Rev. 7's great multitude before the throne

[Sister]

 

So do you see the multitude in Rev 7 as being all martyrs down through the ages yet to be resurrected?

 

Yes I do.  They are yet to be resurrected. John just had a vision of two groups in the one vision, but they do not occur at the same time.

In Rev 7 we see the 144K being "sealed" (not resurrected)  They are only "sealed" before the 7 trumpets even start, ...because they will be protected from the plagues about to start.

Then after seeing the "sealing of the 144K",  It says "and after this", ...so John is given another vision of the great multitude (1st resurrection) in that same vision.

 

The resurrection of the great multitude does not happen until the 7th trump.  We have a three and a half year gap here between the sealing of the 144K and the 1st resurrection,

.....so doctrine tells us the two different events do not happen exactly one after the other.  There's space in between.

The resurrection is definately after the sealing, but not immediately after.

 

If we have not got our doctrine correct, we can be tripped up, for God has structured his wording in those scriptures in such a way, that not any-one can pick up the scriptures  and say they know exactly what will happen and when,... (ie. non believers, and wolves in sheep's clothing) ....For them it is not given, but only for us to seek.

If we know the order of events, and the timing, then we can place those scriptures exactly by discerning them.

 

God bless.

[WilliamL]

... Revelation 8:8   And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

 Revelation 8:9   And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

 

This burning mountain is thrown into the sea.   God is dividing the seas here into three parts.

The burning mountain falls into one part of the sea, a third part of it only.  We don't know which part yet until it happens, but it will be a busy part of the sea used for traffic.

That one third part becomes contaminated, and everything in that one third part gets contaminated and kills life.

 

 Revelation 16:3   And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

 

Everything in that one third part of the sea that was hit, died..

But we wont know this unless we have read Rev 8 and connect the event.

It's not the whole sea, but only one third where all living creatures die, ....in that area.

There is no scriptural justification for saying that God divides the sea into three parts. Both texts merely say "the sea." The Trumpet-judgment kills only a third of the living creatures in the whole sea, the Bowl-judgment all of them. The latter judgment, which is the Judgment of the nations, is more severe than the former judgment, which concerns the remnant of Israel. This "time of Jacob's trouble" is the period of 1260 days = 3-1/2 times, foretold in Daniel 7 and 12 (prophecies about Daniel's people), and sections of Rev. 11, 12, and 13.

 

Another problem with the theory that the Trumpets and Bowls are concurrent is the distinction between the 1st Bowl and the 5th Seal:

 

Rev. 16:2 And the first [angel] went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

 

At this time, the Kingdom of the Beast has clearly been established for some time. When does the Beast arise?

 

Rev. 11:7 ...the Beast...ascends out of the Abyss...

Rev. 17:8 The Beast...will ascend out of the Abyss...

Rev. 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the Abyss...

 

The Abyss is locked up until the 5th Trumpet is blown: the Beast cannot arise from it before then. Therefore, the 1st Bowl must take place after the 5th Trumpet is blown.

 

One thing unrelated to the above: you did expand my understanding a bit about the 5th Seal. Heretofore I assumed it just referred to the martyrs to be killed in the Great Tribulation, but, having gone back over the Greek, I now understand that it refers both those killed before the trib and those to be killed during it. The symbolism of "under the altar the souls of those who had been slain" is a reference to the OT practice of sin offerings, the only offerings in which the blood was poured out at the base of the altar of sacrifice. Ex. 29:12-14; Lev. 4, etc.

Edited February 10, 2015 by WilliamL

[Sister]

 

Rev. 8:12 Then the fourth angel sounded: And a third of the sun was struck... A third of the day did not shine...

Rev. 16:8 Then the fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and power was given to him to scorch men with fire. And men were scorched with great heat...

 

There simply is not agreement here. These two pairs of events take place at different times, because they are different events: "both are" not "happening at the same event."

 

 

Hi William.

 

Revelation 8:12   And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

 

Revelation 16:8   And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.

Revelation 16:9   And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

 

If God smites a third part of the sun, and there's no light in the day for a third part of the day, then something is obviously blocking the sun from shinning through.  On the other side of the world it would be night time, and the light from the stars will not shine through either, and so it goes, back and forth.

 

What would block the sun from getting through?  Smoke or pollution of some sort.

How would the air escape outside the earths atmosphere through all that blockage?

Well it can't.  The earth would become like an oven.  It would produce great heat.

 

This would not be the same type of heat that God will use when he melts the earth,...because no man would live.

This type of heat is going to be very uncomfortable muggy heat, because the hot air cannot escape, therefore the reason why it's dark for a third part of the day is because the smoke is blocking the sun's rays, and affecting the light from the moon and stars on the other side of the world.

 

All of this is caused from the same 4th angel.  He smites the sun, then we feel the effect, ...the trapped heat. 

 

God bless

[WilliamL]

If God smites a third part of the sun, and there's no light in the day for a third part of the day, then something is obviously blocking the sun from shinning through.  On the other side of the world it would be night time, and the light from the stars will not shine through either, and so it goes, back and forth.

 

What would block the sun from getting through?  Smoke or pollution of some sort.

How would the air escape outside the earths atmosphere through all that blockage?

Well it can't.  The earth would become like an oven.  It would produce great heat.

 

This would not be the same type of heat that God will use when he melts the earth,...because no man would live.

This type of heat is going to be very uncomfortable muggy heat, because the hot air cannot escape, therefore the reason why it's dark for a third part of the day is because the smoke is blocking the sun's rays, and affecting the light from the moon and stars on the other side of the world.

 

All of this is caused from the same 4th angel.  He smites the sun, then we feel the effect, ...the trapped heat. 

 

Scientists don't speak about a nuclear winter for nothing. When the sun's radiation is blocked out -- for example, whenever great volcanoes such as Krakatoa blow up and send huge clouds into the atmosphere that come to span the globe --  worldwide temperatures drop, they do not rise.

[Last Daze]

 

 

So do you see the multitude in Rev 7 as being all martyrs down through the ages yet to be resurrected?

 

Yes I do.  They are yet to be resurrected. John just had a vision of two groups in the one vision, but they do not occur at the same time.

In Rev 7 we see the 144K being "sealed" (not resurrected)  They are only "sealed" before the 7 trumpets even start, ...because they will be protected from the plagues about to start.

Then after seeing the "sealing of the 144K",  It says "and after this", ...so John is given another vision of the great multitude (1st resurrection) in that same vision.

 

The resurrection of the great multitude does not happen until the 7th trump.  We have a three and a half year gap here between the sealing of the 144K and the 1st resurrection,

.....so doctrine tells us the two different events do not happen exactly one after the other.  There's space in between.

The resurrection is definately after the sealing, but not immediately after.

 

If we have not got our doctrine correct, we can be tripped up, for God has structured his wording in those scriptures in such a way, that not any-one can pick up the scriptures  and say they know exactly what will happen and when,... (ie. non believers, and wolves in sheep's clothing) ....For them it is not given, but only for us to seek.

If we know the order of events, and the timing, then we can place those scriptures exactly by discerning them.

 

God bless.

 

 

That just seems a bit out of sequence to me.  I see Rev 6-11 as being a chronological framework for end times related prophecy.  Seeing all those who will make up the resurrection-rapture on the last day before the trumpets even start just doesn't seem to fit.  It makes more sense to me that they are those who have come out of the great tribulation associated with the abomination of desolation, since the sixth seal ends that time of great tribulation....as I see it.

[Ezra]

 

Rev. 7:9 NKJV After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands... 13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” 14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them."

 

1) Who are these people?

2) Why does this passage come after the 6th Seal, and before the 7th Seal?

 

While most interpreters see this vast multitude as "Tribulation Saints" I believe they are the Church which has been raptured and is present in Heaven while the Tribulation is proceeding on earth.  Here are the reasons:

 

1. This multitude cannot be numbered -- those who are raptured and resurrected (both OT and NT saints) will be such a countless multitude.  On the other hand, those who are saved during the Tribulation will be a relative handful (given the circumstances).

 

2. They have "come out" of The Great Tribulation. The KJV should have included "the" before "great tribulation" since the Greek text has it: ἐρχόμενοι ἐκ τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης (come out of THE tribulation THE great). (Rev 7:14).

 

3. "Come out" can mean two things, although most readers will automatically assume just the first (a) been subjected to and (b) escaped out of.  If this vast multitude has actually been subjected to the Great Tribulation then the entire Church would be martyred by the Antichrist (Rev 13:7,15).  But Scripture does not teach that.

 

4. Instead, this is a picture of the Church which "escaped out of" the Great Tribulation, because the Church is NOT appointed to wrath, but unto salvation (1 Thess 5:19).

 

5. That is exactly what is written in Rev 3:10: Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

 

6. As to why this scene is between the 6th and the 7th seals, we need to be aware that the events of the first five seals began in the 1st century and have continued to this day -- false christs, false prophets, persection and martyrdom of Christians, absence of peace, warfare, famine, pestilences, earthquakes (Mt 24:4-14).  Christ called them "the beginning of sorrows".  After that comes the Abomination of Desolation and the Great Tribulation.  Since the Antichrist cannot take control (and set up the Abomination of Desolation) unless the Church and the Holy Spirit have removed their restraining influence over Satan (2 Thess 2:6,7) we see the saints in Heaven just before the Tribulation. [Actually the events of the 6th seal occur immediately AFTER the Great Tribulation (Mt 24:29).]

Edited February 17, 2015 by Ezra

[Marilyn C]

I think this scripture is important & indicates how those of the great multitude died.

 

`They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat;....` (Rev. 7: 16)

 

Thus we read that they had been hungry, thirsty, & under severe heat. These conditions occurred in the tribulation re the trumpets & that is what they died from. They are not martyred, or murdered but die under severe climatic conditions brought on by God`s judgments upon a rebellious world.

 

Note, God is not just giving us some aside info that these people were hungry, thirsty at some time in their life but died of something else. That would make this info irrelevant. God gives us the relevant details to show when how they turned to God - when they were dying of hunger, or thirst or heat, that is when they cried out to God (as many do in wars as they are dying) & God in His great mercy heard them & received them. They will populate the New Earth as Rev. 21: 24 tells us - the nations. 

 

Marilyn.  

[WilliamL]

While most interpreters see this vast multitude as "Tribulation Saints" I believe they are the Church which has been raptured and is present in Heaven while the Tribulation is proceeding on earth.  Here are the reasons:

 

... 4. Instead, this is a picture of the Church which "escaped out of" the Great Tribulation, because the Church is NOT appointed to wrath, but unto salvation (1 Thess 5:19).

 

5. That is exactly what is written in Rev 3:10: Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

 

6. As to why this scene is between the 6th and the 7th seals, we need to be aware that the events of the first five seals began in the 1st century and have continued to this day -- false christs, false prophets, persection and martyrdom of Christians, absence of peace, warfare, famine, pestilences, earthquakes (Mt 24:4-14).  Christ called them "the beginning of sorrows".  After that comes the Abomination of Desolation and the Great Tribulation.  Since the Antichrist cannot take control (and set up the Abomination of Desolation) unless the Church and the Holy Spirit have removed their restraining influence over Satan (2 Thess 2:6,7) we see the saints in Heaven just before the Tribulation. [Actually the events of the 6th seal occur immediately AFTER the Great Tribulation (Mt 24:29).]

 

Your understanding of who they are is sound. Your understanding of the GT is not. There is no scripture that says the GT and the Wrath of God are the same thing; they most certainly are not. The GT precedes the Wrath, which Wrath comes at the 6th Seal, as Rev. 6:17 tells us: "...the great Day of His Wrath came..."

 

As to your belief that the first five Seals began in the first century, and that the AD only begins in our days, I answered this in post #36, quoted here in part:

 

" You seem to be making the common but false assumption that verse 15 [about the AD's beginning] is sequential in time from verses 4-14. However, Matt. 24 and 25 are topical, not sequential: Jesus is providing a series of topics/themes of things to take place, but they are not given in sequential order. Consider 24:23-24:

 

“Then [after the AD has occurred, and the GT has begun] if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect."

 

Now reread verses 4-5:

 

And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many."

 

These two passages are speaking of the same thing, the events of the 1st Seal, to be precise. But Jesus is saying in verse 23 that the awakening of the false Christs begins after the Abomination of Desolation occurs, during the time of the Great Tribulation. Therefore, everything prophesied in verses 4-14 actually occur after the AD, not the other way around. "

 

Sure, there have been false messiahs and wars etc. in the past; they existed even before Christ's first advent. But the events of Matt. 24:4-31 are those of "the end [lit. full completion] of the age," 24:3, which means our day. First century events were only the beginning of this age.

[WilliamL]

I think this scripture is important & indicates how those of the great multitude died.

 

`They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat;....` (Rev. 7: 16)

 

Thus we read that they had been hungry, thirsty, & under severe heat. These conditions occurred in the tribulation re the trumpets & that is what they died from. They are not martyred, or murdered but die under severe climatic conditions brought on by God`s judgments upon a rebellious world.

 

Note, God is not just giving us some aside info that these people were hungry, thirsty at some time in their life but died of something else. That would make this info irrelevant. God gives us the relevant details to show when how they turned to God - when they were dying of hunger, or thirst or heat, that is when they cried out to God (as many do in wars as they are dying) & God in His great mercy heard them & received them. They will populate the New Earth as Rev. 21: 24 tells us - the nations.

As I wrote to Ezra: "There is no scripture that says the GT and the Wrath of God are the same thing; they most certainly are not. The GT precedes the Wrath, which Wrath comes at the 6th Seal, as Rev. 6:17 tells us: "...the great Day of His Wrath came..." "

 

The GT ends, Jesus tells us, at the heavenly and earthly cataclysms of the 6th Seal = the heavenly and earthly cataclysms of Matt. 24:29-30. No scripture says the GT either begins or continues during the Trumpets and Bowls.

 

Secondly, there is nothing in Rev. 7 that says these saints before the throne had all died. Hungering and thirsting, and being struck by sun and heat are common events for every generation that has lived upon earth; these are not specific to the period of the trumpets and bowls.

[Marilyn C]

Hi WilliamL,

 

If God was referring to people from all centuries He would have included,  - sickness, disease, murder, accidents, being martyred, etc - as these are all common ways to die. We always need to read the context of the scripture & then place it in the greater context of what God is showing us concerning Christ.

 

Marilyn.