Rev. 7's great multitude before the throne

[WilliamL]

Hi WilliamL,

 

If God was referring to people from all centuries He would have included,  - sickness, disease, murder, accidents, being martyred, etc - as these are all common ways to die. We always need to read the context of the scripture & then place it in the greater context of what God is showing us concerning Christ.

 

Marilyn.

True, those are all common ways to die; but as I've pointed out, the Rev. 7 passage says nothing about all of them having died. We always need to be careful not to read our presumptions into a passage.

[Ezra]

As I wrote to Ezra: "There is no scripture that says the GT and the Wrath of God are the same thing; they most certainly are not. The GT precedes the Wrath, which Wrath comes at the 6th Seal, as Rev. 6:17 tells us: "...the great Day of His Wrath came..." "

 

If the Great Tribulation is not the wrath of God, what else is it?  The blessings of God on an ungodly and evil world?  Christians should understand that the entire Tribulation Period (Daniel's 70th week) is a time when God brings His judgments upon the ungodly and the blasphemous.  This is a time of wrath and judgment corresponding to "the Day of the LORD".  Because the Church (the saints) is not subject to wrath, it is not subject to the Tribulation or the Great Tribulation.

 

BOTH the 6th and the 7th seal judgments are an expression of the wrath of God against the ungodly, Satan, the Beast, and the False Prophet. And the events of the 6th seal actually occur "IMMEDIATELY AFTER" the Great Tribulation (Mt 24:29).  Rev 6:16,17 speaks of "the wrath of the Lamb", whereas Rev 11:18 and 14:19 speak of the wrath of God, not to mention the very fact that woes and vials of wrath are being poured out at the same time.

[Marilyn C]

Hi WilliamL,

 

This great multitude did die as they are then shown before God`s throne. They are called people of every nation, (& not the Body of Christ) & we see them again on the new earth.

 

Marilyn.

[WilliamL]

 

As I wrote to Ezra: "There is no scripture that says the GT and the Wrath of God are the same thing; they most certainly are not. The GT precedes the Wrath, which Wrath comes at the 6th Seal, as Rev. 6:17 tells us: "...the great Day of His Wrath came..." "

 

If the Great Tribulation is not the wrath of God, what else is it?  The blessings of God on an ungodly and evil world?  Christians should understand that the entire Tribulation Period (Daniel's 70th week) is a time when God brings His judgments upon the ungodly and the blasphemous.  ...

The Wrath of God is when God actively causes judgments, by sending out the 7 angels with the Trumpets, and then 7 more angels with the Bowls.

 

God sends out no angels of judgment during the 7 Seals. The Great Tribulation -- the period of the first 5 Seals -- is brought about by Satan and his minions, which include sinful leaders of nations, and also individual men gone berserk into lawlessness.

 

The Great Tribulation begins when Michael and his host cast Satan and his host down to earth, Rev. 12:7-9. The passage goes on to say,

 

12:12 ... Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.” 13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the manchild.

 

The Great Tribulation is the Wrath of the Devil, not the Wrath of God. You have not provided any scripture that says otherwise, nor can you. Neither can you provide any scripture for the length of time of the GT. No scripture says that it lasts for 7 years/times, or any other length.

[WilliamL]

This great multitude did die as they are then shown before God`s throne. They are called people of every nation, (& not the Body of Christ) & we see them again on the new earth.

You just saying they died doesn't cut the mustard. Provide scriptural evidence, if you have it. There is no rational reason to believe saints before the throne have to have died, because Paul tells us:

 

Cor. 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep [in death], but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 

1Thes 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

 

You know these verses. Why can't you accept that these raptured ones, dead and living, are the ones before the throne??

[Marilyn C]

Hi WilliamL,
 
I believe they are not the Body of Christ as they have been raptured prior to this. We see the Body of Christ, I believe around the throne in Rev. 4: 4 where they are with Christ, (`I will grant to him to sit with Me on My throne...` (Rev. 3: 21), & are crowned. We then see that these same ones (the Body of Christ) are still around God`s throne & asking who the great multitude are, (in Rev. 7: 11 - 13). Thus we can see they are different groups.

 

Marilyn.

[WilliamL]

Hi WilliamL,

 

I believe they are not the Body of Christ as they have been raptured prior to this. We see the Body of Christ, I believe around the throne in Rev. 4: 4 where they are with Christ, (`I will grant to him to sit with Me on My throne...` (Rev. 3: 21), & are crowned. We then see that these same ones (the Body of Christ) are still around God`s throne & asking who the great multitude are, (in Rev. 7: 11 - 13). Thus we can see they are different groups.

 

Marilyn.

True, these are different groups. Rev.4:4 shows 24 elders; Rev. 7 shows a great multitude. Now, which number is more likely the number of those that will be raptured?

[Marilyn C]

 

Hi WilliamL,

 

I believe they are not the Body of Christ as they have been raptured prior to this. We see the Body of Christ, I believe around the throne in Rev. 4: 4 where they are with Christ, (`I will grant to him to sit with Me on My throne...` (Rev. 3: 21), & are crowned. We then see that these same ones (the Body of Christ) are still around God`s throne & asking who the great multitude are, (in Rev. 7: 11 - 13). Thus we can see they are different groups.

 

Marilyn.

True, these are different groups. Rev.4:4 shows 24 elders; Rev. 7 shows a great multitude. Now, which number is more likely the number of those that will be raptured?

 

Hi WilliamL,

 

The number isn`t the criteria but what God has promised & His description of the groups. Christ promised the overcomers in the Body of Christ that they  would sit with Him on His throne & be kings & priests. Thus we see a representative (24 elders - 24 (2 x 12) being highest ruling position) on thrones with crowns around the throne. They sing a new song, saying that they were redeemed out of every tribe & nation etc. (Rev. 5: 9)

 

Then we see the other group also out of every tribe & nation, without crowns & not made kings & priests, & have come out of the great tribulation.

 

`They shall neither hunger any more nor thirst any more; the sun shall not strike them, nor the heat.` (Rev. 7: 16)

 

This is part of God`s description of this great multitude. And that is obviously what they endured through the great tribulation.

 

Marilyn.

[tigger398]

 

 

Rev. 7:9 NKJV After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands... 13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” 14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.” So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them."

 

1) Who are these people?

2) Why does this passage come after the 6th Seal, and before the 7th Seal?

 

These are the Tribulation Saints who did not go in the Rapture because they were not a Christian.They have come to faith during the tribulation and will be martyred and will go into the Millennium.

 

 

:thumbsup:

[Ezra]

The Great Tribulation is the Wrath of the Devil, not the Wrath of God. You have not provided any scripture that says otherwise, nor can you. Neither can you provide any scripture for the length of time of the GT. No scripture says that it lasts for 7 years/times, or any other length.

I could provide a whole raft of Scriptures, but since you are evidently not familiar with Daniel's 70th week, and how it ties in with the book of Revelation, or the prophecies concerning the Day of the LORD, or "the time of Jacob's trouble",  it will not be profitable at this time. 

 

Suffice it to say that the Daniel's 70th week is divided into two segments of 3 1/2 years.  The first half consists of Satanic Deception + Satanic Attacks against Tribulation Saints + God's Wrathful Judgments. 

 

The second half is the result of the setting up of the Abomination of Desolation and is the Great Tribulation = the Day of the Lord = God's Wrath in its final phase (and Jesus said that because of the elect those days would be shortened, which then would be reduced to about 6 1/2 years). 

 

So the Great Tribulation is God's wrath against Satan and the ungodly, not Satan's wrath against humanity or the saints. Which gets us back to the OP.  This is not something which the Church will endure, therefore there will be a pre-Tribulation Rapture.  Those are the saints in Rev 7:9-17 ("a GREAT MULTITUDE which no man could number").

 

It's amazing how keen so many Christians (mid-Trib and post-Trib) are to want the Church to go through the Great Tribulation.  It makes absolutely no sense.  (BTW you will not find the word "church" between Rev 4:1 and Rev 18:24, because the Church is in the New Jerusalem during that period).