has been given understanding of prophecy.  These are the ones that receive the hidden manna. 

It does not mean he is a prophet, but hears the prophets.  Understands the message already given.

All prophecies are recorded in the holy bible.  No man can prophecy anything that is not in there.  Nothing can be added to what is already written.

 

1 Corinthians 14:32   And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets

 

And no man can understand all the prophecies unless it is given to him from Christ.

 

John 16:13   Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

John 16:14   He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

John 16:15   All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

.

And no man could learn that song but the 144,000.

 

Luke 18:31   Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

 

Luke 10:24   For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

 

And no man could learn that song but the 144,000.

 

The hidden manna was not even fully given to the prophets.  They did not  know everything that was to take place.  They were from old times.  They did not understand the technology we have today and how it will be used to fit in with God's plan.  But some of us are at the end now, looking back, and can see clearly now what those prophets did not fully understand themselves, for they were not shown everything, but used as God's instruments for us....to carry a message to us and those along the way who could not possibly understand everything back then.

 

So if one has the spirit of prophecy, he has the true testimony of Jesus.  This is that song.  The song of the Lamb.  Those the Lamb has fed through his Word and the holy spirit.

The holy spirit was not given to those before Christ.  Only after, and I say that these 144K have been given a fairly large measure and were hand chosen from birth.

I don't see them as popular, quite the opposite in fact.  Maybe even detested.  They would not stand out, but their message strong.  Soon there will be a time when no man can work (spiritually), for all ears have been shut.

 

 

 

And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split. The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.  Matthew 27:51-53

 

Are they still mortal?  I think so. Were they caught up into heaven.  Probably, otherwise, why the resurrection?  Can God raise from the dead anyone He wishes from at any point in time?  I believe so.  That's why I think it's possible that the 144k might include saints from old that have been raised from the dead for whatever purpose God has for the 144k.  I kind of see the last days as the ultimate showdown (penultimate technically) between good and evil where a lot of strange things happen.  Satan is "all in".  Why wouldn't God bring His "best" from the ages?  Again, just something to think about as a possibility.  I'm not dogmatic about it at all.

 

 

 

 

They were "raised from the dead" not resurrected.  It doesn't say they died again, but one would presume, because Lazarus after being "raised from the dead" had the Jews wanting to kill him.  He could still die. 

 

John 12:9   Much people of the Jews therefore knew that he was there: and they came not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised from the dead.

John 12:10   But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death;

 

Plus, the apostles had not all died around Jesus death.  Many were still living.  Would it make sense that these others received their reward before the apostles?

The apostles are the foundations.

That's my thoughts anyway.

Thanks for your good questions.  I answered as best I could.  I have so much I want to show and share, but I think this thread is coming to an end shortly.  I've said most of what I want to say, and I'm not here for arguments sake. 

I just suggest that everyone really look into the scriptures for themselves and see what makes sense to them, and seek for that hidden manna.  It's there just waiting to be found, 

and one more thing, if the 144K are the only ones to sing this song, then this song will sound strange to the majority of the christian world and all they like to share would be trampled.

[Last Daze]

Thanks for taking the time to craft a response to my questions Sister.

[Sister]

Thanks for taking the time to craft a response to my questions Sister.

My pleasure Last Daze.

 

No matter what we have all discussed concerning these 144K, I'm sure this subject has stirred us all up.

The reason why I don't want this thread to go and on is because no matter how blessed I see this group, I don't want it to appear as if I am glorifying them.

All the glory goes to God through our Lord Jesus Christ and not man.

 

That doesn't mean that we can't solve this mystery.  It's there to be solved. 

May the Lord give us all the hidden manna so that his name can be glorified in us, because his Word is truth.

 

God bless.